SP2 Alamo lists?

[axabrax]

I've seen a few threads that mentioned using the new SP2 for the Texian Revolution/the Alamo. Anyone done any legwork on creating lists or have any interest in collaborating to make some?  (I posted up on the Two Fat Lardies Yahoo group to dead silence. I thought perhaps that this had been done before by someone but I couldn't really find anything in old specials index or the file section. Perhaps I missed something?)

With the new Sharpulator available it shouldn't be too hard to cook up something, but I am a relative newbie to the period. My main frame of reference would be the Legends of the West Alamo lists.

I feel like the Texians shouldn't be too hard, but I am less confident about the Mexican army. Perhaps they have a close equivalent to one of the already published Napoleonic lists? Maybe the French? 

Cheers

Ax

[Malamute]

I would love to see lists for these. I haven't yet read the new rules, so not sure yet how ratings work and  I wish I had the time to formulate some.
Some initial thoughts:
Your closest Napoleonic troop type for the Mexicans would be the Spanish.
They will vary in troop quality with the Permente regiments being better drilled and equipped than the Activos, many of whoom were conscripted into the army to make up the numbers.
The Cazadores(light infantry) were supposed to be equipped with Baker rifles but may also have used the Brown Bess, they would be reasonable shots. The Grenados again were recruited from the better soldados and would be good.
Cavalry was well led and consisted of the Regulars and Presidial units who were used to fighting Indians and bandits along the frontier. So there would be reasonable troops. The artillery was decent enough but lacked supplies and consisted of mostly ligth guns.
The officers varied, but many were competent professional soldiers (Urrea, Castrillon for example) others not so good, (Santa Anna himself or General Coz).

The Texians are mostly militia with some basic trained units the New Orleans Greys or the Alabama Red Rovers and towards the end of the war US army deserters joined Houston's ranks. I would suggest mostly average quality though throughout. They didn't fair particularly well in most of the engagements and in my opinion they were very lucky at San Jacinto! (but thats a debate for another time!)

Hope that helps, I've put things down as the entered my head so hope it all makes sense. If you want any specific info drop me a PM. I have an extensive library on the subject as you might imagine

[axabrax]

Hey thanks for the response. I've played a few games of SP2 and came up with a list for the Continental Navy for the AWI that I think works well, so I at least know how to use the "Sharpulator."

Good point about the quality of the Texan militias. I think, being an American, I might have a tendency to overrate the quality of the Texan troops just because I want them to be "epic," so I will try to keep that in mind.  

I think I will start with the Texians' list and build it around a corps of regulars and militia (probably at a 1:2 or 1:3 groups ratio) with the other troop types available for support. Fortunately the militia units in SP2 are fairly tame so I can't get too carried away.

There are both Spanish and Portugeuse lists for the Peninsular War in the main rules, so I will start from those for the Mexican army.

Oh, and let's not forget Comanches...

Will post up my initial efforts here. Probably get around to it this weekend. Also plan on getting some more Boothill figures too once I figure out what I need.  

[Lowtardog]

Rich posted on forum little while back he had mex american lists on the go. They would be spot on, building a spanish napoleonic list at present and rules would be ideal.

Love theboothill minis aand will look to do them in the future, may be opportunity to do base force deals too Nick😂

 

[Malamute]

Love theboothill minis aand will look to do them in the future, may be opportunity to do base force deals too Nick😂

 

Always happy to do deals for large orders.

[Lowtardog]

Tease, I nearly did but everyone at the club did napoleonic with that horrid placcy gear. I am working on them though 😃

[axabrax]

Hey guys,

Did some more research and took a stab at writing up a baseline Sharp Practice 2 list for the Texan side of the Texian Revolution. I've posted it up on Google drive in a pdf for perusal:

SP2 Texian Revolution list pdf

Haven't pointed-out the support options yet as this list is just a brainstorm. Any and all feedback is welcome as I am no subject matter expert and the list hasn't been play-tested.

A few notes:

Tried to keep the unruly conscripts and volunteers army feel for the list while providing enough variety and troop options to make it interesting and to allow some figure variety. The "regulars" in the base list (who are actually volunteers, not regulars) could be any slightly better trained troops so you could define them as militia or regs or whatever.

The only actual "regular" troops are the Army Deserters/New Orleans Greys, which may be overstating their training but allows for there to be one "regular" optional unit choice in the army. I went with the literature that says the Greys were probably armed with rifles.

Old State Volunteers come in both State Line and Skirmisher flavors depending on their assigned battlefield role.

For the heck of it, I went with Shotguns and mixed weapons for the Texan Cavalry and did them as Dragoons presuming that at least some of them would be in line with Travis's notions of cavalry. Really what this means is that they have an eclectic mix of weapons but there are enough shotguns to let half of them use the shotgun stat-line.  It also greatly reduces their effectiveness as dismounted troops.

