Sukhe's Armies of Middle Earth

[sukhe_bator]

AND with LOTS of ketchup!

[Dilettante Gamer]

Good news is that those GW Uruk Hai are basically 3 colors - metal, flesh, wood - a wash plus highlights.  You can power through that. 

It's a marathon, not a sprint.   

[sukhe_bator]

I agree they are pretty monotonous compared to some minis, but rebasing them all takes time, that and making up another 5 'nobori' style flags which will slow me down. Then there's painting the 'S' runes on all the helmets and hand prints on the 'braves', plus converting 7 swordsmen into 'centurions'...

[Lt. Tibbles]

I am absolutely blown away by the size, scope, and quality of your collection. I stand in awe of you sir, this is honestly some amazing work!

[sukhe_bator]

I am absolutely blown away by the size, scope, and quality of your collection. I stand in awe of you sir, this is honestly some amazing work!

many thanks Lt. Tibbles. It has been a long, long, long time in development and will undoubtedly take a lot more time to finish 
Now that I have approaching the numbers I need I have been looking critically at recreating The Battle of the Hornburg (Helm's Deep). Before I launch into another building project I have been looking at the canon source material for inspiration. My research has pointed to there being significant differences between the widely accepted non-canon LotR gaming/film layout and what is described in The Two Towers, and through the observations of like minded individuals, like Doug Larsen
http://larsen-family.us/~1066/
More to follow at some point...

[Hobgoblin]

This thread continues to amaze!

Looking at the Doug Larsen essay on Helm's Deep, I spot a couple of odd things:

1. He leaves out the half-orcs. When (in "Flotsam and Jetsam") Merry and Pippin describe the 'horrible' Men with goblin-faces, Aragorn says "we had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm's Deep". That adds an extra dimension to Gamling's "these creatures of Saruman, these half-orcs and goblin-men". At the time, that reference seems to be to the Uruk-hai, but in the context of the later quote, it implies that there are two types of orcish soldier in Saruman's service: somewhat Mannish Orcs (the Uruk-hai) and somewhat Orcish Men (of the sort seen later in the Shire).

2. I don't think there's anything in LotR that indicates that Saruman had significant numbers of small Orcs in his service. The narrative makes frequent reference simply to "Orcs", but these Orcs say "We are the fighting Uruk-hai". And the Uruk-hai are usually described as "Orcs" by the narrator.

Anyway, it'll be great to see what you do with Helm's Deep!

[sukhe_bator]

I've been re-reading the 'Helm's Deep chapter in The Two Towers and re watching clips from the PJ Film by way of research for my next project...
There are some major discrepancies between the film version and the book version. Before I examine the book sources in detail, I've a few comments about the film (which don't get me wrong I thoroughly enjoyed but will nevertheless NOT be basing my Hornburg project on)

