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Author Topic: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth  (Read 25038 times)

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #105 on: May 19, 2016, 01:09:27 PM »
Some design thoughts on the 'real' Hornburg
Doug Larsen’s excellent article on Helm’s Deep (Miniature Wargames, November 1996, issue 162) first alerted me to the many inaccuracies of the non-canon sources about the physical layout of Helm’s Deep. This and many more in depth articles on battles in Middle Earth can be seen on his excellent site http://larsen-family.us/~1066/ In the main I agree with much of his analysis and his conclusions.

A castle in the round
The Hornburg is a free-standing castle, not one built up against the cliff face of the Thrihyrne as usually shown in role-playing maps and board games and subsequently cemented in popular lore through 'The Two Towers' film.

"At Helm's Gate, before the mouth of the Deep, there was a heel of rock thrust outward by the northern cliff. There upon its spur stood high walls of ancient stone...."

The heel of rock is a projection from the main mountainside and its spur is the furthest-reaching extent of this ridge. This suggests the Hornburg was a far more three-dimensional structure perched on a rocky outcrop to one side of the coombe than the dug-in gun-emplacement like fortress popularly depicted.
Whether the walls of the Hornburg itself were built any taller than the Deeping Wall is a moot point. In the later stages of the attack, the defenders fought off repeated attempts by Isengarders to climb the citadel walls, suggesting that the ladders and grapnels provided were long enough for both without resort to over elaborate siege engines as in the film...

Tolkien described a postern gate on the side closest to the cliff side
“There was a small postern door that opened in an angle of the burg wall on the west, where the cliff stretched out to meet it. On that side a narrow path ran round towards the great gate, between the wall and the sheer brink of the Rock.”

This was used by Aragorn and Eomer and a handful of defenders to launch a flank attack against the enemy battering at the main gate. This shows that the outer walls of the Hornburg were not joined to the cliff face. Nor was the path to the gate broken by any sheer drop, so Gimli was able to join the fight in front of the gate without resorting to any comic assistance from Aragorn as in the film.

Aragorn is later described passing around the "circuit" of the outer wall which again suggests a continuous and fully-enclosed defensive ringwork. The mention of an ‘angle’ in the quote above suggests a more irregular, contour-hugging curtain wall, much like the hilltop Cathar castles of the South of France and hilltop Alcazars in Spain.
Tolkien never alludes to the popular horseshoe-shaped enclosure with cliffs to the rear popularised by the PJ film. It would be an absurd way to build a castle: the enemy could get on the steep cliffs above and rain down dislodged boulders into the place. A high sided narrow castle would also provide a measure of protection from above if overlooked, far better than a castle with a more open plan sprawling footprint.

The Keep
At the centre of the ring of defensive wall of the Hornburg is a single tower
“and within them was a lofty tower."

“Aragorn strode through the inner court, and mounted to a high chamber in the tower”.

This was the same tower from which

“above, the sound of the great horn of Helm rang out”

This is fully in line with the classic castle arrangement of inner bailey with donjon or keep. There is no mention of other towers on the wall perimeter (though there may be some projecting bastions). The tower containing Helm’s horn is featured in the PJ film, but incongruously to one side of the defence and so buttressed as to provide little or no defensive value through arrowslits or vantage points from which to defend either the Hornburg or the Deeping Wall. If compact enough, the central tower could provide covering fire for the outer walls in the same manner as concentric castles developed in Outremer. It suggests to me an arrangement with a shell keep containing ranges of buildings abutting the outer wall with a central tower, possibly like Tretower Castle in Powys, Wales...

The Causeway
The main approach towards the Hornburg is first described when Theoden’s party arrive.

“Before the causeway that crossed the stream they dismounted. In a long file they led their horses up the ramp and passed within the gates of the Hornburg.”

This implies a) that the approach way was narrow and b) that it was steep for a horse and rider to ascend while mounted, but not too steep that they could not charge down it when Theoden sallied forth.
“…towards the causeway and the ramp that led up to the Hornburg gates.”
This is described as a two stage process, first moving along the causeway and then ascending the ramp to the rocky platform upon which the Hornburg was built.

”They reached the summit of the rock; they drove towards the gates”.

