Kickstarter this... Kickstarter that... *sigh*

[Cubs]

I like them and haven't had a bad experience yet (or perhaps because I haven't had a bad experience yet).

I've backed two in the past (Redbox Games Njorns and Blood Rage) and am currently backing two more (Redbox Games Njorns again and Iain Colwell's skulls & bones basing sheets). I like being part of getting something off the ground.

To my mind the advantage is we're seeing smaller sellers able to get projects off the ground and into production, rather than just relying on the same old big companies churning out the same old stuff and aiming for the mass sales market.

Yeah, KS has now evolved into something other than what it initially was (perhaps not what it was meant to be) and the bigger companies now also use it as a low risk alternative to traditional ways of developing lines, but that hasn't shut the smaller companies out. They may be a little lost in the traffic, as it were, but they're still there and still able to get their ideas into production. Even with a failed KS, the company gets a lot of feedback and is able to learn lessons to enable them to improve things for the next time. The only thing a backer usually loses in these cases is interest.

It's not for everyone, but then everyone has their preference about what they buy as well as how they buy. It's just another option.

[eilif]

Is it just me or is anybody else sick to the back teeth of endless Kickstarters? What ever happened to the good old days when companies simply released stuff, we bought it, everyone was happy.

Why does EVERYTHING these days have to trundle through the cursed Kickstarter route?!  

It's been at least half a year since I pledged for anything but I love kickstarters, and not even only for myself to buy in.  A few of my favorite reasons.

1) It seems like there's alot of things coming via kickstarter that would either not have made it to market or would have come in a much more limited way if not for kickstarter.  A line that formerly might have been a pack or two on a given subject (or not come out at all) can find support and arrive on the market as a fully fleshed out faction/game/genre/etc.

2) It gives an active forum in which backers can have a say (if the developer wants to) in creating a more appealing product. Lots of opportunities for the creator to engage with an active fanbase at various stages of development in a way that might not have been quite as involved if they didn't have their money already on the line.

3) Very good deals.  You have to be a bit choosy now (Mantic shipping costs for low-end pledges I'm looking at you) but if you look carefully at what's being offered and the company doing the deal there are some fantastic bargains to be had.  

4) Lastly and this may be a bit weird but I kind of like pledging (what is often a rather low amount) watching the rewards pile up and then putting it out of my mind.  Then there's a mini christmas-surprise-ish event when figures I had only half remembered purchasing show up on my door-step.

Additionally, there are all previously mentioned publicity, funding and market research a reasons for a creator to go the kickstarter route.  

As for the naysayers, I say just ignore KS.  It's not actually a "trundle".  The truth is that the product isn't going to take any longer to get to market, its just that because of the KS you are hearing about it much earlier in the creative process.   KS has opened a door that will not be shut anytime soon.  It just offers too many advantages to buyers and creators.

As for the "good old days" I would only remind folks that in the "good old days" There were far fewer figures available in fewer genres and mostly of lesser quality.  These are very "good days" for miniature gamers.

[Andrew Rae]

As for your assumption that the majority of the market agree with you, all I can say is this. Before Kickstarter, we sold a grand total of £365 worth of miniatures. Since we started using Kickstarter, we've sold over a hundred grand's worth. I'll stick with the minority market, thanks. 

Given the period of time and the undoubtedly excellent marketing platform you've utilised, that's not actually that outlandish. Just imagine what you could have sold if you'd been doing both Kickstarters and normal retail sales.

That said, I am a big fan of the way Michael goes about his Kickstarters and as he's pointed out there can be many reasons why a product might not be available for sale after a KS has been fulfilled. But we both know moulds aren't that expensive.

[Lovejoy]

Given the period of time and the undoubtedly excellent marketing platform you've utilised, that's not actually that outlandish. Just imagine what you could have sold if you'd been doing both Kickstarters and normal retail sales.

The webstore's all ready to go back up, pics done, stock system sorted and everything... I'm just holding on until our new tax year.  And yes, every day I don't have it online is a day I imagine you frowning at me and shaking your head in disgust; I'll be better this year honestly!

But we both know moulds aren't that expensive.

They are when I've rather foolishly made the model in 10 pieces...