Ten things about the Film version of Helm’s Deep that make no military sense.
1.   No moat
The most rudimentary fundamental defensive work is a ditch and bank. This speaks more to Hollywood than anything else where such features are rarely shown, but it would appear, according to Peter Jackson, that the ditch was not invented anywhere in Middle Earth. In The Two Towers Tolkien mentions an older defensive structure further down the Deeping Coombe called the Deeping Dyke, incorporating a steep ditch and earth bank, so although moats and ditches aren’t specifically mentioned, their presence is pretty much implicit.
2.   A castle built into the cliff side
Undoubtedly this looks good, but the possibility of attack from above has not been considered. Tolkien speaks of hidden fissures and secret ways into the mountains behind the Deeping Coombe. Far better would be to have a standalone circuit. This also prevents there being a rear gate or other way out, so unsurprisingly when the defenders are overrun the rest are trapped inside the ‘keep’ with only one entrance/exit.
3.   No drawbridge or portcullis
This is also an omission on Tolkien’s part, who speaks only of a causeway and ramp up to the Hornburg gate. However, another of the most rudimentary defensive works is a removable bridge spanning a ditch or stream. This could be something as simple as removable planks, through to a graceful bascule drawbridge.
4.   The approach curves the wrong way
Most castle approaches and stairs will direct a would-be attacker to expose their undefended/shieldless side to fire from a number of vantage points on the wall. The causeway approach in the film curves (I suspect more for cinematic effect than practicality) from the centre of the coombe so that an attacker can approach shielded from fire.
5.   Walls you have to look over to see
Sounds stupid I know, but battlements are designed to protect the defender from missile fire. Having to expose yourself to enemy fire in order to shoot at oncoming attackers exposes a fundamental flaw in the design of the defensive works. There is a reason why medieval battlements look the way they do.
6.   Embrasures that don’t work
Linked to the above, but another feature of battlements is the ability to see the base of the wall you are defending. The placement of such defences with covering fields of fire is key to a good wall defence. The design of embrasure looks far more suited to gunpowder artillery than anything else.
7.   A Postern gate to nowhere
Having to leap a gap to reach the main gate makes a complete nonsense of the sally port, which should enable a rapid, unimpeded and sudden attack by the defenders when needed. 
8.   Inner entrances without gates
The concentric rings of PJ’s Hornburg make no sense without defended doorways to delay an attack. Once the main gate is taken, the Uruk-Hai swarm in unhindered all the way to the inner bailey. An overhead walkway also leads straight from the inner bailey to the outer wall, without a gate or door to close it, albeit covered by a rudimentary machiol.
9.   A walk-in culvert with access on the outside!
Nice of the defenders to provide a convenient man-height tunnel through the entire thickness of the main defensive wall, with a metal grating on the wrong inner, rather than outer face of the wall.  Tolkien’s original culvert was no bigger than one person could crawl through, in much the same manner as some garderobe culverts of medieval castles (not a job for the squeamish). Tolkien omitted a metal grate, which would also have made more sense.
10.   Pike’s Vs Masonry
Quite what the Uruk-Hai hoped to achieve with a mass frontal charge of pike armed troops, whose pikes don’t even reach halfway up the wall is a mystery to me. In The Two Towers, the Deeping Wall is only 20 feet high, and pike armed troops could conceivably stab at the embrasures with their pikes. Pike armed Uruks are referred to in the Lost Tales at the Battle of the Fords of Isen, where they attack the defenders of the earth and timber causeway forts guarding the Isen crossing. They also have a part to play fending off a predominantly cavalry enemy in the open, which would be an important consideration fighting in Rohan. However, their tactical value in a storming is questionable. PJ does have them in use as props/guides for the storming ladders which is an interesting idea...

Next up. The canon sources on the Hornburg

[Hupp n at em]

I've been re-reading the 'Helm's Deep chapter in The Two Towers and re watching clips from the PJ Film by way of research for my next project...
There are some major discrepancies between the film version and the book version. Before I examine the book sources in detail, I've a few comments about the film (which don't get me wrong I thoroughly enjoyed but will nevertheless NOT be basing my Hornburg project on)

