Modern Israeli Tanks in 28mm?

[Wyrmalla]

Query, its been a long term goal of mine to have some modern Israeli miniatures. It seems that I may have the means to source infantry for them, but tanks are a sticking point. I've managed to find a few alternatives myself, though so far nothing is ideal.

The Merkava seemingly only has one model out there at the scale, an Kitech Mk1 variant (without all the modular armour the modern is fitted with). I have their T-72 model. Its terrible.

Failing that then, seeing as I doubt anyone makes any of their upgrade kits, what about 1/50th scale Centurions, preferably plastic kits to work as Sho't? Nowadays they only really use Merkavas, but I could make a stretch for older kit I guess seeing as I'd be playing skirmish games.

I'm considering just buying a T-55 kit and turning it into a Tiran, though again those are about 20 years out of date. That and seeing as the modernization program of these was abandoned for the Merkava, I'd have to make assumptions about how things might have gone Re; Egyptian Mirage.

Finally, if everything else fails, how about M113 APCs? Again, modification required. Specifically, and in all these cases (re: Kitech's sucky Merkava), I can find these, but detail wise they aren't amazing. I have the hull of a T-64 there (sans a lot of parts), so could make a Namer, though whilst I'm fine adding the extra armour of some variants, building an entire hull is more of a summer project.

Ideas ...um, otherwise I'll have to live with the Kitech mini (or find myself with yet another T-xx model on my desk)? 

[CptJake]

Armorcast has a 113 as a starting point:  http://www.armorcast.com/historical/1-48th-scale/1-48-scale-us-m113-apc

So does Baker Company:  http://bakercompany.co.uk/us-army/29-m113-armoured-carrier.html

[carlos marighela]

I suppose it depends on how much work you fancy. Tamiya make a 1/48 M60 as does Academy and IIRC another Japanese plastic kit. There's also a basic M48 Snaptite kit from Revell that rewards a bit of work. None of these would be entirely accurate as is but with a fair bit of work with plastic card, they'd form the basis for making a Magach. The beauty is that with the later versions like the Magach 7 the changes to hull and the side skirt armour would basically hide any deficiencies in the kits.

Apart from that the Academy/Kitech kit is the only one I know of in 1/48 or anything close enough for use with 28mm troops and that would take a lot of work to get it to look anything like a Merkava 4.

If 1/56 works for you then both Force of Arms and Sloppy Jalopy make Zeldas.

[carlos marighela]

By the way where did you find an appropriately scaled T-64? I never knew such a beast existed and I would love some.

[Mike Bravo Minis]

Is the Academy kit particularly terrible?

Back in the summer I had exploratory chats with one of the 1/56 vehicle manufacturers about a Merkava and they were keen in principle. Now our infantry are finally nearing completion I'll pick that baton up again and see if I can nudge things along. Otherwise if I'm ever brave enough to tackle vehicles then it's joint top of my list.

I didn't know about the FOA Zelda so that's useful to know.

From what they tell me, Sloppy Jalopy has a sho't master that is on its list to bring into production but it's a little way down the list and without suitable infantry readily available I don't suppose they are in a rush (and many people will also point out that it has been on the blocks for a number of years already).  I need to follow up with them this week on another project so will give them a prod.

[carlos marighela]

Can you prod them about their T-62 while you are at it? If they put it into production, they'll get an order from me and I'll buy some BMPs into the bargain.

[carlos marighela]

Is the Academy kit particularly terrible?

There are a couple of 1/48 T-72s out there. One by Kitech the other by Academy. The Kitech/ Zhengdefu one isn't actually that bad for a gaming model, it's reasonably well detailed but an easy build. The Academy one is..... well, it's shite.

I binned mine but this chap has a blog with handy comparison shots.

http://saskminigamer.blogspot.com.au/2013_11_01_archive.html

The biggest problem (see what I did there?) is that both of them are massively over scale. Maybe 1/40, 1/43? Not even 1/48 figures are in scale, much less standard 28mm.


Here's another blog which shows the Kitech one against a  1/50 diecast and a 1/56  resin T-55.

http://wpggamegeeks.blogspot.com.au/search/label/T-72

  As in all things scale related your mileage may vary but it's hard to justify a T-72 that towers over its Western counterparts.

Hope that helps

[Wyrmalla]

1/56th scale's iffy, as I've found with my Russians. As most of my existing vehicles are 1/48 - 1/50th, any 1/56th stuff looks really titchy by comparison. I'd rather make a Zelda myself from a larger kit than use a 1/56th one (not to knock the Sloppy Jalopy kits) to avoid scale creep.