[Andrew Rae]

The webstore's all ready to go back up, pics done, stock system sorted and everything... I'm just holding on until our new tax year.  And yes, every day I don't have it online is a day I imagine you frowning at me and shaking your head in disgust; I'll be better this year honestly!

  Good to hear. My face will be a beaming smile when that happens.

They are when I've rather foolishly made the model in 10 pieces...

Ahhhh... I see.

[eilif]

Gotta say I really enjoy seeing the comments from creator/producers.  

The not-available-after KS thing doesn't really bother me.  Having a product whose production costs/difficulies, low interest level or some other factor makes it best as a "limited run" is not a new thing in retail or a "dick move".  It just is.

There are a few KS's that I decided to wait for retail either because it would be cheaper then or because I didn't have full faith in the creator.  If the product doesn't go retail then it's my fault for not backing, though so far I've been vindicated with either lower prices at retail or a KS that doesn't deliver or delivers less quality than expected.

[Drachenklinge]

I am not much into kickstarters, though all around me buddies are really into it.
However, I am more of a look/watch-then-buy type of person. I do not like to see a modell, knowing nothing about it, worst of all, see an however-cool-they-might-be sketch or even green.

I am definitely sure, that there are some dwarfs or other minis out there I would really like to have, but never will, because I wasn't there when they were sold. But heck. I cannot buy everything (thankgodforthat). So kickstarter or the like is not for me. I ideally like to see things up close, then hit and buy. So even online-ordering somewhat hurts me abit, when I do not know the range up close already.

Having said that, it is somewhat obviously, that this concept has it advantages for smaller miniature-forges by decreasing risks. Also it IS working. Maybe only for the moment, maybe for longer. It is just not for me.

And besides ... I am playing dwarfs ... I do not need to rush ... I am patient.  

[Daniel36]

I don't really mind Kickstarters per sé, but my personal enormous gripe is the Kickstarter Exclusive miniature.

Honestly, some Kickstarters felt like they were 95% Kickstarter Exclusive, and it just feels like a kick in the nuts for people who can't at that point afford to join in. You're basically telling prospective fans they can suck it if they don't shell out immediately.

I know why they do it, obviously. It is a HUGE incentive, especially in the miniature market, where a huge portion of collectors are OCD completionists (myself included), but it feels extremely unfair. I honestly can't just shell out 200 bucks on the fly. I have to collect things over time. So that leaves me screwed out of exclusives every time.

So that's what annoys me. I get it, I don't get overly mad about it (it's just stuff), but that is what does annoy me.

But I guess that's just me.

[Elbows]

Well, I don't imagine that was the goal, more of a symptom.  Unfortunately the expectation of free, limited, etc. has pushed the KS to the point of bursting for some companies.  They need the backers, and that's the fastest way to get them.

Sadly I just shelled out a bunch of a money for a great game which I never saw on KS.  The KS exclusives were so good, I ended up paying about double what a backer would have.  I feel your pain, but it is what it is.  I'd also imagine that a year or two down the road you'll find a lot of exclusives for cheap on ebay.

[Cubs]

Plus of course the money doesn't come out straight away, so you've usually got time to put it aside in chunks.

[FionaWhite]

I don't really mind Kickstarters per sé, but my personal enormous gripe is the Kickstarter Exclusive miniature.

Honestly, some Kickstarters felt like they were 95% Kickstarter Exclusive, and it just feels like a kick in the nuts for people who can't at that point afford to join in. You're basically telling prospective fans they can suck it if they don't shell out immediately.

I know why they do it, obviously. It is a HUGE incentive, especially in the miniature market, where a huge portion of collectors are OCD completionists (myself included), but it feels extremely unfair. I honestly can't just shell out 200 bucks on the fly. I have to collect things over time. So that leaves me screwed out of exclusives every time.

So that's what annoys me. I get it, I don't get overly mad about it (it's just stuff), but that is what does annoy me.

But I guess that's just me.

Nah, I'm right there with you, you just put it a lot more nicely than I ever could've. 

[LeadAsbestos]

I backed the first Red Box disaster and watched poor Tre nearly have a breakdown over all the BS, backed and backed out of Blood Rage when I counted how many Vikings I already had, backed and watched NY Bop! not make it, and I'm now waiting for my Outrider KS to arrive, and I'll probably sell it off as my interests have changed.