A change in angle or line of approach would serve to disrupt an assault and hamper the use of siege engines. It would serve to prevent attackers gaining momentum from a dash against the gates. The sweeping curve of the film version lends no additional defensive value, whereas an approach angled the other way would force the attackers to expose their shieldless sides to the defenders. The approach was wide enough for a pair of rams to be wielded, one at each gate.

“while in their midst they bore two trunks of mighty trees”.

The Main gate
The immediate vicinity of the gate utilised the steep rocky outcrop and the rock strewn Deeping stream below which acted as a moat as it curled around the base of the Hornburg.
The main gates were timber with great iron hinges and bars. They were wide enough to admit cavalry and wide enough to merit two rams attacking it at once. No other detail is provided, and Tolkien makes no mention of even a rudimentary drawbridge or removable walkway and no portcullis when such measures would seem advisable.

The Rear Gate
An additional rear gate provided access from the Hornburg to the rear of the Deeping Coombe

“A broad stairway climbed from the Deep up to the Rock and the rear-gate of the Hornburg”

Because of the horseshoe shape of the film version, there was no rear, so this was omitted. The projecting spur described in the book provides a space behind which provided communication with the defile and the caves of Aglarond in the cliffs behind.

The Deeping Wall
"A wall, too, the men of old had made from the Hornburg to the southern cliff...."
“The Deeping Wall was twenty feet high” (or two storeys, which is considerably lower than visualised in the PJ film)
“and so thick that four men could walk abreast along the top” (which would make the walkway at least 8 feet wide, if not a little more, or 32-40mm wide in gaming terms).
It was;
“sheltered by a parapet over which only a tall man could look” (say 6 feet or a figure’s height or 25mm-30mm in modelling terms)
“Here and there were clefts in the stone through which men could shoot”.
On the face of it suggests an irregular arrangement of embrasures, but that makes little sense from a military architecture standpoint.
Another postern gate on the open Coombe side gave access to the wall walk.
“This battlement could be reached by a stair running down from a door in the outer court of the Hornburg”
When Eomer and Aragorn respond to the threat on the Hornburg Gate, they use this access point “Running like fire, they sped along the wall, and up the steps, and passed into the outer court upon the Rock.”
There were also steps at intervals from the Deeping Coombe behind…
“Three flights of steps led also up on to the wall from the Deep behind; but in front it was smooth, and the great stones of it were set with such skill that no foothold could be found at their joints”.

” and at the top they hung over like a sea-delved cliff”
This could be Tolkien-speak for projecting machiols by which the defenders could see (and shoot) at the base of the wall. Tolkien describes how Eomer readied the defence referring to
“the Deeping Wall and its tower”.
A tower of sorts is featured in the PJ films at the junction between the Deeping wall and the wall rising to join the Hornburg. It would make more sense for this to be at the end farthest from the Hornburg, providing additional covering fire along the front of the Deeping Wall.

The Culvert
The Deeping Wall was pierced by a culvert allowing egress for the Deeping stream. It was not the man height arched passageway depicted in the films, but just large enough for a man to crawl through, a couple of feet wide at most. It was small enough that it was not deemed necessary to fit iron bars. Indeed seasonal flood waters from the Deeping stream may well have precluded such a measure being practicable, since debris might build up without being washed through, causing flooding. This is precisely what happened when the way was stopped to prevent Uruk 'rats' sneaking in. The position of this culvert is not known, though geography would suggest it ran down the lowest point of the Coombe, but this curled around the base of the rocky outcrop of the Hornburg before turning and making its way down through the Dyke and into the wider Coombe below.

Fire of Saruman
This was the game changer in the assault, which was otherwise an old-school storm, with battering rams, ladders and grapnels. It is generally accepted as some form of rudimentary blasting charge cooked up by Saruman, and an art known to most high ranking wizards given Gandalf's fondness for making fireworks, though how it is kept viable in the pouring rain is a moot point.
In the book blasting charges were used on at least three occasions. Once inside the blocked culvert, and at least once more in subsequent attacks against the Deeping Wall. A blasting charge also clears the debris and barricades barring entrance through the shattered Hornburg gateway (almost blowing up Aragorn in the process).