Ten things about the Film version of Helm’s Deep that make no military sense.
1.   No moat
The most rudimentary fundamental defensive work is a ditch and bank. This speaks more to Hollywood than anything else where such features are rarely shown, but it would appear, according to Peter Jackson, that the ditch was not invented anywhere in Middle Earth. In The Two Towers Tolkien mentions an older defensive structure further down the Deeping Coombe called the Deeping Dyke, incorporating a steep ditch and earth bank, so although moats and ditches aren’t specifically mentioned, their presence is pretty much implicit.
2.   A castle built into the cliff side
Undoubtedly this looks good, but the possibility of attack from above has not been considered. Tolkien speaks of hidden fissures and secret ways into the mountains behind the Deeping Coombe. Far better would be to have a standalone circuit. This also prevents there being a rear gate or other way out, so unsurprisingly when the defenders are overrun the rest are trapped inside the ‘keep’ with only one entrance/exit.
3.   No drawbridge or portcullis
This is also an omission on Tolkien’s part, who speaks only of a causeway and ramp up to the Hornburg gate. However, another of the most rudimentary defensive works is a removable bridge spanning a ditch or stream. This could be something as simple as removable planks, through to a graceful bascule drawbridge.
4.   The approach curves the wrong way
Most castle approaches and stairs will direct a would-be attacker to expose their undefended/shieldless side to fire from a number of vantage points on the wall. The causeway approach in the film curves (I suspect more for cinematic effect than practicality) from the centre of the coombe so that an attacker can approach shielded from fire.
5.   Walls you have to look over to see
Sounds stupid I know, but battlements are designed to protect the defender from missile fire. Having to expose yourself to enemy fire in order to shoot at oncoming attackers exposes a fundamental flaw in the design of the defensive works. There is a reason why medieval battlements look the way they do.
6.   Embrasures that don’t work
Linked to the above, but another feature of battlements is the ability to see the base of the wall you are defending. The placement of such defences with covering fields of fire is key to a good wall defence. The design of embrasure looks far more suited to gunpowder artillery than anything else.
7.   A Postern gate to nowhere
Having to leap a gap to reach the main gate makes a complete nonsense of the sally port, which should enable a rapid, unimpeded and sudden attack by the defenders when needed. 
8.   Inner entrances without gates
The concentric rings of PJ’s Hornburg make no sense without defended doorways to delay an attack. Once the main gate is taken, the Uruk-Hai swarm in unhindered all the way to the inner bailey. An overhead walkway also leads straight from the inner bailey to the outer wall, without a gate or door to close it, albeit covered by a rudimentary machiol.
9.   A walk-in culvert with access on the outside!
Nice of the defenders to provide a convenient man-height tunnel through the entire thickness of the main defensive wall, with a metal grating on the wrong inner, rather than outer face of the wall.  Tolkien’s original culvert was no bigger than one person could crawl through, in much the same manner as some garderobe culverts of medieval castles (not a job for the squeamish). Tolkien omitted a metal grate, which would also have made more sense.
10.   Pike’s Vs Masonry
Quite what the Uruk-Hai hoped to achieve with a mass frontal charge of pike armed troops, whose pikes don’t even reach halfway up the wall is a mystery to me. In The Two Towers, the Deeping Wall is only 20 feet high, and pike armed troops could conceivably stab at the embrasures with their pikes. Pike armed Uruks are referred to in the Lost Tales at the Battle of the Fords of Isen, where they attack the defenders of the earth and timber causeway forts guarding the Isen crossing. They also have a part to play fending off a predominantly cavalry enemy in the open, which would be an important consideration fighting in Rohan. However, their tactical value in a storming is questionable. PJ does have them in use as props/guides for the storming ladders which is an interesting idea...

Next up. The canon sources on the Hornburg

Makes sense to me, never thought about most of this. 

[Hobgoblin]

10.   Pikes Vs Masonry
Quite what the Uruk-Hai hoped to achieve with a mass frontal charge of pike armed troops, whose pikes don’t even reach halfway up the wall is a mystery to me. In The Two Towers, the Deeping Wall is only 20 feet high, and pike armed troops could conceivably stab at the embrasures with their pikes. Pike armed Uruks are referred to in the Lost Tales at the Battle of the Fords of Isen, where they attack the defenders of the earth and timber causeway forts guarding the Isen crossing.

I agree with all of your points above, but permit me to quibble with a detail here! I don't think there's any evidence that the Isengarder pikemen were Uruks. Here's the quote:

"The enemy was in fact in positions prepared for the event, behind trenches manned by pikemen, and Theodred in the leading eored was brought to a stand and almost surrounded, for new forces hastening from Isengard were now outflanking him upon the west."

Now, we know that the forces that fought Theodred contained both Men and Orcs (and half-orcs, but they're classed as "Men"). I don't think pikemen is quite conclusive in itself, as I can think of one instance (in The Hobbit) where Tolkien refers to "a goblin swordsman", but it is suggestive (and we don't get that sort of usage recurring in LotR).

More than that, though, the Uruks at the Isen are described as "trained to move at great speeds for long distances". They're heavily armed but fast-moving infantry, which fits with the description of Ugluk's troop (armour, longbows, swords, large shields), but seems an unlikely fit with pike-armed troops. The unarmoured Dunlendings, on the other hand, have echoes of the Celtic fringe about them - and Scots and Welsh pikemen seem to provide an obvious source of inspiration.

