Best Fantasy Skirmish Game?

[Nord]

Second, one thing that Dragon Rampant does well is balance. It's hard to get a "killer" side, especially when scenarios and scenery are unpredictable (those Elite Riders are great ... in good terrain). And it's great that there's no "racially superior" army: hobgoblin heavy infantry fight just as well as chaos-warrior heavy infantry, and why shouldn't they? Adding "racial" traits to the game would seem, to me, to lead it into a rather murky world of "list-building" and maximising. I like Dan's original fantasy retinues for Lion Rampant, which are gleefully diverse - dwarfs and elves and men and whatnot on the good side, and skeletons and orcs and wizards and whatever on the bad. Adding racial profiles would tend, I think, to dilute the "use whatever you fancy" ethos that the book encourages ("Hmm ... these orcs look a bit tough for the official profile, so I'll have to get some new, weedier-looking ones").

What you say here is true. And obviously this side of it appeals to you, and many others. But to me, boiling everything down to a few profiles removes the fantasy. It removes that variety, or the racial differences. Why shouldn't hobgoblins fight as well as chaos warriors? Because they are crappy fighters whereas chaos warriors are truly elite? There's no room for the differences I became accustomed to in other fantasy systems. There's no quirks, no depth. It's a decent enough starter system, and I think it works well in the medieval setting, but it's a little bland for high fantasy. I don't really think that adding in that variety necessarily leads to list building and min-maxxing - it can do of course, but it could also lead to more depth, more variety. Horses for courses and all that. It's a nice lite system with some flexibility, but it lacks crunchy bits.

[MattofWar]

I think it's a common characteristic of most historical games that have been extended into fantasy to have that issue.  The foundation for the games are ones where everyone is human and usually equipped very similarly and then you try to make it represent the wide array of possible fantastic creatures.  So you end up with this balancing act of needing to push things so you can represent the fantastic but not wanting to go so far that the game stops working in the same fashion as the historical one it is based off of.

I prefer games that are designed from the ground up for their genre than ones that are drifted or extended, but every now and again, I'm sure some rules authors make a great fantasy game that started out as a historical one (or vice versa, I suppose).

[beefcake]

The only downside to dragon rampant I found is that you really need to agree on what units should be reduced or single models as I recently played a game where I had a unit of 12 bellicose foot that couldn't maneuver well at all and my opponent put down a werewolf base on a 20mm square base, treated as light infantry, that was able to fit through tiny gaps where my fullsize unit was stuck with not being able to move because of the 3" rule. Still easily balanced.

[SotF]

I've enjoyed Song of Blades and Heroes, though i started with Of Gods and Mortals for that ruleset.

Honestly, if you want to play it, read the battle reports and start picking what minis you want, then next month, I think, when the Advanced Rulebook is coming out. The main reason is that while the game is rather quick and easy to pick up and lets you use pretty much any mini you want, the revised book isn't really the easiest thing to work through and the unit design rules have heavily changed.

Also use the online unit builder rather than trying to work out the math, it's far better there...

[Dilettante Gamer]

What you say here is true. And obviously this side of it appeals to you, and many others. But to me, boiling everything down to a few profiles removes the fantasy. It removes that variety, or the racial differences. Why shouldn't hobgoblins fight as well as chaos warriors? Because they are crappy fighters whereas chaos warriors are truly elite? There's no room for the differences I became accustomed to in other fantasy systems. There's no quirks, no depth. It's a decent enough starter system, and I think it works well in the medieval setting, but it's a little bland for high fantasy. I don't really think that adding in that variety necessarily leads to list building and min-maxxing - it can do of course, but it could also lead to more depth, more variety. Horses for courses and all that. It's a nice lite system with some flexibility, but it lacks crunchy bits.

Totally get where you're coming from about the race/faction "quirks" and "crunchy bits" (nice that) but, over time, I just didn't have the stamina to keep up with all of WFB ever-changing special rules for armies, units, tchotchkes. It felt like preparing for a chemistry exam.  

Now LotR SBG is a fine set of rules, but would require modding to bring in non-Tolkein races and creatures. I don't have the wherewithal for that neither.

I guess what I'm saying is that my horses are opting for smoother, Lion Rampant/Dragon Rampant, courses for now.  I'm seeking to build variety and color through scenarios and, as posted today, linked scenarios into mini campaigns.  As the Russians say, "Kazhdi drohcheet, kak ohn hocheet."

Another tired WFB player for LR/DR.  

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

I have never played the LotR SBG but have read mainly positive things about it.  I see there are a lot of Returnof the King SBG books available second hand.  Is this a stand alone rule book or is it a supplement?