Warriors dreams, summer grasses, all that remains

Offline Vermis

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2016, 09:27:41 PM »
Brilliant topic. :D

Quote
"At Helm's Gate, before the mouth of the Deep, there was a heel of rock thrust outward by the northern cliff. There upon its spur stood high walls of ancient stone...."

Quote
The mention of an ‘angle’ in the quote above suggests a more irregular, contour-hugging curtain wall, much like the hilltop Cathar castles of the South of France and hilltop Alcazars in Spain.

Reminds me of Carrickfergus castle, except it's on a heel of rock thrust outward into Belfast Lough. Though I'm biased.  ;)

Quote
It would be an absurd way to build a castle: the enemy could get on the steep cliffs above and rain down dislodged boulders into the place.

I'd say there was a little confusion about "an angle of the burg wall on the west, where the cliff stretched out to meet it".

There are also the 'low hills' and 'long slopes' of the western side of the Deeping Coomb, that Gandalf and Erkenbrand (and about a thousand screaming Rohirrim) come charging down. The same side that the spur of rock thrusts out from, and the horseshoe gun-emplacement depictions of the Hornburg. Could I assume they'd be inviting and helpful to any enemy that wanted to scale Thrihyrne and rain rocks down on the keep?

Quote
A tower of sorts is featured in the PJ films at the junction between the Deeping wall and the wall rising to join the Hornburg. It would make more sense for this to be at the end farthest from the Hornburg, providing additional covering fire along the front of the Deeping Wall.

I pulled out The Atlas of Middle Earth after reading through this post. It features a tower too, and it's at the end farthest from the Hornburg! :) Nestled against the south-eastern cliff like a little mirror image of the horseshoeburg. Checking the source...

"The king and the men of his household were in the Hornburg, and there also were many of the Westfold-men. But on the Deeping Wall and it's tower, and behind it, Éomer arrayed most of the strength that he had..."

No mention of where the Deeping Wall's tower is placed, but I'll defer to wiser heads.

Quote
A change in angle or line of approach would serve to disrupt an assault and hamper the use of siege engines. It would serve to prevent attackers gaining momentum from a dash against the gates.

Again, wiser heads, deferring, but did Tolkien mention a change in angle of the causeway?

Offline Dilettante Gamer

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2016, 11:43:47 PM »
Fantastic exploration of the source material Sukhe and Vermis!!  Enjoying the thoughtfulness here.
With goodwill to all and malice towards none...

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Offline Hobgoblin

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #108 on: May 19, 2016, 11:58:23 PM »
Quote
Fire of Saruman
This was the game changer in the assault, which was otherwise an old-school storm, with battering rams, ladders and grapnels. It is generally accepted as some form of rudimentary blasting charge cooked up by Saruman, and an art known to most high ranking wizards given Gandalf's fondness for making fireworks, though how it is kept viable in the pouring rain is a moot point.
In the book blasting charges were used on at least three occasions. Once inside the blocked culvert, and at least once more in subsequent attacks against the Deeping Wall. A blasting charge also clears the debris and barricades barring entrance through the shattered Hornburg gateway (almost blowing up Aragorn in the process).

It's also worth noting that it's the Uruk-hai (rather than Dunlendings) who deliver the charge, which neatly matches up with The Hobbit's description of goblins as interested in machineries of destruction:

"It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them ..."

So the "blasting fire" may well be Saruman's invention, but if so, it plays to the interests of his goblins, who put it to use on the battlefield.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 11:45:53 AM by Hobgoblin »

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #109 on: May 20, 2016, 11:39:31 AM »
Looking at images of Carrickfergus Castle, I can see your point Vermis. I think I shall be looking more closely at the layout and architectural details. I'm liking the rocky promontory and the multi angular curtain wall, though I think I might go the way of Orford Castle with the tower/keep... ;) :D

Offline Hammers

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #110 on: May 20, 2016, 09:35:34 PM »
Didn't Tolkien make an actual drawing of the Hornburg? I think he did...

EDIT: yes he did... Google Hornburg Tolkien drawing and you'll find it.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 09:42:21 PM by Hammers »

Offline Vermis

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #111 on: May 21, 2016, 12:26:59 AM »
Wish I was half as thorough as some if these guys, DG. :D I'm sitting back and enjoying it as much as you.

EDIT: yes he did... Google Hornburg Tolkien drawing and you'll find it.

