Have any members had a really negative sale on any groups or forums?

[Mr. Peabody]

Here on LAF I had two trades which left me with a sour taste. Both involved painted miniatures which were inadequately packed. So the metal miniatures were severly chipped and the plastic miniatures were broken.

I've had this happen as well, twice, and it is a shame. In one case

The worst sale I've had I could have avoided entirely, but I walked right into it. A a chap jerk who was new to to forum sent me a PM me about some old Warzone minis. We agreed on a lower price and then he stuck me with the eBay fees after we agreed that he would pay them. Dick moves. He never did post to a single thread. I could have seen it coming.

My gut feeling is this is a great community. This thread reminds me how rare that may be.

[throwsFireball]

Personally, guys, at this point I'd say name and shame. Who knows? You might all be talking about the same guy.

(Or at least drop me a message so I know who to avoid. :p)

[robh]

.........With PayPal as gift, I may be to untrusting, it's always a red flag to me so I offer to put in a few extra monies to cover the cost.
Personally I think of you are selling something you should take into account the fees with your selling price.

"Payment by gift only" is an absolute no-go for me also, if I see it in the sale listings I don't bother to consider buying but am prepared to pay extra to cover PayPal fees if that is the request (and often ask for this myself on low value sales). It is when you get a sale/price agreed and only then the seller demands gift payment that angers me.

Demanding payment by gift means you are puling a scam:
Either on me as buyer (not sending the goods and leaving me no way of making a claim)  or, insultingly  expecting me to play the "didn't arrive" game.
Or on PayPal (using the commercial service they provide but evading paying the charge for it)

Another issue on forum sales seems to be the idea that sellers are not responsible for the safe delivery of the item. You see it a lot on eBay, but increasingly on fora too.
Sellers working on the "if you want insurance you have to buy it" principle which is wrong.
Insured or not, sell something that fails to arrive or arrives broken and it is the sellers responsibility not the buyer (hence why PayPal will always side with them).
In the EU it is the law, not a grey area or up for debate but actual legislation.
If the seller wants the security of insurance they have to pay for it (then usually pass the cost along in the sale price) but without it they are running the risk not the buyer, you cannot abrogate legal responsibility simply by stating "no insurance no comeback".

[harleyface]

Regarding LAF
I just received some minis from a trade....
Im just happy
Its a pleasure to trade with people here...(ok...they should have posted more than once  .)
So many helpful people...
THANK YOU ALL
Florian

[eilif]

Why the hate for F&F? I always give people the option to pay as F&F or regular Paypal. 95 out of a 100 take F&F. Sure, most likely because when people want to pay with normal Paypal I insist on signed for and insured shipping, which for Dutch to EU mail doubles to triples the shipping costs, and sofar over the last few years I had 1 person agree to that. Everybody else took F&F and everyone got their goods. Sure, it is a risk, but isn't that always the case?

It seems pretty obvious why the distrust of F&F. 
-It gives the buyer no recourse if they are screwed by the seller. 
-It's against the Terms of Use you sign when you sign up to use Paypal as a seller.

Many forums specifically prohibit sellers from asking for F&F because they know how it can be abused and also if such behavior is tolerated on their forums then it may put the Forum Owner's use of Paypal in jeopardy.   

Having a Seller ask for P&P feels shady to me. If you tell people that if they use Paypal as intended you'll demand more expensive shipping that's also a bit manipulative, even if it is sort of a you-trust-me-I-trust-you kind of agreement.
Also, alot of folks may agree just because they don't want the seller to think they don't trust them.

The way I've used F&F is as buyer when purchasing from a seller I trust. I'll either go with F&F just because we're friends or as part of negotiation I'll offer to use F&F if the buyer will accept a lesser price.   

[manic _miner]

 It does seem like i am not the only one to have had a negative experience.

 There do seem to be lots of decent people who trade on this site.One of the reasons i list items from time to time.

 The friends and family payment is not one that i like to do but have done so in the past.

 Seems to be only a few bad apples spoil the barrel sort of situation.

 Like most i like to send items signed for just for the extra peace of mind.I always pack miniatures well as i know how much i would not like getting packages with broken miniatures in them.It has happened to me before though which is never nice.

 Things tend to get expensive when posting outside of the UK now and tracked post is always the best option for the seller.

 I can say at times it is hard for me to list miniatures from my collection even though i know i wont get around to them.Bit like a Dragon with his gold .

 Thanks for everyone's input on this topic.

[Mr. Peabody]

I think sellers can be targets for scams as well. And if you only sell one or two bits of your collection from time-to-time, it's not like you are going to make up that loss just selling more stuff.

I'll admit that this conversation has me seeing both sides of the "Friends & Family" argument though!

[Gunbird]

Having a Seller ask for P&P feels shady to me. If you tell people that if they use Paypal as intended you'll demand more expensive shipping that's also a bit manipulative, even if it is sort of a you-trust-me-I-trust-you kind of agreement.
Also, alot of folks may agree just because they don't want the seller to think they don't trust them.
 

