Orcs and the "gamefication" of Middle Earth

[Hobgoblin]

I'm not sure I completely agree with OP.

There's definitely an element of all the different types of orcs / goblins looking different (uruk-hai being "swart" over the Moria goblins being "green or pale skinned") and differing in size. Obviously it's not a complete and distinctive difference between them but there's definitely differences in the types of goblinoids in Middle-Earth.

Yes, Tolkien clearly indicates that there are lots of different breeds of orcs. But he makes a broad distinction between "fighting orcs" (uruks) and the smaller kinds ("snaga", at least according to the uruks). Within those two classes, there are clearly different breeds, but again and again he distinguishes between two broad sorts, not three, as most games tend to do.

But you're actually making my point for me when you talk about 'Moria goblins being "green or pale skinned"'. The orcs in Moria are never described like as being green or pale. Here are the descriptions from the Moria sections of LotR:

"'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. 'And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor.'

"...a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot, leaped into the chamber; behind him his followers clustered in the doorway. His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear."

"Beyond the fire he saw swarming black figures: there seemed to be hundreds of orcs."

[emphasis mine]

Those are the only descriptions of orcs that mention colour in Moria - and it's "black" and "swart" only. Now, the third quotation probably refers to silhouettes, and the first may refer to livery: the huge chieftain is both swart of hide and black of armour. But there's no other mention of orcish colour at all: no "pale-skinned" orcs, and no "green" ones either.

Also, why single out the Moria orcs as "goblins"? They're called that twice in the text (though not in the Moria chapters, where they're always called "orcs" or "Orcs"); but the Uruk-hai of Isengard are also called "goblins" twice and, by implication, a third time. And there's also a "goblin" reference that includes both the Isengarders and the Northerners. Too complicate matters, some of the Northerners were Uruks in the first place (see above).

So, when I say that you're making my point for me, what I mean is that you're reading things into the text that aren't actually in it, but come from the "gameosphere" - which was exactly my point about "gamefication"!

[Cubs]

One of the things that I still scratch my head about is the use of the word 'black' or 'swart' to describe them. I'm never 100% sure whether this is supposed to literally be black skin, or just a dark complexion (brown?green?grey?), or simply a literary liberty to describe someone wearing dark clothes or being of a dark demeanour.

When painting my black orcs, I do prefer to have them as literally black skinned, harking back (to me) to the black gorillas in Planet of the Apes, being bigger and meaner than the smaller chimps or orang-utans.

[Hobgoblin]

Oddly enough, I got one of these fellows via eBay today, along with some others):



That range of early (1976) Ral Partha orcs is interesting because it's so clearly based on Tolkien's descriptions and not on the "secondary" stuff that began to amass a few years later. So, it's about dwarf-sized, with downward-pointing fangs, wields a scimitar and has a bow on its back and an eye on its shield. The not-Isengard equivalents are only a little bigger.

Once Citadel get going with their Fantasy Tribe and C15 ranges, though, everything changes (barring Asgard, where Jez Goodwin seems to have been inspired much more by Tolkien than by Gygax).

I'm not for a moment arguing that those 1976 figures are nicer than the C15 range, though!

[Hobgoblin]

One of the things that I still scratch my head about is the use of the word 'black' or 'swart' to describe them. I'm never 100% sure whether this is supposed to literally be black skin, or just a dark complexion (brown?green?grey?), or simply a literary liberty to describe someone wearing dark clothes or being of a dark demeanour.

Yes, it's far from clear. The only orc that's explicitly black-skinned in Tolkien is the little tracker in Mordor (which seems to imply that his companion, a black Uruk of Mordor, is not actually black-skinned).

And then you've got the fact that in medieval literature, "black" can mean "dark-complexioned" in application to Welsh or Scots people. I presume that refers to the "Celtic type" with very dark hair and eyes and, typically, rather fair skin. That's the idiom that Tolkien's operating in at least some of the time.