This one? I hadn't seen that before. Answers another question I was going to look up - if Tolkien intended a square or round tower. :D (though after googling Orford Castle, Sukhe, I don't blame you at all for preferring that!)

It looks like it's still got an element of the horseshoe design, but I'm too much of a medieval architecture noob to say more about that...

Looking at images of Carrickfergus Castle, I can see your point Vermis. I think I shall be looking more closely at the layout and architectural details.

... or that! I don't know what's info's online, but there are descriptions, illustrations and diagrams of it's history and construction in the castle's own souvenir book - this one. Been meaning for years to use it to build my own tiny version! I can grab a few excerpts, if you like.

Offline Mr.J

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #112 on: May 21, 2016, 10:10:26 AM »


Is this the one?

Offline Vermis

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #113 on: May 21, 2016, 05:14:46 PM »
I think so. There don't seem to be any others. It strikes me because, just after peering at the plan of the Hornburg and Helm's Gate in The Atlas of Middle Earth, I thought it was 'just' another horseshoe depiction. Turns out it's pretty faithful to Tolkien's own conception:



It might still be bad castle design! I don't know if that small ~30°, ~60' break in the wall, or the shoulder of the cliff 'stretching out to meet it', makes much difference.

(I've also just read that the movie Helm's Deep was intended to look like a WWI bunker or gun emplacement, due to Tolkien's own military service. Can't help but think 'I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations...')
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 05:23:55 PM by Vermis »

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #114 on: May 23, 2016, 08:12:42 AM »
Well that's an eye opener and no mistake! :o :o :o
I hadn't realised Tolkien had drawn the Hornburg. The broad sweeping arc of the Deeping Dyke indicated by the drawing and the map in the 'Atlas' both go a long way to explaining that Theoden was accurate in saying it was indefensible "Nay were are too few to defend the dike; said Theoden. It is a mile long or more, and the breach in it is wide."
Interestingly, the drawing shows what I take to be periodic turrets? in both the Deeping Wall and the far wall. Plus there are what appear to be additional angled bastions on the far wall. There is also no discernible tower at the end of the Deeping Wall which makes it look like this is an earlier vizualisation than the final book description. 
The stand off from the cliff-side makes sense distancing the inner compound from being overlooked from above, but as Vermis points out I'm not sure of the practical sense to the break in the outer wall at the cliff. In effect the area behind the Deeping Wall serves as an outer bailey, though unusually it can only be accessed through the Hornburg. I also can't find any reference to an outer courtyard in the book, only an inner one. If you removed the broken outer circuit and wall and just had the unbroken inner one it would make more sense militarily. Also the causeway approach is far too straight. Even with a steep gradient it would present no significant difficulty to siege engines, even rudimentary battering rams. The Romans at Masada had a far steeper gradient and still managed it...
The look of the Hornburg is reminiscent of shell keeps, and reminds me very much of reconstructions of the revetted motte and bailey castle at South Mimms.
http://www.castlestudiesgroup.org.uk/_wp_generated/wp3e4564eb_06.png
This had a tunnel approach cut into the base of the motte up through to the higher level and would not strictly have had an inner courtyard since the motte and tower defence were effectively treated as a single build.
The insertion of square towers into pre-existing motte and bailey castles in England was largely a feature of the C12 and the same use of steps cut through the motte is replicated to some degree in stone at Farnham Castle
http://image.slidesharecdn.com/hftfudsqa6uraj34i1ll-signature-b364ae7451744733dcc755380a0fdd37c48e35141dcd6c4651f0227b4c826d43-poli-141107020142-conversion-gate02/95/routledgemedievalenglandasocialhistoryandarchaeologyfromtheconquestto1600addec1995-30-638.jpg?cb=1415325756
That might be what is rendered in Tolkien's drawing which has been misinterpreted in the 'Atlas' and might explain the disparity. Since the Hornburg is on a rocky outcrop this would look cool build in stone... ;)
As I surmised, the tower is tall enough to overlook and provide covering fire for the outer walls. I'm not sure why the square keep's corners (which are effectively blind spots) would point at the front and rear entrances (the weakest points of the defence). This is why circular towers were invented after all.
Serious food for thought here... 8)

 

Offline Vermis

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #115 on: May 23, 2016, 12:39:01 PM »
I'm having a little trouble following. Going by the title of the Farnham Castle image, 'the keep' in both these real life examples refers to the tower, the surrounding wall (the 'shell' of the shell keep?) and the open space in between; as opposed to the keep being just the central building or tower, with an inner courtyard surrounded by a wall. Is that how you interpret the tower and the inner wall in Tolkien's sketch?

