More Tolkien Issues - Trolls, Elves, Magic

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

I have copied this from the post I just put on the Dux Rampant forum:

Moving on from Orcs and the like (by the way, great thread on Lead Adventure Forum, Hobgoblin) a few more things to ponder.
The first is the least important.  If it is clear that orcs are not green, can we decide what colour trolls were?  I'm guessing a mix of greys and browns as they turn into stone in the sun and I would assume that they are therefore made of the earth itself.

Next is - pointy ears or not for elves?  I believe there is nothing concrete either way in Tolkien.   We can be fairly certain that few elves were blond(e) - most were dark haired.  They were not thin as in many fantasy games, but were quite strong in body (although didn't have the same bulk as men).  My feeling is elves are much like humans in overall shape, except they are a little more lithe (but still possess great strength), are taller and more graceful.  Clearly, they are ageless (not necessarily young, but have a quality where it is hared to pin down an age), much better looking (although at least two elf maidens enjoyed a bit of rough), and I feel the ears are probably slightly more pointy, but not obviously so.  Therefore most thinner human miniatures are suitable for elves.

Finally, the biggie! Magic.  How to depict this in Dragon Rampant?  The elves didn't really understand the term. Magic seemed something that was innate to the individual, not something learnt from a book or scroll.  Most magic seems rooted in the nature of an individual or object. Gandalf using a ward to keep a door closed in Moria (doors close and can be locked) and the Balrog trying to open the same door.  Gandalf uses pine cones to make burning missiles to fire at the wargs.  Luthien uses the woolfs hame and the cloak of Thuringwethil to alter the appearance of herself and Beren.  This is more than just wearing a disguise, but she also needs these items to create her deception - it couldn't be done without some "raw materials".
If the magic is particularly powerful the individual seems to have to give something of themselves to make it eg the One Ring gives Sauron power over the various races of Middle Earth, but he is also tied to the Ring and, ultimately, is left vulnerable.  Morgoth diminishes in power as he creates his various evil works or things to do his bidding.
Some magic is more in the nature of craft.  Such as swords with special powers (normally quite subtle), Silmarils, rings.  I wonder whether this extends to things like Barad Dur and Dol Guldur.  There is something magical in their construction and they are destroyed in magical ways - Galadriel throws own the walls of Dul Guldur and opens it's pits at the end of the War of the Ring.  Rather than blasting down the walls, I see her dispelling the magic that wasv used to build and strengthen the walls.
The final type of magic seems to be song, such as that of Luthien to make the denizens of Angband go to sleep.

The magic is Tolkien is of a more subtle nature. I can see things like Bog Thee, Befuddle Thee and Dragon's Breath fit well.  Power Bolt possibly doesn't fit so well.

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

I will just quickly add that some of the comments about magic I had seen on another blog some time ago, so this is somewhat plagiarised.

[throwsFireball]

From what I remember, didn't Morgoth basically turn into a walking magical nuclear meltdown near the end and most of his power was squandered just by him walking around and spreading his evil?

[Arthadan]

I have copied this from the post I just put on the Dux Rampant forum:

Moving on from Orcs and the like (by the way, great thread on Lead Adventure Forum, Hobgoblin) a few more things to ponder.
The first is the least important.  If it is clear that orcs are not green, can we decide what colour trolls were?  I'm guessing a mix of greys and browns as they turn into stone in the sun and I would assume that they are therefore made of the earth itself.

Only the Stone-trolls turn to stone! Remember the Hill-trolls pushing Grond and wielding heavy hammers in the Pelennor, or the Olog-hai. I'll post some quotes later. Also, an important thing to conside regarding Trolls is size, I think most of them shouldn't be taller than twice the normal height of a person (at most).

Next is - pointy ears or not for elves?  I believe there is nothing concrete either way in Tolkien.   We can be fairly certain that few elves were blond(e) - most were dark haired.  They were not thin as in many fantasy games, but were quite strong in body (although didn't have the same bulk as men).  My feeling is elves are much like humans in overall shape, except they are a little more lithe (but still possess great strength), are taller and more graceful.  Clearly, they are ageless (not necessarily young, but have a quality where it is hared to pin down an age), much better looking (although at least two elf maidens enjoyed a bit of rough), and I feel the ears are probably slightly more pointy, but not obviously so.  Therefore most thinner human miniatures are suitable for elves.