And, on top of that, you've got the rather awkward-sounding letter where he says that orcs were "sallow" like "hideous and repulsive versions of ... the least lovely Mongol types". "Swart" and "black" would certainly cover Central Asian people (darkish skin, black hair) in that medieval idiom. And of course the half-orcs in LotR are described as (a) looking like orcs and (b) being sallow - even though no orcs are described as "sallow" in the book itself.

Then there's clothing too, as you say - certainly, the orcs of Isengard, the North and Mordor all do sport black liveries (white badge on black; red badge on black; black and red banners, respectively).

When painting my black orcs, I do prefer to have them as literally black skinned, harking back (to me) to the black gorillas in Planet of the Apes, being bigger and meaner than the smaller chimps or orang-utans.

And absolutely tremendous they look too - those Ugezod commandos of yours are peerless!

When I saw the Tim Burton Planet of the Apes, the first thing that struck me was that I preferred his gorilla soldiers to Peter Jackson's orcs - as orcs!

[Cubs]

I'm (re) reading Slaine The Horned God at the moment (stay with me) and I'm struck by how Ukko (although a dwarf) seems very goblin-like, whereas Robym (the other dwarf in the story) seems more like an orc, although of a similar size. Other than breadth of shoulder, one interesting feature was the jawline - Ukko's goblin-like face features an overhanging top lip and weak chin, whereas Robym's face has a square jaw, with rows of sharp teeth. Perhaps it was taken to extremes in the old Citadel C-series orcs with their jaws like open sock drawers, but it's an easy way of making the distinction clear. Another one for me was that goblins have bulbous or long noses whereas orcs have snub noses. I don't know how these traditions got started!

[Hobgoblin]

I'm (re) reading Slaine The Horned God at the moment (stay with me) and I'm struck by how Ukko (although a dwarf) seems very goblin-like, whereas Robym (the other dwarf in the story) seems more like an orc, although of a similar size.

I dimly - very dimly - remember that. I must reread Slaine.

Other than breadth of shoulder, one interesting feature was the jawline - Ukko's goblin-like face features an overhanging top lip and weak chin, whereas Robym's face has a square jaw, with rows of sharp teeth. Perhaps it was taken to extremes in the old Citadel C-series orcs with their jaws like open sock drawers, but it's an easy way of making the distinction clear. Another one for me was that goblins have bulbous or long noses whereas orcs have snub noses. I don't know how these traditions got started!

I think it was really Kev Adams who cemented that tradition. If you look at the C-series night goblins, there were a few with "orcish" faces - short or upturned noses and tusks (e.g. the chief with two swords and the variants of the Grom's Goblin Guard trooper and musician, as well as their originals). And you also had the red goblin champion (also a Runequest Dark Troll), who was droopy-nosed but orc-sized. Those crossovers persisted into the C12 range, the first range of goblins that Kev Adams was involved with. If you look at the Perry sculpts in that range, most of them have "orcish" faces: Archer, Bowman, Basher, Shield Slammer, Lip Keeper (my favourite Citadel slottabased goblin), Calf Spearer, Slug Slinger, Spearman, Head Taker, Guard and Mace Wielder:



Those guys work really well as smaller relatives of the C15 orcs - they're scrawny, large-headed and generally tusked; I'm painting some up at the moment to go in a mixed warband with C15s. The Adams ones are a bit different, though - really their own thing, and more like smaller versions of Perry trolls than Perry orcs.

The other factor is that the night, great and red goblins (originally red orcs, of course!) are replaced with just "goblins" - and the droopy noses of the great goblins and some of the night goblins take over after that last flourish of orcishness from the Perrys.

[Sunjester]

Oddly enough, I got one of these fellows via eBay today, along with some others):



That range of early (1976) Ral Partha orcs is interesting because it's so clearly based on Tolkien's descriptions and not on the "secondary" stuff that began to amass a few years later. So, it's about dwarf-sized, with downward-pointing fangs, wields a scimitar and has a bow on its back and an eye on its shield. The not-Isengard equivalents are only a little bigger.