That brings up more questions. o_o

If these examples don't strictly have an inner courtyard, how does that square with the mentions of the inner courtyard in TTT?

That is, if the inner courtyard would have been the area inside the inner wall, as per South Mimms and Farnham, why is the area enclosed by the circuit wall referred to as the inner courtyard? (Again, if I read your interpretation correctly) Why would there be both a keep and courtyard in-one, represented by the inner wall, and an additional 'inner' courtyard represented by the outer wall?

Disregarding any misconceptions by the author, that is, which I still think is throwing a spanner in the works, somewhere. Though going by the scale bars, the diameter of what 'Atlas' calls the inner courtyard (assuming it's accurate to the measurements of Tolkien's conception) seems to be more comparable to the wall of Farnham Castle: ~30m. Is it possible that the Hornburg's circuit wall encloses an outer courtyard or bailey all the same, even though it's not mentioned in TTT? With the spur of rock being a natural 'motte', big enough to hold both keep and courtyard? (I'll have to re-read, but were isengarders able to directly assault the circuit wall anywhere, except via the ramp and rear stairway?)

That's not to dispute what you say. It's just that I'm fairly confused and, as said, not exactly au fait.

(I can see me ending up like Richard Dreyfuss in Close Encounters, obsessively shaping mini Hornburgs out of mashed potatoes)
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 12:41:38 PM by Vermis »

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #116 on: May 23, 2016, 01:35:28 PM »
Like you I am feeling an urge to model in mash potato at this point.... lol lol lol

Looking more closely at the two images, I'm afraid I just don't trust the accuracy of the 'Atlas' diagram interpreting Tolkien's sketch.
If you look at the sketch, just to the right of the main gate, the outer wall of the Hornburg appears to curve inwards to join the inner one. A second wall appears to extends from close by this junction and runs to the cliff face with additional V shaped bastions in front. This is presumably where the postern gate is positioned and you can just make out the path immediately below the outer wall which ran from the postern gate round to the main gate. This is not reflected in the 'Atlas' diagram which is altogether far more geometric and idealised.

If you look at the tower and its immediate circuit more closely, it is shaded almost to suggest roof tops, NOT like an open space. Tolkien's style elsewhere in the drawing uses lines to suggest and emphasize contours and faces. This seems deliberate and not a fudge or simple overshading.
I believe this represents something like Tretower Castle, where a tower was inserted within an existing O and internal buildings were created spanning the space between the two. This would create something like a 2 tier wedding cake. It would explain why there is reference to only one court in The Two Towers. The 'inner court' illustrated on the 'Atlas' is not open space at all but a building. This would mean the 'inner court' refers to the enclosure on top of the Hornrock. As I surmised earlier the enclosed space within the Deeping Coombe thus becomes a de facto outer bailey.

This would be entirely consistent with a logical 'real world' chronology of occupation and modification of the site...

1) The original Deeping dyke and rampart were cut to create a large enclosure in front of the Deeping coombe with pasturage for livestock etc. creating a 'hillfort' in a period analagous to prehistory.

2) The Deeping Wall is constructed in stone at a narrower point within this enclosure utilising the outcrop of the Hornrock. It is built up its side over the Deeping stream and round the edge of the outcrop hugging the edge and extending to the far cliff side. An enclosure wall is extended from where the Deeping stream cuts through and encloses the remaining part of the Hornrock extending to the cliff side behind.

3) The first 'burg' an inner 'O' shaped fort (the shell keep) is built within this upper enclosure.

4) Helm Hammerhand remodels the shell keep with an inner tower creating the two-tier citadel.

The Hornrock was too sheer for an assault except through the main and rear gates. Once the Isengarders had gained the Hornrock through these gates, they were able to assail the Hornburg itself from all round. The defenders repelled repeated attempts to gain the Hornburg walls before Theoden's sally.

This seems to make sense to me...


