Bugbears!

[Dr. Zombie]

What really bugs me is the amount of skulls and severed heads being carried around. Once in a while a severed head might be acceptable for an action pose. But there are really a lot of minis carrying around severed heads and skulls.

[throwsFireball]

What really bugs me is the amount of skulls and severed heads being carried around. Once in a while a severed head might be acceptable for an action pose. But there are really a lot of minis carrying around severed heads and skulls.

I dislike action poses in general.

Especially the Infinity "strategic rock" stuff. God, it irritates me. What if I don't want a rock in the basing of my super advanced super soldier spies who are more likely to be in a city or a spaceship than a rocky plain?

[Diablo Jon]

Good points! On nostalgia, though, take a look at this: a line-up of Citadel orcs from the early 80s to the present. Where do you (any of you!) think the best sculpts lie? For me, it's definitely the second and third from the left. The worst - by far - is clearly the Heroquest one with the flail, but the next worst is probably the most recent, on the far right. And the trend towards cartooniness and camp is pretty clear. There's certainly a cartoony aspect to the Kev Adams one with the mail hood and the flail, but the scrawny, wiry frame avoids the He-Man and Skeletor excesses of the later ones. It's worth noting, too, that these are all rank-and-file models: just look at the awful bombast that creeps into the orcish ranks!

And on refinement: my terrible second photo probably doesn't show it well, but the "finish"on the 80s orc is actually far superior to the blocky, cartoony edges of the modern one. The Perry orc's ears, for example, are simply much better sculpted and more naturally rendered. Ditto for the posture: only one of these figures could be mistaken for Donald Duck. Finally, the details on the old model outstrip the new one by leagues: the rope holding on the armour, the buckles, the armour itself, the beard, the helmet and the facial expression. Can anyone seriously think the contemporary one is a better sculpture? Again, these are rank-and-file unit fillers of their respective eras. I just don't see that you need nostalgic goggles to appreciate the superiority of the old one.

I think this is were things fall down I look at those two sculpts in the bottom picture and to my eye the modern GW miniature is a much (much)  better sculpt. I played Warhammer since second edition are there are some miniatures I still love from that pre-slotta era but the orcs weren't one of them. A few years back I built a Slann army for 3rd edition WFB (cost me a fortune and much time on ebay) and decided to in go with some Lizard man auxiliaries using the pre-slotta Lizard men frankly they were horrible limps of crap no way comparable to modern GW Lizardman.

[Hobgoblin]

Hobgoblin, you might've missed on what I was saying. The only pro in favour of the plastic orcs, in my view, is that there are fewer 'wibbles' in their sculpting. But by that token, while I agree the earlier orcs in that lineup look better (how do I say it without putting noses out of joint) they might still be tightened up a little. I could go into detail, but they are just little details, and I'd end up looking petty. Well, pettier than I already look.

No, I agreed with your point entirely. I just wanted to hammer down the nostalgia thing (with an oversized warhammer!).

I'm sure those early orcs could have been tightened up. The bearded orc's right arm might, I've often thought, be a tad short - although if one reaches back to swing one's sickle in that way, the arm does "compress". But - if one things of orcs as "generic evil soldiers" rather than specifically as described by JRRT - I'm hard pressed to think of a superior range. Those C15 Armoured Orcs are far more interesting than the same sculptors' LotR orcs (and are better posed, overall, I think). For ranges that rival them in quality, I think you have to go back to Jez Goodwin's Asgard range or Tom Meier's giant goblins (which are great, but are fewer in number and less varied in appearance).

Another point I'd make about them is that those moulds were obviously done to death. I've got various duplicates from the range, and some have a much rougher finish than others. The older ones are really good, crisp clear castings; the end-of-mould-life ones less so. Also, the one in the picture has had a long life of being bashed around in crates laden with miniatures. And he's had the detail on his shield filed off or filled in by my juvenile self ...

[Hobgoblin]

I think this is were things fall down I look at those two sculpts in the bottom picture and to my eye the modern GW miniature is a much (much)  better sculpt. I played Warhammer since second edition are there are some miniatures I still love from that pre-slotta era but the orcs weren't one of them.

I'm genuinely staggered!  But where exactly do you see this better sculpting? The pose (surely not!)? The detail? The metal one has ears that actually look like ears (albeit pointed ones). The plastic one has blocks for ears. The metal one has ugly, mismatched tusks, but tusks that a real creature could conceivably sport. And the armour! The C15 orc's plate armour resembles real plate armour. The plastic orc's armour is so bulky that it would have to be made of fibreglass or something. It looks better suited to some warped version of American football than the battlefield.