I am enjoying Dragon Rampant as my first foray into fantasy gaming.  As I am playing solo at the moment I feel free to adjust troop types/make my own.

[Vermis]

Mayhem, likewise (though that is more "mass battle" - some people play it as skirmish, but I'd rather use another system for that).

Isn't Havoc Bombshell's/Brent's fantasy skirmish game?

http://bombshell-games.com/havoc/

Anyone tried that?

What you say here is true. And obviously this side of it appeals to you, and many others. But to me, boiling everything down to a few profiles removes the fantasy. It removes that variety, or the racial differences. Why shouldn't hobgoblins fight as well as chaos warriors? Because they are crappy fighters whereas chaos warriors are truly elite? There's no room for the differences I became accustomed to in other fantasy systems. There's no quirks, no depth.

I'd generally agree with DG - I get where you're coming from, I've thought like that myself from time to time; but I've become a bit wary of games where too much is made of an individual unit or model's special quirks and rules, over the core rules. To the point where all the imagination and variety goes into getting the right collection or sequence of stat cards... or warscrolls.
I know that's a bit too black and white, and there are shades in between, but at the mo I think some of the imagination in the Warhammer level of stats and tweaks could be diverted back into the minis.

[Barbarus]

Well, I dont wanna run some advertisement for my game here or anything, but at this point in the discussion I just cant help but mention it...

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=81709.0

I transformed SAGA into a fantasy game because of all the reasons you guys mentioned. Yes, I too feel that you take out the "fantasy" in a game if you go and "streamline" all the profiles...
on the other hand I like my games "easy to learn, hard to master" and games like Warhammer are just one constant search in the rule books for a certain passage...
which I find really annoying and disrupting my gaming experience.

SAGA kind of solves ALL of those problems.
It is indeed easy to learn and hard to master. (Even though some people play it in the "beer & bretzel"-fashion.)
It offers a ton of tactical potential and a lot of differentiation between factions.
But it does all this while using just a handful of profiles.

In my opinion its the best Skirmish Game on the market.
And I need my weekly dose of "Fantasy", so the logical thing was to implement SAGA as a fantasy system.

The whole mechanic with the "Battleboards" is just a stroke of genius.
It makes the game sooo versatile, you can basically go and use SAGA as an "engine" and design games around whatever setting you like.
All factions have the same profiles and you simply change the COMPLETE feel and style of gaming for each faction with this ONE tool, you might call it a "control center".


 

[seldon]

Havoc is skirmish fantasy10-20 guys per side. I have it, it is a lot of fun to read. It is quite complex and very rich. In the end I've gone with Brink of Battle/Epic Heroes but I would love to try Havoc one day. The mechanics are very original.

[abbot_amaury]

Another nonimation:
'Warband: Goalsystem Fantasy Skirmish': still in the test phase (for quiet some time now) - but I really like what I've been reading so far. The first playtest version is available here.

Hagen

[Gibby]

As someone who has bought a tonne of different rulesets I have to say that my absolutely favourite has to be Otherworld Fantasy Skirmish. Certainly for games with a small number of figures, it can't really be topped in terms of what I want from a game. It has enough detail to not be bland without being a headache, and I really enjoy coming up with characters and such using the profiles and options anyway. It certainly has depth and lots of scope. I hope an official campaign system comes out, but if not, it's easy to make one up.

For larger skirmishes, we've enjoyed Dragon Rampant so far.

[wulfgar22]

I hope an official campaign system comes out, but if not, it's easy to make one up.

There are plans for that, I believe. Not sure if they will be included in the upcoming monster book or a separate book after that.

[MattofWar]

Another nonimation:
'Warband: Goalsystem Fantasy Skirmish': still in the test phase (for quiet some time now) - but I really like what I've been reading so far. The first playtest version is available here.

A friend of mine uses the goal system (in the form of the latest version of SuperSystem) for everything.  The way he puts it, comic book super heroes have literally fought everything from cavemen to dragons to nazis, so a rules system that does super heroes well can probably handle everything fantastical you can come up with.  The only downside apparently, is statting things up requires understanding the system pretty well.  I'm guessing the Warband: Goalsystem Fantasy Skirmish is going to do all that work in advance.

[Lovejoy]

As someone who has bought a tonne of different rulesets I have to say that my absolutely favourite has to be Otherworld Fantasy Skirmish.

Based on that recommendation, I bought a copy today at Vappa. So if it's rubbish, I'm blaming you! 

[Gibby]

I don't think you will be disappointed.

Here are a couple of battle reports of mine:

Attack of the Goblins
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=83116.0

Wrath of the Ettin
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=83118.0

As you can see, it works pretty well even if one force is just one big angry monster.