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Author Topic: The price of a miniature  (Read 23530 times)

Offline Kommando_J

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The price of a miniature
« on: May 04, 2016, 11:39:44 PM »
After my last thread lamenting frostgrave minis I was on the lookout for a new project.

Having received samples from them,I thought about otherworld miniatures...but tbh despite their excellent quality the prices shocked me somewhat.

One one hand I would argue that the quality/detail warrants the prices and compared to GW prices that I was used to they are downright bargain basement (although I remember the days of £6.00 multiple metal miniature blisters).

But on the other I couldn't help but feel the prices where a bit high and the thing that really shocked me was the bizarre post system where postage went up as the prices went up, even if overall the package weight was small being made up of expensive single minis.

...But getting to the question or questions:

How much do you think is reasonable for a metal miniature?

How much is reasonable for postage?

(For both questions stores as well as ebay)





Offline Mr.J

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2016, 11:45:17 PM »
I rarely spend more than £2.50 on a human sized metal miniature. Unless it's something special or big etc. I don't like paying much more than that. Most of the time I don't have to what with GB, Curteys, Foundry and Perry being my usual suppliers.

Offline Diablo Jon

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2016, 05:52:09 AM »
It's not an easy one to answer if I really like a miniature or need it for a project and I can't find any alternative I might be prepared to break the budget at other times I'll proxy or convert to save cash. I can't really quantify it I'll look at a model or miniature and in my head the price will seem either acceptable or not.


Offline Legion1963

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2016, 06:03:34 AM »
It depends on several things. Firstly, my budget, which is always a problem :-( and secondly the miniature. Once i payed something like 15 euro (including postage) for a miniature that i had wanted for a long time. But these are rare occasions. Around 2,50 euros seems a fair price to me for a new man-sized miniature.

Offline Lovejoy

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2016, 06:06:50 AM »
Just to give a bit of a commercial perspective here...

Take the Half-orc barbarian from our last Kickstarter. She has a £4 retail price, which is well over the £2.50 most here seem to think is reasonable. But think about the numbers. Retailers get around 45% discount, so on a £4 mini, we'll receive £2.20. The cost of the miniature to us is 70p, and the blisterpack, foam and card cost 43p. So that £4 price nets us £1.07 profit. And that doesn't include the costs of shipping to the retailer.

So you may think £4 a mini is expensive, but it's often barely enough to get by on...

You can cut costs by setting up in-house casting, but you need to be shifting a lot of product for that to be cost-effective. Also, mulitipack minis help a bit, as you only need to pay the blister/foam/card costs once. But even there, if I did a blister with 3 of those Half-orcs for £7.50, after costs, I'd receive £1.63 profit, so 54p per mini sold.

It's hardly surprising so many mini ranges disappear shortly after launch.

Offline Lowtardog

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2016, 06:23:07 AM »
Its whatever you are willing to pay much like other things if you or anyone sets a bidget value in your mind thats a personal thing. I find exactly the same thing with clothes and designer labels, I can pick up a pait of plimsoles for less than £15 yet my kids buy converse for £70 plus! 😃

Offline Dags

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2016, 07:44:57 AM »


So you may think £4 a mini is expensive, but it's often barely enough to get by on...



QFT


Offline manic _miner

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2016, 07:48:47 AM »
 This is one of those hard topics to get into.

 Lovejoy does a good job of explaining the costs.He is also the sculptor for his range which saves him the cost of getting pieces done.So for others to get a miniature into production you are looking at getting sculpts done and also master and production moulds too.So before you can start to make any money you have those costs to make back.I think that is one reason small start-up businesses fail due to lack of sale to move the range/line onwards.

 There is also the difference with Historical,Sci-Fi and Fantasy pricing.But like Karl and others have mentioned you get what you pay for as with anything else.

Offline Sangennaru

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2016, 08:03:38 AM »
i honestly don't think that the customer should care much about the production-distribution costs of miniatures. I am in the same boots regarding scenery sculpting-producing, so i understand the struggle to keep the prices low, yet i think that the customer should only think if he wants to pay a price for a miniature.