I mean, when I look at the two of them side by side, the old metal one has a convincing dynamism and is far more naturalistic. It creates a much stronger illusion of being an actual little person - it would have far more application in a diorama, for example. And imagine each of those scaled up in marble and occupying a niche in some grand public building. Both would draw protests, I'm sure, but the older one is at least in some small way an offshoot of the Western sculptural tradition. The plastic orc seems to trace his lineage no further back than Mattel or Hasbro.

A few years back I built a Slann army for 3rd edition WFB (cost me a fortune and much time on ebay) and decided to in go with some Lizard man auxiliaries using the pre-slotta Lizard men frankly they were horrible limps of crap no way comparable to modern GW Lizardman.

The slann are actually an interesting example of how GW regressed in its sculpting. The Perry ones were great (Kremlo the Slann in particular is a lovely model). The first Trish Morrison ones are quite nice too - a bit more cartoonish, but not too bad. But the second batch of Morrison ones - the virtually uniformly posed ones that could fit on cold ones or serve as infantry - are really grim.

On the lizardmen, do you mean these guys? I really like them, but they do seem to be marmite. I quite like the current GW ones, but in comparison with the old Morrison ones, they are so boring to paint/clean up. And the poses are very, very limited. But yes, the new ones are better sculpted. I think the contrast with the orcs is telling, though.

[Schrumpfkopf]

Cliches work for me. But then there's that Zeitgeist thing which changes on a rather freightening pace. I guess my approach is that I am pretty cool with everything, but I sure lean more towards the people that feel tired if yet another half-clad maiden is pole dancing with a rediculously oversized weapon.

Re old models: There's quite a few 30 years+ old models from many companies that have more than just a certain charme to them, but for me it's mostly a walk down memory lane. I mean - there's this label 'oldhammer' that I am really trying to avoid since my hobby spans over more than 35 years, so why should not my miniatures collection?

[Evil Doctor]

I believe it was Philip K Dick who said of Science fiction (I paraphrase) that when exploring an alternate reality in one of his novels, he took reality, changed one thing, pushed it to extreme and looked at what he ended up with. For me that’s what makes those old Orcs so good and the new ones so bad. The old ones have tusks and fangs, but ignoring the head they could be men, albeit scrawny, malnourished men – they have natural poses, realistically proportioned weapons, sensible clothes and realistic armour. They are fantasy, but to me they are believable fantasy. In comparison, some of the figures in the modern aesthetic of huge muscles, crazy armour, massive weapons and dripping with skulls and the like just don’t look in the slightest way believable. The sculpt may be technically very good, but to me it doesn’t look like a little soldier, it looks like a toy. I really hate the ‘weapons bigger and wider than the man carrying them’ look, especially axes!

I guess that’s the difference. Some folks like the modern, OTT ‘toy’ aesthetic, others don’t. In my mind’s eye I can imagine bumping into one of those old Armoured Orcs on a battlefield somewhere. That is lost with the modern figures - most look like they couldn’t even walk, let alone fight. I think it’s even worse in SciFi – ‘that marine couldn’t even see past his shoulder pads! Who’d wear armour that looked like that?’

[Vermis]

The first Trish Morrison ones are quite nice too - a bit more cartoonish, but not too bad. But the second batch of Morrison ones - the virtually uniformly posed ones that could fit on cold ones or serve as infantry - are really grim.

You're making it difficult not to pick on one particular sculptor.

On the lizardmen, do you mean these guys? I really like them, but they do seem to be marmite. I quite like the current GW ones, but in comparison with the old Morrison ones, they are so boring to paint/clean up. And the poses are very, very limited. But yes, the new ones are better sculpted. I think the contrast with the orcs is telling, though.

At the risk of seeming deliberately contrary, this is another example of where I think older sculpting could be tidied up a bit. The pose and position of the shoulders, elbows, eye, leg muscles, and legs in relation to torso look awkward to my eye. (But if these are Morrison sculpts I'm not altogether surprised) I've attached something that hopefully shows some subtle tweaks I might make. Alternatively, I prefer these vintage lizardmen.
(While I'm at it: Erebus, too late to make gnoll legs more like these...?)