Offline Brandlin

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #117 on: May 25, 2016, 03:10:46 PM »
Interesting discussion.

However I doubt that the "inner court" is covered as discussed for a couple of reasons.

Firstly judging by the scale (and assuming the scale matches tolkiens original intent) that inner wall is around 100ft (30m) in width. Estimating the tower to be 1/3 of that width, that leaves the span from tower to inner wall to be in the order of 30ft (10m). That's a very very large single span. I accept that middle earth is a magical realm, but it is very grounded in medieval Western European history and technology. Yes, 10m could be spanned with supporting columns, but why? It's an awful lot of work to produce a covered courtyard, and for what benefit? Certainly both the inner and outer courtyards would support buildings but I'd expect them to be 'organic' mismatched constructions in wood and stone. These buildings would be roofed for weather protection, but what real benefit is there in roofing the spaces between buildings?

Secondly, any roof over the inner courtyard would make the whole thing pitch black. You couldn't put significant openings in the outer wall to admit light as the wall is a defensive structure. Putting enough openings in the roof to admit light would mostly eliminate the sense in roofing it in the first place. A roofed inner courtyard of that size would be a bleak horrible space.

I think your chronology makes sense, and your observations about the defensibility, steepness/straightness of the causeway, lack of turrets/towers in the wall and location of the posture gate all make sense to me.

We have to remember Tolkien was a historian/linguist/author. Whilst he often had great internal consistency in his writings, there ARE mistakes and inconsistencies. Whilst I'm sure he had an interest in architecture, he never set out in his books to provide blueprints and often his language uses words with a variety of meanings which can lead to misinterpretations.

I'm enjoying the debate, but would be happy with any terrain/model that came close to the TTT diagram.

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #118 on: May 25, 2016, 04:08:02 PM »
I agree the donjon and Hornburg are perhaps the most interesting and contentious part of the defensive works, open to interpretation by JRRT's evocative but vague language.
I find it amusing that many 'fans' don't realise that both Orthanc and the Hornburg were originally built by Gondor and are pretty much contemporary builds, yet if the films are to be believed there is little architecturally to suggest these structures had a common origin.

The medieval tech is far better than you might think...
Restormel Castle comfortably achieves 7m roof spans on it's curtain wall buildings
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e0/18/0f/e0180ff7c07e78bf5621c46c35e61848.jpg
while Hedingham castle (1140's) achieves the largest single span arch in Europe. And a sight to behold it is. I've stood underneath that huge arch in the hall and gazed up in wonder... :D
http://home2.btconnect.com/Crusader-Product/Hedingham-Castle/hedingham-great-hall1.jpg
Tretower castle apparently was not roofed all the way round, possibly 2/3 to 3/4 of its circuit was occupied by two storey curtain walls with little light. It must indeed have been a dingy place.
http://i2.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article6289528.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/JS28564424.jpg
http://www.castlewales.com/tretwr12.jpg
The similarities between this and Launceston castle
http://www.dronestagr.am/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Castle-1a.jpg
and Tolkien's Hornburg seem entirely plausible to me. The fact that both Launceston and Tretower have circular donjons is down to their chronology. The shell keeps were added first once the man-made earth mottes had time to settle and the donjon was inserted afterwards. By that time the military tech had changed and the transition from square to circular tower masonry styles had been achieved. The Hornburg was built on a rock foundation, so the familiar castle development from square to faceted to circular style need not be applied on practical grounds.
In these types of combi-castle, the halls and living quarters were often located around the periphery (where there was more light). Standalone keeps like Hedingham had a status and residential function. The central tower in a 'combi' was designed for pure defence and refuge. Either way its an interesting alternative to the run of the mill castles you see...

I'll be exploring a feasible plan and build in the not too distant future.

Offline sukhe_bator

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Re: Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth
« Reply #119 on: May 26, 2016, 10:27:27 AM »
My speculative chronology for the occupation of the Deeping Coombe and the Hornburg...

And an initial sketch of the Hornburg, with a central square donjon/tower at the heart of a polygonal two storey circuit wall with gateway and talus all around. The machiols are the same as for the Deeping Wall giving it the overhang described as hanging over like a sea-delved cliff.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 10:58:36 AM by sukhe_bator »

 

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