This one is easily adressed. Here is a description of Hobbits in one of the Tolkien letters:

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)

So both, Hobbits and Elves, have slightly pointy ears.

[Hobgoblin]

The cave troll in Moria was "greenish" (and, like the Pobble and George MacDonald's goblins, lacks toes):

"A huge arm and shoulder, with a dark skin of greenish scales, wa thrust through the widening gap. Then a great, flat toeless foot was forced through below."

[jon_1066]

The great thing about power bolt is that you can simply rename it to Flaming Pine Cones and keep the same effect!

[Arthadan]

But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dur.

Maybe Olog skin could be similar to Orc skin? However if they were "harder than stone", I guess they'd be covered in scales.

[Hobgoblin]

Maybe Olog skin could be similar to Orc skin? However if they were "harder than stone", I guess they'd be covered in scales.

And they're also "quite unlike" Orcs in "fashion of body". The hill-trolls of Gorgoroth at the end of Book V of LotR are widely assumed to be Olog-hai; they appear to have scales.

[Vermis]

As Hobgoblin mentioned, ironically trolls were green! Although I personally think there was a bit more variety in them. In The Hobbit, with Bert, Bill and Tom:

Three very large persons sitting around a very large fire of beech-logs... But they were trolls. Obviously trolls. Even Bilbo, in spite of his sheltered life, could see that: from the great heavy faces of them, and their size, and the shape of their legs, not to mention their language, which was not drawing-room fashion at all, at all.

No mention of their being green, which might have been notable enough to, er, note. That might indicate a skintone that Bilbo didn't think was too unfamiliar. Although maybe the sheer size and shape of them was enough to take in. And the colour-distorting effect of the fire on a dark night, in a forest. But that might be thinking too hard about it.

(Also, mentions of 'the shape of their legs' and 'toeless feet' makes me imagine troll legs more like this than this. But that's even more my own wild imaginings)

Elves: aye. It seems like they were 'human+' rather than humanoid stick insects. (Can't remember if it was explicitly mentioned somewhere) I also agree that magic was largely an innate ability or passed-on power, though from the way the elves describe it, I think it's a little difficult for non-'magical' beings to imagine. Like describing the colour red to a dog, or the colours that birds see to a human.

[Hobgoblin]

As Hobgoblin mentioned, ironically trolls were green! Although I personally think there was a bit more variety in them.

I think there's plenty of support for variety. Only the cave troll is described as "greenish". Trolls seem to have had diverse origins:

"I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence... they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls, beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested." (JRRT's letters)

And no one knows what was involved in producing the Olog-hai:

"That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known."

So I think there are good grounds for assuming a variety of colours. There's no wrong or right answer for anything other than the cave troll, as far as I know.

[Charlie_]

Do elves have beards?

[Hobgoblin]

Do elves have beards?

Cirdan does in LotR - as do one or two others in the Silmarillion, I think. Tolkien says somewhere that they don't usually have beards until they reach "the third cycle of life" - but I don't think that's ever defined.

[Conquistador]

I wait to read more with anticipation.   

Good questions.   

I loved OD&D but it definitely was a spin-off and slightly twisted one at that from (more than just) LOTR, so it and GW made some misrepresentations of Tolkienian fantasy elements that have become "accepted" by many fantasy gamers.  Not wrong, just not LOTR canon.

[Hammers]

I do not think Tolkien, from a narrative point of view, was meant to be fully understood. I therefore think a magic system for ME should be subtle and just "typically themed" to each race. Something like...
* Elves: enhancement of all things good, repulsion of evil, prolongment
* Dwarves: heightened craftsmanship
* Good men: little magic abilities apart from healing, high men excel in most endeavors and can draw strength from fate
* Beornings: shape changing
* Hobbits: finding things, luck, hiding
* Evil men: witchcraft
* Orcs: corruption

Something like that.

[Hammers]

Do elves have beards?

They may. Cirdan had a beard.