In my opinion the parameters should be:
- Is this something out of the mainstream? If you're willing to have miniatures with unique looks, and a characterized style, you have to pay more.
- Is this something specific i've been looking for? Afterall, if you really want a specific miniature, and someone decided to make a limited run of those for you and a few other interested in it, it's no surprise it's gonna be more expensive.
- Am i after some superior quality? Will i spend countless hours painting those? Well, this is tricky since most of us tend to ...erm... increase their lead mountain mostly. But seriously, if you are planning to invest 10 hours into painting one miniature is the 10£ price really so important? On the other hand, if you're after miniatures for gaming, sometimes the superior quality isn't worth it.

Personally, i think that a high-quality miniature like Infinity or Red Box Game or Tales of War is well worth the 8-10£ price tag, BUT you must need this kind of product! It all depends on the customer needs, and what he's after.

For what concerns me, it's very important to have unique miniatures (so non-gw-and-such) but i'm not after something in particular; i really am after superior quality since i spend a lot of time on one miniature, but i know i won't paint all of those i buy, so i tend to limit myself.
Result: I don't go above 4-5£ per high quality miniature, and that results in buying used miniatures that had RRP around 10£ (such as RGB).

Offline zemjw

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2016, 08:37:11 AM »
Hasslefree did a breakdown of the costs of setting up for a limited resin run - link. It's over five years old now, so I imagine things have got even more expensive.

On a personal note, it does depend on the figure and if I have a use for it. I've just bought some Hasslefree figures, which came in at around £5 each, and that is getting to the top of what I consider reasonable.

However, I've started collecting some of the Imperial Assault figures, and those end up around the £10 mark for a single plastic figure. This is partly because they come with cards and other stuff, but I still take a long pause before deciding if I want it or not.

But yeah, if it's a figure that I really want, then I'll generally buy it. However, I'm finding that more and more often the prices of things are way above my impulse buy limit, so they stay on the shelf/website.

One example of that is that £70 seems to be the average Kickstarter pledge these days. This also seems to be about the average "figures with a boardgame attached" price, and it's one that is well above my comfort level. Sure, if you average out the cost of the figures it's actually pretty cheap, but the fact you have to buy the whole thing has put me off backing/buying quite a few things.

Offline Major_Gilbear

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2016, 10:39:57 AM »
Hmm, I guess there's no real blanket answer here - even if we limit ourselves to discussing human-sized 28mm scale figs... Just too many variables.

That said, some of my thoughts on the matter:

1) Material. If metal or resin, the miniatures are clearly not set up to be sold in the same volumes as plastic figures on a sprue. I would therefore expect to buy plastic figures significantly cheaper on a per-unit-basis than their metal equivalents. Yes, I know the moulds are expensive, etc, but there clearly has also been a volume-sales calculation made and as a customer I really do resent being charged high or nearly-metal prices as a result. GW are the real culprit here, I admit, but some other plastic models (Malifaux for another example) are at it too.

2) Type of model vs expected number required. I am much more likely to need lots of Zombies/Redshirts/grunts compared to champions/heroes/leaders, so pricing them all the same (i.e., at hero-level single-figure prices) is a major disincentive for me to consider a model range for more than a couple of figures. This is a relevant example for me actually, as I wanted some decent-looking Fantasy Zombies for a big WHFB unit - but I refuse to pay £4+ per figure for a 3pt model that I will need some 60 of (and that's just one unit...)! Mantic plastics were the choice in the end (cheap, and still look much better than those God-awful GW plastics), although I did manage to get about 12-15 metal zombie models for good prices before I gave up on completing the unit.

3) Game requirements. For heroes in a dungeon crawler or an RPG, I don't mind spending a bit more. This ties into (2) above, but more so because the characters are avatars of the players, and are therefore important to get "right" as far as I'm concerned. Conversely, dungeon beasties or encounter monsters may well just be one-use wonders, and I'm even happy to use card standees if their lives are short enough to not merit buying models for! Compared to an army-style game, where even though the bulk troops are many and generic, they are still on the table longer and more often.

4) Model complexity. I like models that are multipart because they are usually a bit more dynamic and tend to have better mouldlines. I draw the line at 4/5 parts though - any more and it's too fiddly to bother with unless it's some super-special-awesome character that you only need one of (and, better mouldines are outweighed at this point by too many mouldlines!). I understand that more parts = more cost (generally, although one loose arm on one model, or a separate head/backpack are not usually a noticeable difference), so adjust my expectations accordingly. I again object to paying for 1-peice models what's charged for 5-part models if the price for the 5-peice models is steep.