You are misinterpreting this. Someone who wants F&F is not automatically a criminal of some sorts. Folks agree because it is the cheaper option, not because someone likes them or not. Also, manipulative? Paypal demands that you send registerd and insured else you are automatically out of your money (and your goods) when the customer/fellow forummember complains that something has not arrived (be that true or false)

For the average gamer who wants to sell some old mini's >>
Regular Paypal = Higher shipping fees because Paypal demands it = people don't buy because of the costs (unless it is a more expensive purchase.....Anything over 30 Pounds for me)
F&F = much lower shipping fees, usually half or a third of the normal Paypal option = people buy.

People vote with their money, if they can get it elsewhere cheaper they will get it there (I'm purely talking about occasionally selling off some surplus things to pay for new projects. I'm not talking about professional sellers or shops. Now that would be fraudulent) Ys, it is a risk, but I'm quite sick of it being called a criminal in advance just because I offer P&R and normal Paypal options. And I take your comment about manipulative very personal, as this is most certainly not the case.

This is the way I have been funding my hobby for years now, selling what I no longer use and 80% of the people I sell to are in the UK. And I'm not. Charging normal Dutch shipping fees would mean I would not be able to sell any of my old stuff, much too niche for most Dutch.

[robh]

Someone who wants F&F is not automatically a criminal of some sorts.

Actually, demanding payment for goods sold by use of PayPals F&F functionality is an evasion of the fees that they charge for providing the service and a breach of the user conditions you sign when you apply.
Don't like the fees......Don't use the service, find another way of selling internationally to an open customer base..... MoneyGram or Wire Transfer?

[Gunbird]

(Removed after cooling down)

[eilif]

You are misinterpreting this. Someone who wants F&F is not automatically a criminal of some sorts. Folks agree because it is the cheaper option, not because someone likes them or not. Also, manipulative? Paypal demands that you send registerd and insured else you are automatically out of your money (and your goods) when the customer/fellow forummember complains that something has not arrived (be that true or false)

For the average gamer who wants to sell some old mini's >>
Regular Paypal = Higher shipping fees because Paypal demands it = people don't buy because of the costs (unless it is a more expensive purchase.....Anything over 30 Pounds for me)
F&F = much lower shipping fees, usually half or a third of the normal Paypal option = people buy.

People vote with their money, if they can get it elsewhere cheaper they will get it there (I'm purely talking about occasionally selling off some surplus things to pay for new projects. I'm not talking about professional sellers or shops. Now that would be fraudulent) Ys, it is a risk, but I'm quite sick of it being called a criminal in advance just because I offer P&R and normal Paypal options. And I take your comment about manipulative very personal, as this is most certainly not the case.

This is the way I have been funding my hobby for years now, selling what I no longer use and 80% of the people I sell to are in the UK. And I'm not. Charging normal Dutch shipping fees would mean I would not be able to sell any of my old stuff, much too niche for most Dutch.

I wasn't aware that Paypal requires "Registered and Insured".  Is this the case throughout Europe?  If both sides understood that a deal was not feasible with Paypal fees and shipping then I suppose F&F is one way to handle it.  Forgoing expensive shipping in exchange for F&F seems like a way to work out an unworkable bad situation.

I just get a bad feeling when ads or sellers say "F&F only" or when they spring the F&F request on you after you've worked out a deal. Of course that is in the context of USA sellers where shipping with deliver confirmation is quite cheap.

I don't think anyone is calling you a criminal.

[Gunbird]

Sorry about that, bit touchy today. Not my best week.

Paypal does not require it, but if something goes wrong, and you did not use signed for/registered (I tend to include insured as well as signed for  doesn't mean a damn anymore these days) then the seller loses everything, Paypal automatically sides with the buyer.

Sellers that only accept F&F are rare, fortunately. If they are upfront about it I have less of a problem, if it is long time forum member. Anything under a couple of 100 posts and I just walk away.

[Conquistador]

Not going on the F&F third rail - who am I to restate something that there are clearly strong differences about and vastly different circumstances - but it just dawned on me that if PayPal and/or Ebay automatically settles on the buyer side, why would you take on the expense of tracking or confirmation at all? 

I use priority mail here in the USA (99% small box) for my knowing it was delivered plus it can be, I think, cheaper if a small and heavy item and comes with automatic insurance but now I wonder how "wise" this practice is if a fraudulent buyer is going to be shielded from responsibility in the most extreme cases.  Evidence be damned is disconcerting.  For small items might this be simply unwise as a seller?

My mind is about enter the Boggle Zone!

[throwsFireball]

Not going on the F&F third rail - who am I to restate something that there are clearly strong differences about and vastly different circumstances - but it just dawned on me that if PayPal and/or Ebay automatically settles on the buyer side, why would you take on the expense of tracking or confirmation at all? 

Tracked postage in the UK is automatically insured up to a certain value (signed for postage, which costs £3.40) is insured for up to £50.

[eilif]

Not going on the F&F third rail - who am I to restate something that there are clearly strong differences about and vastly different circumstances - but it just dawned on me that if PayPal and/or Ebay automatically settles on the buyer side, why would you take on the expense of tracking or confirmation at all? 

I don't know that Paypal automatically takes the buyers side.