But again, I agree about the current saurus. I started a lizardman army in 6th ed WFB when these were released, and although I'm a dino nut, when the novelty wore off they were so dull that I didn't stick with them for long. (And big: it was a bother trying to rank them up, even on 25mm bases) If only they looked more like the art in that army book. But  while one was somewhat improved, in my eyes, others just got worse.

[throwsFireball]

<snip>

I think the problem with the "crocodile" old lizardmen is that the shame of the head isn't right. It's too thin and short.

My main complaint, at least.

got worse.

Xenomorph lizard and dog-face smuglizard.

[Hobgoblin]

You're making it difficult not to pick on one particular sculptor.

She did, of course, produce the best beastmen ever. So for that, all is forgiven! With the slann, though, it's clear that there was a degneration from here to here (same sculptor - but different instructions?).

At the risk of seeming deliberately contrary, this is another example of where I think older sculpting could be tidied up a bit. The pose and position of the shoulders, elbows, eye, leg muscles, and legs in relation to torso look awkward to my eye. (But if these are Morrison sculpts I'm not altogether surprised) I've attached something that hopefully shows some subtle tweaks I might make. Alternatively, I prefer these vintage lizardmen.

Fascinating stuff! I don't disagree. I think there is something odd and awkward about the Morrison lizardmen (here's another one, just for the hell of it!). On the other hand, I like them despite - or perhaps because - of it. When my friends and I played 40K as kids, we often - nay, almost always - used these guys in some capacity as "primitives": led by a trouble-making offworlder instigator, perhaps, or acting as "wandering monsters", or attacking offworlders for violating their shrine/sacred jungle/social mores.

So nostalgia is undoubtedly at play in this instance. But there's something more: I think the reason that we loved them as aliens was the fact that they look so odd. They're not really humanoids, nor quite like earthly reptiles, and they hold their weapons strangely (there's one that I can't find a picture of that holds a human sword in a really odd way - but it looks good). And many seem to agree: these things always go for much more than comparable miniatures (by size and era) on ebay.

In comparison, the really ancient Perry lizardman attached below is much more natural in pose (though primitive in sculpting) and is both more humanoid and more convincingly reptilian. But it's not as weird.

The Tom Meier lizardmen (this one's actually a troglodyte) are, to my eyes, the best of both worlds: weird and non-human in their posture, but convincing and genuinely reptilian.

But again, I agree about the current saurus. I started a lizardman army in 6th ed WFB when these were released, and although I'm a dino nut, when the novelty wore off they were so dull that I didn't stick with them for long. (And big: it was a bother trying to rank them up, even on 25mm bases) If only they looked more like the art in that army book. But  while one was somewhat improved, in my eyes, others just got worse.

Yes, very much agreed! There's fun to be had in painting up the Morrison lizardmen. But with the GW plastics, it's chiefly agony.

[Vermis]

I believe it was Philip K Dick who said of Science fiction (I paraphrase) that when exploring an alternate reality in one of his novels, he took reality, changed one thing, pushed it to extreme and looked at what he ended up with. For me that’s what makes those old Orcs so good and the new ones so bad. The old ones have tusks and fangs, but ignoring the head they could be men, albeit scrawny, malnourished men – they have natural poses, realistically proportioned weapons, sensible clothes and realistic armour. They are fantasy, but to me they are believable fantasy. In comparison, some of the figures in the modern aesthetic of huge muscles, crazy armour, massive weapons and dripping with skulls and the like just don’t look in the slightest way believable. The sculpt may be technically very good, but to me it doesn’t look like a little soldier, it looks like a toy. I really hate the ‘weapons bigger and wider than the man carrying them’ look, especially axes!

Yyyup!

Xenomorph lizard and dog-face smuglizard.

 

She did, of course, produce the best beastmen ever. So for that, all is forgiven! With the slann, though, it's clear that there was a degneration from here to here (same sculptor - but different instructions?).

Since I've been itching to say something since this topic was started, here goes. My opinion of Trish's sculpting isn't as generous. It hasn't been far from my mind during my complaints about anatomy and other recent comments. Reason being, while she's not bad at some subjects, she's been GW's chief dragon sculptor for decades and I have trouble finding redeeming features in any of the results. To cut a long, boring and whiny story short, it looks like she cribbed tricks and foibles off Nick Bibby while he was still at GW, failed to understand them, and never changed for twenty years. For instance, the faces on almost all her dragons and reptilian monsters like hydras and salamanders, are the same yelling viperfish with different degrees of stretching. I nearly fell off my seat in surprise when her latest plastic hydra showed an actual different type of head. Similarly, the use of a heliocoprion jaw (mentioned by name in her White Dwarf designer notes) for the kharibdyss shows that she can look up obscure references for her sculpting. Did she never look up 'lizard' or 'snake'...?