I had 40-50 of these guys back in the late 70s. I wish I still had them as they just scream "Tolkien" to me, sure they are crude compared with today's standards, but they certainly fit the bill for me!

[Hobgoblin]

I had 40-50 of these guys back in the late 70s. I wish I still had them as they just scream "Tolkien" to me, sure they are crude compared with today's standards, but they certainly fit the bill for me!

Couldn't agree more! The irony of this whole thread is that I don't actually do any Middle Earth wargaming (though I've toyed with putting together some HOTT armies). But if I did, I'd want these guys for the orcs, with some Asgard ones and Ral Partha giant goblins mixed in. For one thing, they're properly equipped - mail, scimitars and bows.

They're also a great barometer of Tom Meier's progress as a sculptor; he made these just three years before the giant goblins, which are still pretty much state of the art.

[Paboook]

Could Northstar be the saviour of true Middle-Earth fans? I can see great potential with slightly cut of legs (easy trick I did with GW plastic orcs already).

[Hobgoblin]

They do look good! And from the photo of the painted examples, they seem shorter than a man and not much taller than a dwarf - so perfect for uruks!

[Nord]

Could Northstar be the saviour of true Middle-Earth fans? I can see great potential with slightly cut of legs (easy trick I did with GW plastic orcs already).

Bullshit. True Middle Earth fans? If you don't like this aesthetic you are not a true ME fan? What makes these more "true" than any other rendition of goblin ever sculpted, other than your conviction than you know what's best?

As it happens, I quite like these sculpts and may well be adding them to my collection. But I won't be doing that because I'm a true Middle Earth fan!

[Angrypantz]

The North Star goblins are really good. I look forward to seeing what the rest of the army gets as time goes on.

@Nord I think it’s safe to say that these are closer to the literature than has been around for a long time.

[Nord]

Really? Show me the piece of literature that matches these figures then. Are these the figures that look like corrupted elves, or men, or apes?

Tolkien was notoriously vague in his descriptions of the orcs - even in how they were named, never mind how they looked. It's just that artwork that was around in the 70's and 80's has been taken up as the look Tolkien intended (after he was dead mind you, so no chance of corroboration). That art was then made into minis and suddenly they are the one, true way to sculpt orcs/goblins.

These sculpts might match some of the artists impressions from the 70's and 80's, but whether that makes them close to the literature is pure speculation. I wish people would stop claiming that sculpts match his vision, when the only clear thing is that nobody has a clue what his vision was.

[Cubs]

[Severian]

Great to see this thread walking amongst us once more.

Obviously we don't have any direct evidence of how Tolkien thought orcs should look (there are some pictures of spindly goblins in the Father Christmas Letters, but I'm not sure they're really admissible... and also he was notoriously bad at drawing figures, unlike his landscapes, which are really rather good) but there are some hints in the books, which Hobgoblin has diligently collected here.

How we piece those hints together into a full picture of an orc is something each of us, insofar as we think about it at all, will probably do in our own way, influenced by all manner of things. If we can find figures that fit our mental picture, more or less, then that's a bonus. But there are lots of excellent orcs and goblins out there of all shapes and sizes; and these North Star ones look as if they'll be a fine addition to the mix.

That North Star sprue picture looks very good; the scimitars, as well as being the right shape and size, look as if they won't immediately tend to break off...

One factor in the whole "swart orc" question is Tolkien's 1932/34 academic article "Sigelwara land", where he examines the name used by Anglo-Saxon writers for the Ethiopians, and concludes that the original referent of the name (which was (from memory) originally, he reckoned, *sigelhearwan) was in fact the soot-blackened and red-eyed fire giants who later crop up in extant Norse mythology.

So "swart-faced" in this sense was probably meant to remind us in the first instance of them, who in some unrecorded Germanic legendry were the malevolent "infantry of the Old War", a role taken in Tolkien's writings by the orcs/goblins (a name used absolutely synonymously by him, at least in intention, as far as I can tell).

Not sure if this helps with painting them, mind you.