Modern Israeli Tanks in 28mm?

[Arlequín]

What would make your life easier would be if the Israelis capacity for levity (risque photos et al), was extended to their vehicles. Chrome spinners on the road wheels would disguise a multitude of faults.

Perhaps they could take a leaf out of the Japanese book and go all out on personalised art work too.

[Wyrmalla]

Damn, my Google-fu is failing me. I did some shots of Israeli Centurions with big slogans painted on the side of them Russian style. They did similar stuff with promotional shots of Merkavas, but I guess most of the admin guys have a stick up their arse about soldiers messing up the paintwork.

Nah, just cover the things in stowage and that deals with the issue.

Hmn, though personally with my own vehicles I prefer my stuff with an unusual camo than slogans (unless its militia stuff, then I tat those up to no end).

[Arlequín]

I've been dying to use this photo for ages and I think you've said 'Merkava' three times, so...



That's scale creep! 

[Wyrmalla]

God, they're still keeping those Hotchkiss? Damn, quick, find one in 28mm! Crap, the first hit's 1/56th scale!



A fun bit of Israeli history. At the country's found the IDF had two armoured brigades. One was made up  of 20 Hotchkiss, the one one was... um, Shermans or whatever. Why were they split that way? Because half the guys didn't speak the same language as the other half. Oh the unlikely history of the IDF.

Heh, I'll eventually start a thread once I have anything finished. The chances of a Merkava actually turning up there at this rate are slim though. No, I shall field the most rag tag Israeli military force seen in 28mm...

Still, not as bad as my Eastern European stuff. Is that a UAZ driving alongside a T-80? 

[Queeg]

To drag up this thread, bit of a query. I remember reading that the IDF captured a ton of T-55s and T-64s over the years (maybe even some later stuff). Those were turned into Tirans and eventually Achzarit. However, I can't find any sources stating the T-64 were used for Achzarit, oddly they all state just T-55s and list of T-55 measurements.

Hey matey,

Yeah just a quick note, the T64 was only of a handful of Soviet AFVs never exported. It was far too complex for most of the Russian conscripts to master the maintenance and tech requirements let alone even lesser trained troops. It was passed onto and used by successor states however after it was finally withdrawn from Russian frontline issue in the late '90s.

T62s were exported in time for the '73 war though in relatively small numbers compared with the T55 which saw service from the 6-Day war onwards and was thus captured/recovered in very big numbers.

So your choices for heavy IDF APCs are T54/55 Achzarit, Centurion Nagmachon/Nakpadon/Puma and the Merkava based Namer.

Given the lack of chassis around and by the time you add the armoured superstructure any of the Kitech/Academy series hulls would probably do the trick, especially if shortened for an Achzarit.

cheers
Brent

[Wyrmalla]

Hah, somehow I never thought about just cutting down the T-72 hull a bit.

Issue with that is that the Zhengdefu kit is a bit cheap. The tracks are a flimsy rubber which I'm not sure would hold up too well with being split (it'd work, but I'd tear my hair out. That, and they're already glued on, so may tear). There's also a stoting battery caddy in the middle of the hull as well to deal with.

Hmn, so ideally I'd cut the thing down, but I'm not sure if its more hassle than its worth.

Re; Later T-series tanks. Ah, I had thought the 64 was what was in use around that time. Yes, the 62 has the 55's shorter chassis right? Hmn, though were later tanks in use by the Arabs at all during any of the wars, and if so the presumably at least some were captured. However if they were I suspect the Israelis just stuck them in their museums.

Also, as far as armaments go, the Israelis use American made guns for pintle mounts right? They started out with .30 cals, then the 50s. Have at any point they used French stuff, or Negevs? I have .50 cals sure, but IIRC the Airfix kits have Minimis on them which would double as Negevs. IIRC the newer Achzarit have remote mounts, but this thread's turning into "what crap do the Israeli's have in reserve/ the IDF <2000".

[Arlequín]

It's your thread, lead it where you want it to go. 

As far as I know, other than M16/M4 and their own products, the Israelis have largely used FN-licensed products for much of their history (which includes the FN FAL, FN MAG, the M1919 in 7.62mm and the .50 Browning), other than in 1948, when they were grateful of anything. I don't think (but do not know for sure) that they ever bought French small arms.

[Wyrmalla]

Heh, just trying to stay away from the mod warnings about talking about current conflicts.

I was just speaking to a friend at the office there who happened to have seen some IDF armour in person. All the ones I've seen have US guns on them, but he thinks he seen some with FN Minimi on them. Presumably he meant the Negev, but he toted about one of those things about in Iraq, so I can understand the confusion (...he did complain about the Negev's ammo feeds a fair bit there. ...Though he preferred to use his LMG like Rambo, firing from the hip and with just loose belts. The people you meet working IT).

Bah, I meant Belgium when I said French with the Minimi.

I think I might just stick with whatever .50 Cals I can find and any Airfix FN Minimis that're handy. I don't think I'm good enough to make remote controlled mounts, so I guess I'll stick with two pintle pones on the Achzarit.