Despite all that, I'm still open to a good KS. NY Bop! should be trying again in April, and I'm going to go all in. Wish I had gotten in the FFoL KS when I had the chance.

I think KS is a great format to get some interesting things out there. Full steam ahead.

[Cubs]

Fortunately I wasn't in on the first Redbox one that went tits up! I did hear dark rumours though, but fortunately it appears to have a been a 'learning experience'.

The Blood Rage one in all fairness I got overwhelmed by when it finally arrived - there was just waaay too much stuff for me. I kept the Mountain Giant, kept back a couple of nice models as presents for my brother and then sold all the rest in batch on eBay. Even taking into account the models I kept, eBay and Paypal fees and postage costs, I still made a small profit on my original investment, so I can't complain!

[Connectamabob]

So I'm to be resented for the way I do business...

If you employ a business model that's resented, then yes, it logically follows that you'd be resented for doing so. But this is an academic point on my part. I don't resent KS myself, I'm just pointing out that a "hate the game, not the player" defense is special pleading.

Maybe it's just possible there are other reasons you haven't considered. For example, our Odin Kickstarter had enough backers to justify one mould; we wore that out during fulfillment. We also learned a lot about multi-part models, and came up with new ways to improve production. To continue production viably we'd need to invest in more moulds and some major resculpting. Basically, it's no longer possible to offer that product as it was.

Our take our robots KS; we ran it to give all those people who'd asked about them a chance to get some. But it's an older sculpt, and there's a lot on it I would change now, starting with the way it fits together. I may well make a new version at some point, but I'm not comfortable continuing to offer a product that I think needs improving.

The former is R&D funding: your backers got a prototype, not a "limited edition". The latter is a "last hurrah" or clearance sale. What I'm calling a dick move is the deliberate artificial scarcity stuff, for the reasons Daniel36 states above.

As for your assumption that the majority of the market agree with you, all I can say is this. Before Kickstarter, we sold a grand total of £365 worth of miniatures. Since we started using Kickstarter, we've sold over a hundred grand's worth. I'll stick with the minority market, thanks.  

Again: tiny niche stuff where you're part of the target community.

Kickstarter is great for, as the name suggests, kickstarting a venture. Using the KS to fund the project, and (relatively) ensure a good "opening weekend": all good. Again: the ONLY thing I'm being critical of here is stuff that's planned as KS exclusive, with no interest in long tail sales after/outside that. Not stuff that uses KS at all. Not stuff that uses KS to ensure profitability. Just the "KS only" marketing shenanigans.

Once a product has gone through the R&D, tooling, etc and made it's first net profit on kickstarter, you can keep it in backburner production for those who didn't want the KS risk, or those who discovered your product late. You can even fold the cost for that into the original KS targets. You can do a rolling release where you re-KS stuff whenever stock or the mold runs out. There's lots of options if you want to get both sides of the market.

All these things are good. The only thing I think is stupid/dickish are limited editions, regardless of what sales platform they use. In the traditional market, they had a degree of one-sided justification because sales for some types of items are hard to predict, so a limited edition is an easy (but still dickish) way of dealing with that. KS opens up ones options though, so there's no non-dickish/stupid reason to do that.

I'm not down on KS or crowdfunding. I agree with those who say it's a fantastic new tool that is going to continue to evolve and become a major fixture in the business landscape going forward. But the fact that it solves some old problems means the old solutions to those problems are now less justifiable. And as noted by Dags, when you actually need something in an immediate time frame, a crowdfunded project isn't desirable. If you need a tool for a project, you don't go to KS, you go to Amazon or Home Depot or whatever. And if that tool needs replacing two years down the line, you want the security of knowing you can do so as easily as you bought the first one. Probably 99% of the stuff in your house is stuff like this.

[Elbows]

I gotta say I disagree wholesale with ya Connect.  You're entitled to your opinion.

People use Kickstarter to get money for absurd stuff all the time...if they're successful, good on them (and I'm speaking outside of the gaming community).  If people support them, good, that's their decision.

I'm sorry you're insulted by limited edition runs of models, but remember your opinion is just that - not fact.