As for T-64s, I was given one by a friend who found one at a show. It incomplete, but looks like the remains of a custom kit which I've seen online. There was a French manufacturer who made all sorts of Soviet stuff, but having checked their website (sorry for lack of links, at work so I don't have any to hand) they've gone bust and are only selling the master molds.

The Academy/ Kitech kits are more like toys that scale replicas. Having said that I have T-72s from both companies and the Kitech models are better. They don't hold a candle to any of the Empress/ HLBS stuff though. The newer Merkavas cover up most of the hull with modular armour, which would cover up the crap detailing, though the issue with that is I'd pretty much have to rebuild most of the model. At least those tanks are meant to be big, so I guess that those kits are more like 1/43rd scale wouldn't matter so much.

Oh that, and as has been said, the Academy/ Kitech scales are all over the place. The Academy T-72 is too long and tall. The Kitech one is squatter, but still way too big for what it claims to be. Stick a resin T-72 next to them and they quite obviously look like toys. ...Which is to say I just bought three of the things for £9 yesterday.

[Wyrmalla]

Right now I'm considering then:

A possible fictional Tiran upgrade, as the Israelis were going to do before they scrapped the idea and used the Merkava.

A Zelda, made from the Eureka (though the price is iffy), or Empress cast.

A Nakpadon, if I can find a Centurior which I can tear off the upper hull off. I guess just removing the turret would be enough, but having one in the right scale may be an issue (diecasts?).

The Academy Merkava, which'd be a project and a half...

For gaming purposes a Tank and an APC would do. The tank's a biggee though as at some point it'd be needed (I can't have a dozen Eastern European derived armoured vehicles, but only rocks to throw at them by the other side).

I guess I could maybe push the period back to the turn of the century to justify the older vehicles. I'd rather use Mike Bravo's Tavor armed IDF, but I could substitute in some M16/ Galil armed guys. ...Of course the irks about period are purely from myself, as I doubt anyone who I actually play against would notice. On which note I may as well see if Company B are still doing their Super Shermans.

[Mike Bravo Minis]

Once we've got the ctars done they'll be going back to the sculptor to be converted to M16s (or is it M4 for idf? Don't have my notes to hand)

Eventually there will be galils but will need to build up the war chest again first.

[Wyrmalla]

To drag up this thread, bit of a query. I remember reading that the IDF captured a ton of T-55s and T-64s over the years (maybe even some later stuff). Those were turned into Tirans and eventually Achzarit. However, I can't find any sources stating the T-64 were used for Achzarit, oddly they all state just T-55s and list of T-55 measurements.

I'm making an Achzarit right now based on the longer T-64 measurements (I'm using a generic hull Zhengdefu use for all their T-series kits). Looking at it, its indeed longer than the pictures of Achzarit I've seen.

...What's doing my head in right now is whether I'm making a dumb mistake or not.

And yes, I'm aware none of the guys who I'll be playing against even know what an Achzarit is.

[Arlequín]

You might have better luck basing your search on the T-62... the T-64 is a different vehicle which was 'Soviet only' back then.

When you modify a vehicle on a mass basis, basing the new design on a single model is far less of a headache than basing it on two. It may well be that the decision was to use the more numerous and more outmoded T54/55 as the basis for the Achzarit.     

[Wyrmalla]

Heh, well the only reason which I pose the question is that I already started making one based on the Zhengdefu T-72.

Checking for references to the T-62 in Israeli use, it looks like they're still in use by reservists as Tirans, not HAPCs. ...Which in other words means they're in active use (given that the internet says the Magach was pulled from service, but you still see those things driving about in the back of news shots).

Oh well, bit of a doozy with the choice of chassis, but it'll have to work. The scale's right for 1/50th at least, but the length's making it look a bit like an MT-LBu at the moment. I've started, so I guess I aught to finish ...unless I want to spend £20 on a T-55 off of Ebay (the cheaper ones have ERA stuck all the hulls, which'd be a nuisance to remove).

Hmn, now I want a bloody Tiran too. 

[Arlequín]

From what I've seen of it, you would be hard pushed to tell what vehicle it was originally, unless you happen to be an expert on Soviet tank road wheels.

  

[Wyrmalla]

Talking about road wheels, I may or may not have corrected someone last night when they called a T-80U a T-80...