And this is why I'm excited by and a bit defensive of the new AoS star drake, because after a few other monsters, it looks like Seb Perbett is now the GW dragon sculptor, and despite a cartoony style he knows his reptiles. And at an even more basic level, it's by somebody else.

There, I said it.

[Hobgoblin]

It's quite the irony, given that the trademark of her - magnificent - beastmen was their huge variety of animal influences!

I suspect GW could achieve wonders if only it would transfer Trish Carden to beastmen (with full license to abandon goats) and Jez Goodwin to orcs (with full license to invoke the spirit of Asgard).

[Diablo Jon]

I'm genuinely staggered!  But where exactly do you see this better sculpting? The pose (surely not!)? The detail? The metal one has ears that actually look like ears (albeit pointed ones). The plastic one has blocks for ears. The metal one has ugly, mismatched tusks, but tusks that a real creature could conceivably sport. And the armour! The C15 orc's plate armour resembles real plate armour. The plastic orc's armour is so bulky that it would have to be made of fibreglass or something. It looks better suited to some warped version of American football than the battlefield.

I mean, when I look at the two of them side by side, the old metal one has a convincing dynamism and is far more naturalistic. It creates a much stronger illusion of being an actual little person - it would have far more application in a diorama, for example. And imagine each of those scaled up in marble and occupying a niche in some grand public building. Both would draw protests, I'm sure, but the older one is at least in some small way an offshoot of the Western sculptural tradition. The plastic orc seems to trace his lineage no further back than Mattel or Hasbro.

The slann are actually an interesting example of how GW regressed in its sculpting. The Perry ones were great (Kremlo the Slann in particular is a lovely model). The first Trish Morrison ones are quite nice too - a bit more cartoonish, but not too bad. But the second batch of Morrison ones - the virtually uniformly posed ones that could fit on cold ones or serve as infantry - are really grim.

On the lizardmen, do you mean these guys? I really like them, but they do seem to be marmite. I quite like the current GW ones, but in comparison with the old Morrison ones, they are so boring to paint/clean up. And the poses are very, very limited. But yes, the new ones are better sculpted. I think the contrast with the orcs is telling, though.

With regards to the orcs the newer one to me is better, cleaner and much easier to paint the older one looks awkward and lumpy  but then I fell in love with Brian Nelson's orks from the Gorka Morka days and love the look of them slab sided muscles, oversized weapons and all.

As for the Lizardmen (nice paint job by the way) those guys just don't hold a candle to more modern sculpts IMO Compare them



to say these

[Hobgoblin]

With regards to the orcs the newer one to me is better, cleaner and much easier to paint the older one looks awkward and lumpy  but then I fell in love with Brian Nelson's orks from the Gorka Morka days and love the look of them slab sided muscles, oversized weapons and all.

That one is in a somewhat awkward pose, I'll grant you. I'd argue it's not nearly as awkward as the other one, of course ... Oddly enough, I found the metal orc much easier to paint; I think the greater range of textures suit my extremely primitive painting technique better.

As for the Lizardmen (nice paint job by the way) those guys just don't hold a candle to more modern sculpts IMO Compare them

No argument from me here! The Otherworld miniatures are some of the best going, I reckon, and those lizardmen are among the best of the best. I really like the Deep Wars (?) ones too. Both are clearly better sculpts than the old C19 ones, though I'd be hard pressed to pick between those and the old Tom Meier ones (just re-reased by Iron Wind, I think).

I do think, though, that the Otherworld stuff is more akin to the C15 Armoured Orcs than to modern plastics.

[Erebus Studios]

I dislike action poses in general.

Especially the Infinity "strategic rock" stuff. God, it irritates me. What if I don't want a rock in the basing of my super advanced super soldier spies who are more likely to be in a city or a spaceship than a rocky plain?

With the main focus of our game as a miniatures board game, this will require our miniatures to be in more static poses for the pvc casting ( we will however be selling high end quality resin casts as well). Board gamers also strongly dislike assembling miniatures so keeping them as a single piece miniature as much as possible is another added factor.

We will likely run future small miniature kickstarters that will see us producing miniatures more aimed for tabletop gamers and collectors and their poses will most defiantly be dynamic. until then our apologies but this is how it will have to be.