[jthomlin]

You have to be careful about the term 'pike'.

To a modern wargamer this immediately conjures images of 20 foot spears wielded by Macedonians or Swiss, but the term has also been used for the 12 foot spears of the Scottish 'schiltron' and even the 5 foot long 'Croft's Pikes' that English home guard were issued with in WWII.

Churchhill:  "every man must have a weapon of some kind, be it only a mace or pike"

Beefeaters are also usually described as armed with a 'pike' and they are only 6 foot at best.

At best, all you can infer from the term in Tolkien's case is 'a pole with a pointy bit at the end'.

Cheers!
Joe Thomlinson

[Hobgoblin]

You have to be careful about the term 'pike'.

To a modern wargamer this immediately conjures images of 20 foot spears wielded by Macedonians or Swiss, but the term has also been used for the 12 foot spears of the Scottish 'schiltron' and even the 5 foot long 'Croft's Pikes' that English home guard were issued with in WWII.

Beefeaters are also usually described as armed with a 'pike' and they are only 6 foot at best.

At best, all you can infer from the term in Tolkien's case is 'a pole with a pointy bit at the end'.

Cheers!
Joe Thomlinson

That's an excellent point (pun intended!). 

If I had to guess, I'd reckon that Tolkien had the schiltron at the back of his mind, given the "Celtic fringe" echoes of Dunland (and the Dunlendings' poorly armoured nature - also reminiscent of medieval Scots and Welsh).

On reflection, I think the unmodified "pikemen" is highly suggestive of Dunlendings. One of the themes that Tolkien stresses in descriptions of the Isengard armies is that Orcs (Saruman's Uruk-hai) fight very differently from Men because of the former's smaller stature - see Gimli's complaints about the Dunlendings at Helm's Deep and also the note in Battle of the Fords of the Isen. So I'd have expected him to make a distinction (as he often does with "Orc-archers").

[sukhe_bator]

Fair point - pun intended, and my Dunlander contingent is as yet unresolved. I have yet to get suitable shaggy cavalry and I am considering using some of my spear and shield armed Kurdish tribesmen I'd originally earmarked as easterlings as proxy Dunlanders.
However, short on stature or not, on balance I'll stick with the PJ rendition of the Uruks. I like the faceless, anonymous armoured look reminiscent of the Roman legions. It's just the sort of mass produced army I'd envisage a Wizard coming up with, looking through old tomes and descriptions of ancient armies. The banded armour also looks like a cruder, more brutish version of the SA leaf-like Elvish armour.

[Hobgoblin]

Fair point - pun intended, and my Dunlander contingent is as yet unresolved. I have yet to get suitable shaggy cavalry and I am considering using some of my spear and shield armed Kurdish tribesmen I'd originally earmarked as easterlings as proxy Dunlanders.
However, short on stature or not, on balance I'll stick with the PJ rendition of the Uruks. I like the faceless, anonymous armoured look reminiscent of the Roman legions. It's just the sort of mass produced army I'd envisage a Wizard coming up with, looking through old tomes and descriptions of ancient armies. The banded armour also looks like a cruder, more brutish version of the SA leaf-like Elvish armour.

Makes sense. And it's hard to find "bookish" Uruk-hai - let alone large numbers of them!

(It's always seemed odd to me that PJ & co. didn't go for the simple route of making the Uruk-hai the half-orcs. There's that dreadful "he has crossed Orcs with goblin-men" line in the film, which makes no sense even in the context of the film universe - which establishes "Orc" and "goblin" as synonyms in Moria. Why the scriptwriters didn't just say "he has crossed Orcs with Men" and have done with it, I have no idea. I do, though, have the uncomfortable suspicion that they may have misremembered, or misread, Gamling's line at Helm's Deep - "these creatures of Saruman, these half-orcs and goblin-men" as "these creatures of Saruman, these half-orcs and half-goblin-men ...".)

[Argonor]

Great stuff, as always!

I need to go through this entire thread when I have time for it - right now it's about time I get to bed!

[Rob_bresnen]

I think its fair to say that niether Tolkien or Jackson are experts on castle architecture.