5) Company size. Crude, and I feel a bit awkward admitting this, but there it is. For a "bigger" company that shifts a lot of product, I feel that prices should be cheaper than those charged by one-two person companies. In other words, I accept that boutique miniatures are low overall earners for their makers and I don't mind paying a little more if it keeps them afloat (and making more models). I do expect a bit more in terms of service though (for example, asking if I can have 60 specific Zombies rather than a random mix), because that higher price also represents a more personal involvement and the ability to accommodate reasonable requests (IMO). Conversely, I don't expect a personal approach with bigger companies, and they shift enough to keep prices lower overall (which is the tradeoff for me). It's funny how this always seems to be in reverse though - big companies often charge as much or more than the boutique companies, even if the service is less individual.

6) Quality of the model/sculpt. Very subjective, I know. For me this is about proportion, pose, attention to detail, and the casting. This is not about number of skulls/straps/rivets/spikes/armour panels, nor about the model coming in one part or four. It is also not about heroic poses with "rage fist", "foot on rock", or "Prince George stance", or having a scenic base. If the model is good enough, I will buy it just to have - if the model is exceptional, it may even spawn a whole new project!

7) Project price. This ties into (3) a bit as well, but for me this is what I expect to spend overall on a given army/force/warband/gang/project. For something like Necromunda, I would expect a gang to be a dozen troopers (call it fifteen to allow for some variety, but this excludes hired guns), and a price of around £40. This price is somewhat set by what I paid for gangs of this size originally (adjusted upwards a bit for time elapsed), and recognizes that one-piece mass-produced grunts are more plentiful (and cheaper) than multipart heavies for example. It also reflects that with one or two plastic kits, I can usually kitbash a gang of this size without much difficulty. Therefore, selling models for a game of this type/size at much more than about £4 each is going to be a tough sell to me (unless the models are amazing, and even then...).
For something like Malifaux, where all the characters are unique and distinctive, I might have a similar budget for only 7-10 figures. For a WHFB regiment that I might need a few of, I'd expect to get one good-sized regiment for that £40 (which averages around 25-40 models generally). And so on. Basically, as long as the overall cost for the project is "on budget", I don't mind too much if one of the models costs three times more than another (although coming in "under budget" is always pleasing!).

I do pause at £70 boxed sets where you don't really get a proper force though (regardless of the number of miniatures they contain) - they are often not complete games or even great starters either, or they feature two factions that I might not be interested in. This means that in addition to the initial £70, I will likely need to spend considerably more in order to properly play and experience the game. Mostly, these sorts of sets seem to have been influenced by the GW method of big boxed starters, and much like the game mechanic of rolling a dozen D6 dice 3-4 times to get one result, I think it's high time some thought and market research went into these things - there are much better solutions in my opinion, which also allow costs to be kept sensible for new players and are still profitable for the manufacturers, all without introducing a torrent of SKU product codes for stores to deal with either.

Games like Space Hulk and Heroquest show very clearly that the boxed game needs to be complete, satisfying, evocative, and not too expensive. They also need to have enough complexity and/or scenarios and/or variety to keep the game interesting for replays. For many these are also the "true" gateway games that got them interested in TTG all those years ago, which proves that they got the formula for success right. I note that despite the very reasonable miniature quality and numbers, these are also primarily board games.

Recent GW games are not really aimed at new players, nor even at those starting a new faction - Calth and Overkill are merely model-selling vehicles, and not remotely "proper" games that you'd expect to buy in a highstreet store and play with friends or family. The amount of model prep and assembly required is also simply not for beginners, and the price is easily steep enough to put new people off from having a go in case they bugger it all up. The games do not offer enough engagement for long-term enjoyment either.

One thing is clear though; the big game sets out now are all very keen to tell you how many models they contain so that people can work out that each figure costs £2.50 (or whatever) and is therefore "great value" when compared to buying just the figures you want/need...

Offline Brandlin

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2016, 12:09:00 PM »
I remember being appalled when citadel raised its price per figure to 40p (Stirling) and then wasted some of that money on stupid blister packs!

On the whole I don't mind paying for quality and service. I'm aware of the need of small businesses and artists to make a living and recognise the amount of talent and effort needed to make my toys. I'm also very aware of the costs of volume and recognise that much smaller volumes are more expensive per unit.

I do object to a number of pricing practices from many companies.though. Here are a few.

