Kickstarter this... Kickstarter that... *sigh*

[Stavros Banjo]

Is it just me or is anybody else sick to the back teeth of endless Kickstarters? What ever happened to the good old days when companies simply released stuff, we bought it, everyone was happy.

Why does EVERYTHING these days have to trundle through the cursed Kickstarter route?! 

Sorry, just felt like a whinge about it.

[Elbows]

I'm going to sum it up very simply.

Business proposition A: Create product, obtain loan or invest own capital - hope for sales to avoid business failure.

Business proposition B: Design product, launch Kickstarter.  Get capital investment, market research and guaranteed sales before ever beginning product.

It removes a lot of risk (and some would argue passes the risk onto the backers).  Why get a loan when you can get money up front?  It's really just a pre-order system.  Even the biggest baddest gaming companies are small potatoes when it comes to business size.  The vast majority of gaming companies exist on a slim margin and one big financial mistake (ie. a garbage product that falters) can cause them to go bankrupt.

I don't blame anyone for using Kickstarter.  In addition the biggest bonus is judging market interest.  If you ask for $20,000...get $5,000....you'll can the project or go back to the drawing board.  If you ask for $20,000 and get $23,000...you'll produce the product but realize there isn't loads of interest.  Sometimes you ask for $20,000 and get $780,000....and you realize you have a potential hit on your hands.

I think it's here to stay.  Personally I've been reasonably lucky with Kickstarter products...and from a backer standpoint I can't argue with the free stuff.

[The Voivod]

Privateer press openly admits in their last kickstarter it's about exposure.
Kickstarters reach a bigger audience, allowing the product to make a name for itself.

I think it's the way to go in this market.
I also don't see the problem. If you want the product, but don't want to back, you simply wait for retail release.

[Lovejoy]

What ever happened to the good old days when companies simply released stuff, we bought it, everyone was happy.

What happened is those good old days never existed...
Speaking from personal experience, when we released our first range of scifi minis, we had loads of people saying they would buy them; but very few people actually doing so. We lost a lot of money.

We took them off sale several months later. Then a year or so back, we ran a short Kickstarter for just one part of the range - the robots. And in a week we made 10 times as much as we had on the range up to then. Kickstarter effectively puts a time limit on a buyer's decision; if they want the minis, they have to do it now, instead of sticking them on a mental checklist to buy 'sometime'.

When Pig Iron announced they were shutting down recently, there was a flurry of comments across the forums, most of which consisted of 'Aw shame, I'd always planned to buy some of those...'
People 'plan' to buy, but most don't actually buy. Kickstarter forces their hand.

Kickstarters reach a bigger audience, allowing the product to make a name for itself.

Agreed 100% - it's awesome for marketing; it lets you keep exposure going for the life of the project, rather than just the launch day, and it generates excitement.

If you want the product, but don't want to back, you simply wait for retail release.

With the caveat that if it's a small business, the product may never see retail if people don't back. Or, it may never get released to retail anyway; we've done some small KSs that fulfilled to all the backers, but won't be available to anyone else.

[Harry Faversham]

People 'plan' to buy, but most don't actually buy. Kickstarter forces their hand.

Yer right, the next time a bloke like you ''forces' a bloke like me to part with my hard earned... will be the first time!

[Lovejoy]

Yer right, the next time a bloke like you ''forces' a bloke like me to part with my hard earned... will be the first time!

I didn't say 'A bloke like me'; I said 'Kickstarter'. And I'm not really talking about forcing you to spend; what a Kickstarter does, by being time-bound, is force you to make a decision. So people don't just file it away for 'next week/maybe sometime/never'; they have to decide whether or not they are really interested.

[Connectamabob]

I didn't say 'A bloke like me'; I said 'Kickstarter'.

Not a meaningful distinction, if this is one of the reasons you choose to use kickstarter. Which you did say. I mean, obviously you're not responsible for other people's KSs, but if a potential customer resents these tactics in general, it is logical for them to resent someone who embraces using them.