[Arlequín]

Current equipment is innocuous enough, photos or discussion of current wars and operations is not, so tank and vehicle porn that stays within those limits is okay... we moderators are not that bad you know, we don't even need sensitivity training or anything.

 

[Queeg]

Re; Later T-series tanks. Ah, I had thought the 64 was what was in use around that time. Yes, the 62 has the 55's shorter chassis right? Hmn, though were later tanks in use by the Arabs at all during any of the wars, and if so the presumably at least some were captured. However if they were I suspect the Israelis just stuck them in their museums.

Hey matey,

The T62 is actually quite a bit longer than the 55, 9m vrs 6m long (rounded down a bit, I haven't go the exact lengths in front of me). It used a bigger gun, so needed a bigger turret ring which need a bigger hull and so on.

The T72 was in use with the Syrians in the '82 Lebanon war where it fought against M60s and possibly Merkavas. And of course it was exported to Iraq, along with buckets of T55s and T62s. 

The reason the IDF didn't bother using the T62 hull is really they never really got enough of them and also didn't need them. When they began first using the M60 and then introduced the Merkava it freed up the Centurion hull which is largely used for the engineering type heavy APCs. So between the screeds of T55 hulls, the Centurion and now the later Merkava (Namer) they really didn't have to bother faffing about with the T62.

Arlequins got it spot on with the small arms. In the 56 war you might find 30cals but they moved to 7.62 FN MAGs (GPMGs, M60s and later M240s) pretty quickly with the 50cal being the heavy weapon (still in use). The GPMGs are mostly seen used on pintle mounts with the 50cals on the fixed barrel suppression/spotting mount and in many of the newer RWS systems.

cheers
Brent

[Wyrmalla]

Well I think the thing with the Achzarit was that they were looking for something to do with their old T-55s. The problem though, which yes brings us to the T-62s, is that Achzarits cost way too much to build. Its quicker to build a Namer, or hell a whole APC from scratch than it is to tear about a T-55, at least according to the info I've found.

Hmn, I guess I'll veer from faffing about with turning the T-72 into a T-62 and just leave it as it is. It does look too long, but well, its a one off, or we're working in the world of fiction (...my OPFOR will be Russians and Brits).

I could probably rehabilate a Academy Merkava into a Namer, but I'm not sure there'd be a point right now in having more than one APC. The Achzarit is a HAPC, which would suit skirmish games, and I’ll maybe make a Zelda or Nakpadon (if I can finf a Centurion), but those would be vanity projects. I do have a ton of Russian stuff though, so having the extra Israelis would be good for larger games eventually.

[Wyrmalla]

Um, hmn, well, seeing as I'm way behind on making actual models than I should be for ...reason (notably tearing the Achzarit in half. Twice.). Time to hijack my own thread with pictures.

This is where the Achzarit is at right now. Don't be put off by the crudeness. It'll be crap when its down obviously, but I wound up deciding to cover the whole hull in milliput because the lovely smooth plasticard was full of so many holes after I took a knife to it. Twice.



The third delay with this was me hunting for sandpaper today to clean all the milliput off. That stuff is oddly difficult to source.

But yes, I'll tidy that up so the plates are much smoother then start with all the hatches and grates. The base model's a Zhengdefu T-72 which I shortened a bit to look like an upgraded T-55.

The light levels are crap/ quality's crap - i.e. the reason why I haven't posted anything here in ages.

Plus the M41 (?) and a Humvee which I may use with these Israelis too. The Achzarit and would be Magach are 1/50th scale. The Humvee's 1/43rd unfortunately.



I'll wind up covering most of the M41 up to make a Magach, so that its not an M60 probably won't make much of a difference. The Humvee meanwhile is based off of an Ambulance variant from the Gulf War. None of that variant have been documented in IDF use. If the Israelis did get a hold of any they would have replaced the cab and up armoured it. By hey, I had the thing's been sitting there unused since I built it. It only has a base coast on it, but seeing as it'll take a month for me to be bothered to paint it, there it is.

Yes, I do have a dirty habit of scratch building obscure Humvee variants out of those 1/43rd kits. I still prefer the Ukrainian one with the Russian gun.

For scale that's a 28mm modern Ukrainian soldier. I have an IDF reservist there, but he still has just a base coat.

So, super early days, but there's something before I sit here for a couple of hours sanding that damn Achzarit down.

[Arlequín]

Can't tell completely from this angle, but I think the tank is meant to be a M47 Patton, or a M46 Patton, or some curious offspring of both if they were able to have children... which in this case would be left in a box at the gates of the orphanage.

    

[carlos marighela]

Not an M-41 it's either the meant to be the M-47 ( in which case the hull is wrongly shaped) or more likely a Japanese Type 61, in which case it still has accuracy problems.

What it most definitely isn't is an M-41.

[Wyrmalla]

Huh, looking at the Type 61 oddly enough the turret is pretty close. Obviously its a toy, so isn't really accurate, but it looks more like one of those than a Patton.

Meh, its going to be pretty much completely rebuilt, bar what you can see of the road wheels.