Convincing dwarfs (or dwarves, if you prefer)

[Conquistador]

No, I understand. I just disagree.

That possesses none of the grim, dour, practical, stubbornness that I associate with dwarfs. I also don't believe it matches the comments made in the original post by Hobgoblin.

Personally I think it's an appalling cartoon rendition of a comic childish idea.

But that's only my opinion. Yours may vary.

I pretty much agree with that.  Is the berserker type dwarf figure a possible Dwarf in another setting.  Yes, change the description to a non-JRRT setting and it fits in.  I still don't like it.  To me I cannot see a unit of those figures in a steady relentless, remorseless advance across a field or an unyielding rear guard in a pass.

Tolkien Dwarf? Never.

[Conquistador]

Looking at sukhe_bator's interesting thread about EM4 dwarves, I was reminded of a thought I've harboured for a while: there's a case to be made that Nick Lund - and by extension whoever mimicked his style for the Fantasy Warriors/EM4 dwarves - is the only sculptor to create plausible Tolkien-style dwarves.

<snip>

But then Tolkien draws on Norse myth to create his dwarves [sic]. And he makes them fairly formidable fighters, as in his description of Dain's dwarf warriors in The Hobbit:

"Dain had come. He had hurried on through the night, and so had come upon them sooner than they had expected. Each one of his folk was clad in a hauberk of steel mail that hung to his knees, and his legs were covered with hose of a fine and flexible metal mesh, the secret of whose making was possessed by Dain’s people. The dwarves are exceedingly strong for their height, but most of these were strong even for dwarves. In battle they wielded heavy two-handed mattocks; but each of them had also a short broad sword at his side and a roundshield slung at his back. Their beards were forked and plaited and thrust into their belts. Their caps were of iron and they were shod with iron, and their faces were grim."

So, dwarves go from the weak creatures of folklore and legend to doughty, tough warriors. And this is continued in The Lord of the Rings through Gimli (who, nevertheless, prefers fighting the Uruk-hai to fighting humans, because the Uruks are shorter - more his size, one can reasonably infer).

And this, of course, is what's carried into RPGs and tabletop wargames: dwarves are tough and strong. Crossbows crept into the mix, somehow.

<snip>

The person who does get it right, I think, is Nick Lund, in the former Grenadier/now Mirliton range. His sculpting's not to everyone's taste, but I think his vision of dwarves works far better than most. These creatures have long arms, genuinely non-human proportions and a convincingly formidable aspect. And, while one might quibble at the size of some of the weapons, at least these dwarves look like they could actually wield a two-handed axe:


http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/?title=Battle_Lords_Box_Sets#1603

http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName=fantasy-2528mm-dwarfs

The more I look at the links, the more I agree that for JRRT Dwarf figures these seem to correctly convey the "Dwarf Factor" of the books.  I prefer the first link (I own some of these) but the second link (I believe I actually own none of these surprisingly) has much merit in the sculpts.

The word "Only" is a value judgment that I will withhold currently. 

And, yes, where the heck did crossbows come from?  Bows (of horn?) I believe they used at the Battle of Five Armies. 

Yes that description of Dain's forces is what endeared me to the early Ral Partha dwarves - Dwarf of the Anvil http://stunties.com/wiki/index.php/Wizards,_Warriors,_%26_Warlocks which I can easily see fighting Goblins/Orcs but less likely to be fighting "heroic sized" Humans.

Of course in LOTR the Dwarf forces don't fight humans in the main story line.

[Brandlin]

Conquistador - better pics of the whole nick Lund line from grenadier, now sold by mirliton. You'll see a number of non Lund sculpts have been added to the line over time (I don't think bat riders are canon for example- but even though they are impractical I love the bear riders.)

Click here for Nick Lund Dwarfs

This battle set from grenadier is the epitome of the dwarf look to me. I accept that the heads of the double hand axes are somewhat large, however they have a simple functional menace about them.



I have about 15 sets of these, augmented with others from the range to make up about 200 figures in infantry core units.


As to the crossbows, I think that's an early GW aesthetic. War hammer version 1 had dwarfs listed as using crossbow only. And then their figures followed suit. I believe it was a way to differentiate between dwarfs that were predominantly slow and solid and elf/human longbow men. Crossbows had slower rate of fire but greater punch than longbows, same ranges (from memory).

In some respects crossbows do make some sense, being mechanical, requiring that kind of smithing skill to make rather than wood working. Also you'd get more draw power from a crossbow than a smaller bow that a dwarf could manage.

The Lund sculpts have both short bows (Rangers) and crossbows. And I use both.



None of the Lund sculpts carry swords, which is a departure from tolkiens description. They are predominantly double handed axes, but include halberds, maces, hammers. There isn't a single sword in my dwarf army other than a couple of later character figures (you can see them on the mirliton page).
There are also few shields as the bulk of the infantry are armed with double handed weapons.