Personally, I don't pay attention to KS much, as I want to buy, not gamble. A KS that continued to accept pledges after it started shipping rewards I could maybe do, as that would in theory then be an actual purchase instead of an unreliable preorder. However, a KS that closed before or when shipping started, with no intention of continuing sales elsewhere... that would just be a dick seller... and a stupid one too, for kicking money out of bed. I'm far, far from the only person to take the above attitude to KS, and in fact I would bet that people of this disposition are actually the majority of the market. For all its buzzworthyness, it's actually an extremely niche way to sell stuff, and one which by it's nature limits it's market along lines with no correlation to the products' own demographics. The low risk in KS for the entrepreneur strikes me as a guided cage.

When someone does this on KS:

Or, it may never get released to retail anyway; we've done some small KSs that fulfilled to all the backers, but won't be available to anyone else.

They're not coming close to the amount of sales they could be doing unless the product is extremely niche, and the market is a small, unified social group of which the seller is a member. Otherwise you're just drawing a venn diagram of "people who want this thing" and "people who like to KS", and only selling to the little bit in the overlap.

[Timbor]

I don't know about that... the fact that many retailers who actually are the ones producing and selling product constantly state that they sell more stuff and make more profits by using KS seems a bit more concrete to me than assuming that the majority of the market does not want that.  If the majority of the market did not like/want stuff sold via KS, I don't think it would take off as it has.

The marketing platform alone is huge. What 'new' gamer is going to search through google to find something like Oathsworn miniatures specifically when they have never heard of them? But if they go to KS, tons of these little sellers are all bunched together in an easy-to-find place.

To me, your argument sounds a lot like what people likely said back when online shopping was becoming a 'thing'...

[3 fingers]

To be honest I wouldn't buy from a kickstarter again unless it's lancer miniatures as I know he sends stuff out quick,
When I done the Warploque Arcworlde kickstarter it put me off them as I waited what a year for the miniatures and God knows how long for the rulebook,by time it was all in my hands I had already started selling warbands off,due to loosing interest,
And from what I have read online several kickstarters have had delays in actually providing the merchandise,I would sooner buy when it's forsale online an even pay bit extra.

[Timbor]

Yep, and that is part of the risk that has been passed from banks offering loans (possible default) to the backers (possible non-delivery/inferior product). I would say that the KS-honeymoon has passed, as there are now many people vying for funds, with many backers being more cautious due to poor previous experiences. You just have to approach it as a not-for-sure thing, just like any investment capital.

While there is the risk of products not making retail after a KS campaign, well if you really want it you can get on the KS. Otherwise, perhaps just console yourself in thinking that it probably would never have happened anyway had the KS route not been available?

One trick you can try, and sometimes works (especially in larger campaigns) is to pledge $1 so that you are a backer, then a few months later once the pledge manager is available (and more product has been previewed) you can up your pledge using paypal. Not all projects allow you to do this, but many do. There is the caveat that the project may fail to fund or reach stretch goals if too many people do that, but hey... 

[Daeothar]

I think Kickstarter is to online sales what online sales was at one point to mail ordering; just the next evolutionary step in commercial tools available to manufacturers.

They, again, provide less financial risk and/or exposure to the seller, whilst still providing the customer with the desired products, be it in a slightly different way. Remember; pre-ordering has been around since before mail order, and crowdfunding is the epitome of pre-ordering, really.

And who has not heard of, or experienced themselves, deceitful mail ordering back in the eighties, when the only way of contacting was writing a letter or attempting to call the offending company?

Remember; most of those mail orders were then made through either photocopied ordering forms, or even letters directed at the company behind some tiny add in a shady (gaming) magazine. One had to either send cash or cheque along in an envelope or transfer money internationally, and the wait was often counted in months rather than days.

Getting scammed or disappointed is not a new byproduct of crowdfunding; it's been around for ages, and sadly, will for the foreseeable future.

Different kinds of commercial tools over the years: brick and mortar stores, mail ordering, webstores, ebay and crowdfunding. And every time a new type of  sales was introduced, there were people not happy and disappointed.