1) packaging. You're charging me for cardboard plastic art work graphic design etc that I'm just going to discard

2) multiples. You decide to sell things in multiples rather than ones. I very very often don't want the same numbers you think I do. You argue multiples makes it cheaper because you don't have to package singles... I refer you to the cause of the problem in item 1

3) lack of imagination. Too many very talented people copying what others do at equal or higher prices! you want me to spend £5 on a figure? Then do something worth it, not just an oversized, charicatured knock off of what everyone else is doing.

4) fluff. I'm interested in figures. I have an imagination. I don't want to be paying more for figures because you decided you had to put a card, pamphlet, background book or British library in the blister pack. I certainly don't want several copies because I wanted three figures.

5) don't make me pay for how you run your business. I want to buy figures. I have no interest in your painting competition, the several hundred stores you keep open and the thousands of "helpful" staff. You're making me pay for those things in your product pricing and I'm not interested in them.

6) god complex. Ok, you can sculpt, you're good at it, you deserve to make a living. That doesn't mean your first four sculpts deserve a £100,000 Kickstarter and the opportunity for you holiday in the Bahamas twice a year.

Offline Brandlin

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2016, 12:14:23 PM »
Just to give a bit of a commercial perspective here...

Take the Half-orc barbarian from our last Kickstarter. She has a £4 retail price, which is well over the £2.50 most here seem to think is reasonable. But think about the numbers. Retailers get around 45% discount, so on a £4 mini, we'll receive £2.20. The cost of the miniature to us is 70p, and the blisterpack, foam and card cost 43p. So that £4 price nets us £1.07 profit. And that doesn't include the costs of shipping to the retailer.

So you may think £4 a mini is expensive, but it's often barely enough to get by on...

You can cut costs by setting up in-house casting, but you need to be shifting a lot of product for that to be cost-effective. Also, mulitipack minis help a bit, as you only need to pay the blister/foam/card costs once. But even there, if I did a blister with 3 of those Half-orcs for £7.50, after costs, I'd receive £1.63 profit, so 54p per mini sold.

It's hardly surprising so many mini ranges disappear shortly after launch.

What you're discussing here is a business model that screams for you to take out the middleman (retailer) and set up order delivery in house.

You choose the market access. You choose the packaging. If that makes your customers think the product is too expensive, then change them.

Yes as customers we will always want more for less, just as a commercial entity will want greater return. It's a balancing act.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 12:23:41 PM by Brandlin »

Offline Lovejoy

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2016, 12:36:29 PM »
What you're discussing here is a business model that screams for you to take out the middleman (retailer) and set up order delivery in house.

You choose the market access. You choose the packaging. If that makes your customers think the product is too expensive, then change them.

Yes as customers we will always want more for less, just as a commercial entity will want greater return. It's a balancing act.

That's great if you can get sufficient sales volume without going through retail. Yes, you save money as you don't have to discount, but a very large portion of the market will only buy at stores or shows. At Salute this year, we ran out of 5 popular models. We had loads of people ask for them, and we told them they could order them from the webshop, but most of them said they didn't buy anything mail order, only at shows or stores. It seemed weird to me, but I guess everyone's different.

So if you cut out stores, and really have to attend 20+ trade shows a year instead. Believe me, that's a long way from free.

The fact is, without retail stores and shows, a miniatures range has very little exposure to the customer base. Getting 100% of the sale price doesn't help if you aren't getting any sales...

Offline Brandlin

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Re: The price of a miniature
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2016, 12:42:12 PM »
That's great if you can get sufficient sales volume without going through retail. Yes, you save money as you don't have to discount, but a very large portion of the market will only buy at stores or shows. At Salute this year, we ran out of 5 popular models. We had loads of people ask for them, and we told them they could order them from the webshop, but most of them said they didn't buy anything mail order, only at shows or stores. It seemed weird to me, but I guess everyone's different.

So if you cut out stores, and really have to attend 20+ trade shows a year instead. Believe me, that's a long way from free.

The fact is, without retail stores and shows, a miniatures range has very little exposure to the customer base. Getting 100% of the sale price doesn't help if you aren't getting any sales...


I recognise it's a trade off. I am stunned if in this day and age a statistically significant portion of your customer base WONT buy on line. I don't know anyone with that view. In fact I know almost no one that buys from a bricks and mortar store.

Don't read too much into those that want to buy at a show, that can often be impulse buys. They wouldn't walk into a shop for it either the following week.

Your issue at that show was you didn't have enough stock. It's hard to predict and balance.


 

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