In practical terms, if you imagine the dwarfs fighting in tunnels and mines then a much more sensible arms and armour would be a shield and stabbing weapon such as a spear for the reach.

One of my other views on dwarfs is the round shield. I never got on with the idea of a kite or more traditional heraldic shape (sorry I don't know the term). All m dwarfs are round shieldiums - it just feels right, even though a tower or kite shield would be better defensively in a tunnel... Imagine a Roman phalanx or turtle with bristling spears ina tunnel. Very solid and defensible.

[Conquistador]

I can see shield/spear and long knife or short sword for tunnel fights as particularly effective.  Once the shield wall is broken and the "knife fight" begins in tunnels then axes/maces/hammers might be at  a disadvantage.  Open it up in a hall or room then hand axes plus clubs, maces, swords would come back into play. 

It depends a lot on whether you envision Dwarf armies fighting a lot above ground too. 

And are the Mountains forested or are the fights above the tree line? 

Do the Dwarf forces use 'stay behind' or tunnel connected 'spider holes' like the WW2 Japanese in the Pacific? 

The Vikings used round shields in shield wall (or whatever the term might be) formations on more than one occasion, and some dwarf manufacturers like to put a pseudo-Viking tone on the dwarf figures.

IIRC the dwarf armies in LOTR/Hobbit seemed to use masses of infantry with skirmisher bow armed in BoFA, not sure if it gets into detail when the Dale/Dwarf forces are mentioned standing before Erebor.

From Wikipedia  -

"... On March 17 of the year 3019 in the Third Age, Sauron sent a host of Easterlings to attack Dale.[1] The combined forces of the Men of Dale under King Brand[2] and the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain under King Dáin Ironfoot marched out to meet the Easterlings in battle. Sauron's forces were probably more numerous, though the armies of Dale and Erebor would have possessed an advantage due to their superior Dwarven-made weaponry. After three days of heavy close-quarters fighting, Brand and Dáin were forced to retreat to the Lonely Mountain. A few sturdy warriors led by Brand and Dáin fought bravely before the Gate of Erebor, which was not taken. Dáin was killed as he stood defending the body of his ally Brand. The defenders of the Mountain were now under siege.

The forces of Gondor and Rohan defeated the main power of Sauron in the southern theatre on March 25 and this caused the northern Easterling army to lose heart. Seeing the morale of their foes sapped the Army of Dale under the new Kings — Bard II and Thorin III Stonehelm — managed to lift the siege on March 27 and drove the Easterlings out of Dale..."

[Arthadan]

I've written an article about Dwarves miniatures for The Lord of the Rings to be featured in the upcoming issue of Other Minds webzine. I'm afraid I can't unveil much, but Nick Lund's are also my personal pick.

About Red Box Games', word of advice: they're tiny (similar scale to GW LOTR Dwarves). They are much smaller than Nick Lund's. The first ones were bigger (similar to Nick Lund's) and are still available from Hasslefree:



Reaper also has some interesting Dwarves:

[jthomlin]

Sgt Major Dwarves are in the same vein as discussed:

http://www.sgmm.biz/Dwarves_c_66.html

I always thought that the reason that the GW style 'butterballs' were meant to be so tough and grumpy was because their family jewels dragged along the ground! 

Cheers!
Joe Thomlinson

[Brandlin]

Sgt Major Dwarves are in the same vein as discussed:

http://www.sgmm.biz/Dwarves_c_66.html

Those sergeant major dwarfs are the old vendel dwarfs - the moulds were sold on when vendel closed its doors. They have been mentioned elsewhere in this thread in positive terms.

I always thought that the reason that the GW style 'butterballs' were meant to be so tough and grumpy was because their family jewels dragged along the ground! 

See! That's the kind of heightist and speciesist comment that dwarfs have had to put up with since the first song. And you wonder why we lock ourselves in mountains away from others and are often grumpy.

Elfs? pffft. Pixie fiddlers the lot of them!

[jthomlin]

Those sergeant major dwarfs are the old vendel dwarfs - the moulds were sold on when vendel closed its doors. They have been mentioned elsewhere in this thread in positive terms.

Sigh! Mea culpa ...

See! That's the kind of heightist and speciesist comment that dwarfs have had to put up with since the first song. And you wonder why we lock ourselves in mountains away from others and are often grumpy.

Elfs? pffft. Pixie fiddlers the lot of them!

Who said I had a thing for the flower sniffers? I'm a straight up and down monkey man, athough I don't mind a bit of scaley on the side ... 

Cheers!
Joe Thomlinson

[Brandlin]

Who said I had a thing for the flower sniffers?

  I am now changing my official anti-elf insult of choice to "Flower Sniffing Pixie Fiddlers"