In my opinion, crowdfunding is still taking getting used to for a lot of people, but eventually, it will be a much a fixture of the commercial landscape as brick and mortar stores used to be (which have been closing left and right for some time now, and I'm not just referring to game stores either), all the way up to the moment when another new commercial tool pops up, and the cycle begins anew...

[Lovejoy]

Not a meaningful distinction, if this is one of the reasons you choose to use kickstarter. Which you did say. I mean, obviously you're not responsible for other people's KSs, but if a potential customer resents these tactics in general, it is logical for them to resent someone who embraces using them.

Personally, I don't pay attention to KS much, as I want to buy, not gamble. A KS that continued to accept pledges after it started shipping rewards I could maybe do, as that would in theory then be an actual purchase instead of an unreliable preorder. However, a KS that closed before or when shipping started, with no intention of continuing sales elsewhere... that would just be a dick seller... and a stupid one too, for kicking money out of bed. I'm far, far from the only person to take the above attitude to KS, and in fact I would bet that people of this disposition are actually the majority of the market.

So I'm to be resented for the way I do business, and I'm a stupid dick on top of that? Charming.

Maybe it's just possible there are other reasons you haven't considered. For example, our Odin Kickstarter had enough backers to justify one mould; we wore that out during fulfillment. We also learned a lot about multi-part models, and came up with new ways to improve production. To continue production viably we'd need to invest in more moulds and some major resculpting. Basically, it's no longer possible to offer that product as it was.

Our take our robots KS; we ran it to give all those people who'd asked about them a chance to get some. But it's an older sculpt, and there's a lot on it I would change now, starting with the way it fits together. I may well make a new version at some point, but I'm not comfortable continuing to offer a product that I think needs improving.

If that makes me a stupid dick, then so be it...

As for your assumption that the majority of the market agree with you, all I can say is this. Before Kickstarter, we sold a grand total of £365 worth of miniatures. Since we started using Kickstarter, we've sold over a hundred grand's worth. I'll stick with the minority market, thanks. 

I would say that the KS-honeymoon has passed, as there are now many people vying for funds, with many backers being more cautious due to poor previous experiences.

I'd say this is true, to an extent - certainly there's way more competition on there now, and people are just about flooded with new skirmish games for example. But there's always new people joining; we had over 40 backers in our last project who had joined Kickstarter just to support us. They have all now backed other projects as a result, so it's still a growth market.

I think Kickstarter is much like any form of online shopping; you just have to be very careful who you give your money to.

[Dags]

I'm not a fan - although I can completely understand why any company would go down the KS route.

There is certainly nowt wrong with a properly organised and run KS (like Lovejoy's) but they're not for me.

I could go on another one of my rants about not giving Amazon money but primarily if something gets my interest I want it now not a couple of months (or more) down the line when the interest has waned.

[Tactalvanic]

I think Kickstarter is much like any form of online shopping; you just have to be very careful who you give your money to.

Yes, that. But I would go further in saying any kind of shopping.

I also agree with 3 fingers, better a small KS with a quick turnaround and reliable delivery on their promises (agree with him on Lancer - great people, nice product and excellent turnaround on their KS's to).

I am tired, of larger, slow to deliver KS's although I can still be tempted. I am certainly less likely to bother with them now that I am 'hardened' to KS overall.

So overall tired of so much KS, yes, like too much of most things, but as long as I don't look to much, thats ok  

and if the likes of Oath Sworn, RPE, Lancer etc can feed my mountain with affordable KS output, that helps them and they gives me  

oooh shiny   stuff,

then I can put up with another way to spend some of my hard earned.

[Lovejoy]

...if something gets my interest I want it now not a couple of months (or more) down the line when the interest has waned.

Can't argue with that at all - I think it's the reason so many games that get launched as KSs go nowhere... they take so long to appear that people just lose interest. So by the time the games hit retail, not only have the majority of those interested already bought through KS, but a lot of those disillusioned backers sell their stuff cheap on ebay, so potential new players don't have to buy retail anyway.

I know there are exceptions, and things like Zombicide do well at retail, but a lot of games are struggling...

It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out over the next few years!