I figure I will wait for The Lardies' Mex American War list for the Mexican Army and use the Napoleonic Spanish in the interim maybe with the addition of some cavalry. Presumably the US Army list for the Mexican War won't be much use at all for a ragtag group like the Texian army...

Cheers

Steve

[sjwalker51]

Hi Steve

Sorry I missed your earlier yahoo post: things tend to get missed amongst the hundreds of posts there. You might want to consider posting about this on the TFL Forum where I'm sure you'll get a better response.

Like you, this is one of several SP2 projects that's very tempting (especially after Malmute's generous offer) - it's not a period I know much about so not really qualified to comment on your troop ratings but they look consistent.

One suggestion re shotguns: make them +1 to hit at close range only, and at long range, treat the target as being in one level of cover better than they are in (or, maybe better, ignore the first Kill at long range) to reflect the decline in stopping power.

[axabrax]

Hey. Like your ideas for the shotguns! I will roll those into the list and possibly try posting it to the TFL Yahoo group.

[sjwalker51]

I'd post them to the TFL Forum instead - more likely to be spotted by Richard, and get a reaction from others.

Again showing my ignorance of the period, which of these troop types would be most appropriate for Crockett's Kentuckians? I assumed the Frontiersmen but they're armed with muskets?

Simon

[axabrax]

Honestly, from what I've read, the Texian "Army" is so eclectic and showed up at different battles in so many incarnations that you could probably get away with "skinning" a number of these units in different ways. I had imagined that the "Old State" volunteers would serve for just about any of the imported state units from the Red Rovers to the Tennesseans, and they can be deployed as line or skirmishers. I don't see any reason, however, that if deployed in a more irregular role the Tennesseans couldn't comprise the Frontiersman unit as well.

Thanks for the advice!

~ Steve

[sjwalker51]

Doh!

Tennessee, not Kentucky, of course. I was thinking about Long Rifles for another list while typing.

While I agree with you, I think many newcomers to the rules would appreciate a definitive 'official' troop type for the most readily identifiable units, like Crockett's men, New Orleans Greys etc, even if they then fiddle around with them later.

And I'd be tempted to include some stats for Presidial Troopers and Vaqueros for Zorro-inspired games when you come to do the Mexicans.

[axabrax]

Yes, the Mexican forces are definitely missing.

In terms of doing Tennesseans, I think the only thing that makes them different than the other rifle-armed state volunteers is Crockett    I'm not sure I see evidence for much else. I mean the Rovers had cool uniforms, but I don't see anything stat-wise to make them different. My approach would probably be to give Crockett a write up as a Big Man and say he could only be taken with a unit of the State Volunteers.

I do have the Greys as a separate unit rated as regulars, but, honestly, even that's debatable.  The problem is that the Texian army, once again so far as I can fathom it, was largely composed of poorly trained volunteers, mostly un-uniformed, with mixed weapons. It's sort of hard to regiment that into a list with sharply delineated units.

The other problem is that there aren't really that many stat delineators in SP2. There are a dozen or less attributes and a few weapons to choose from. I like the idea of statting-out the shotgun, but I am reluctant to add new "abilities." 

Anyway, this is largely a philosophical issue, and I'm trying to strike a balance between unit variety and the facts. Let me try to whip up another draft and I'll post it to the TFL forum and we'll see if any of the game designers have an opinion...

[Malamute]

 The problem is that the Texian army, once again so far as I can fathom it, was largely composed of poorly trained volunteers, mostly un-uniformed, with mixed weapons. It's sort of hard to regiment that into a list with sharply delineated units.

Spot on.

Don't forget Juan Seguins Tejano volunteers. They were capable horsemen/Vaqueros and would be above average quality.

As to Crockett's  long rifle armed Tennesseans. Idhave to check my books for the numbers (about 12?) but I doubt they all came with him from Tennessee.  I believe a fair few of them joined him along the way after he left New Orleans.  I also very much doubt they were all armed with long rifles.

 I know they're iconic, largely thanks to John Wayne and it's hard to separate the myth from reality.  

The Greys were probably the most seasoned troops having seen fighting from October 1835 at the start of the war right through to the Alamo and I  believe one surviving unit of Greys was at San Jacinto. But they probably weren't drilled like regulars.

The Rovers didn't do much but looked good.

There are also lesser known units like the Kentucky Mustangs, but they were in reality just groups of men who volunteered together some more fortunate in being privately equipped like the Greys or Rovers.

Presidiales should definitely be included as they were present in Santa Annas force. Having been deployed along the borders policing and fighting Indians for years they would be above average quality.