Westeros, Westeros. (even more) Ideas needed...

[jim rae]

Since joining this site, i've been greatly inspired by the ideas about modeling and gaming GoT. Every episode now, i've been looking for inspiration (the nuddy ladies apart) and it seems to be coming thick and fast.

I'm now trying to tie down some concrete ideas to produce a few Units beginning with the Stark-Allied houses. I've also had some thoughts on (currently) un-aligned units such as the Dothraki.

So, beginning with House Stark's Allies, what kind of period of tropos am I looking at? 13th Cent. infantry?

All ideas welcome!! 

[Dilettante Gamer]

So, beginning with House Stark's Allies, what kind of period of tropos am I looking at? 13th Cent. infantry?

All ideas welcome!! 

Welcome to the party, jim rae!

First, it's whatever YOU want it to be. That's the fun of it.  To my imagination, there is a hierarchy of styles and armor corresponding to what I believe about the relative wealth and sophistication of the great houses.  It runs, roughly, like this:

The wealthiest - Lannister and Tyrell (maybe Targaryen) - are late medieveal with Lannister more towards gothic plate and Tyrell more Italian Renaissance

The Middle - Tully, Baratheon and maybe Arryn -  Mid-to-late Hundred Years War

Bottom - Stark (Early HYW to Barons' War) Greyjoy (Normans to Barons' War) Martell Reconquista Spain with some Moorish flair.

I also mix in styles across these to reflect diversity of wealth within any retinue. As well as kitbash models to make them less recognizably historical - where possible. (Captain Blood does this best.)

Me, I'm not much interested in the Wall or Essos at present. I'll leave that to others.

[sukhe_bator]

Wot DG said... we are of like mind in our visualisation of Westeros, but that doesn't mean another concept isn't as valid. That is the joy and freedom of fantasy after all...

Undeniably, the richest will have the best and most modern kit, right down to pointy sticks and not much else at the bottom end of the scale. Given the rich seam of available figures out there it seems only fitting to demonstrate regional differences with different armour styles.
In the politics and powerplay etc GRRM draws from the WOTR period, but his florid references to 'halfhelms' and helms' and use of mail and shields suggests a looser more Hollywood-based pseudo medieval look where anything from around 1200-1400 goes...
If you want to stay true to the books, this extends to the far extreme of the Thenn having a bronze age culture, with little good steel available beyond the wall save what can be plundered from raids or looted from Night's Watch. Purists therefore tend to rail at the series depiction of them with ferocious steel axes. The only thing the series has got right is their bloodymindedness and their reputation among the rest of the Free Folk.
If you want to stay true to historical medieval parallels, militia will have little in the way of armour, and have cheap weapons like spears or pikes. They will be stiffened by better equipped veterans, and household troops. Foresters etc. will probably have self bows and make good scouts and skirmishers. Unit leaders and commanders will have better kit, with varying quality armour and helmets... DG and I decided to confine crossbows to special units among the richer houses so for my part they only appear in the Riverlands and further south. Plus they tend to be temperamental in cold/wet climates.

If you want to stay true to the conceptual work of the series, then others on the forum have done a fine job of realising this, but the degree of customisation required shows how off-historical the conceptual designers have strayed...

[Hupp n at em]

I think it's all about getting the "feel" right, hitting on the general characterization of the Houses/factions that George describes in the books.  As others have said, what that means specifically is up to you.

For example, I personally reject the idea that the North is some all-furs and chainmail primitive place, or that the Greyjoys are a definite match for Vikings and don't ever wear any plate or more modern armor at all.  Outside of the Wildlings (and even they do some trading, just not on a scale to get much in the way of better arms and armor), all of Westeros is engaged in a lot of trade.  While places will still have budgetary differences and thus equip themselves only as much as they can afford, it makes little sense to me that Robb Stark would have the mail hauberk of a middling Norman knight while a middle-of-the-pack Vale house knight will be fully clad in plate armor.

That being said, I think the general rule of "simpler" and yes, some furs and mail is important to nail the "feel" of the North. Likewise, plate and more complex armors are good to hit on the flavor of the southern houses.  I quite like DG/sukhe's general guidelines and they are roughly equivalent to what I will be following, myself.

[dbsubashi]

I also go with the "Southerners" having better arms and armor. I am using WotR figures for my Lannisters and future Tyrells. But the North is not that far behind. I will be using Perry HYW for them. Heck, the Manderly's are one of the richest families in Westeros. Their knights would have topnotch armor and gear! If I could only find a Sydney Greenstreet figure in full plate! Heck, just adding fur capes and more quilted armor may be enough to mark them out as Northerners, it's cold up there! Just a note if you are thinking about using Fireforge minis, the Templars have mantles on the their cloaks and the Tuetonics have fur trim on their cloaks.

As for actual Houses/allies, look to to the Karstarks, Umbers, Hornwoods and such. Some great color schemes and heraldry to do there. Note to self, Hornwood lord on Pulp figures moose-back...

[tomrommel1]

Welcome to the party! I can't say much more as the others already said. For me the world of Westeros is a place were anything medieval goes so to say. So combine as you see fit and remember the different climates we have in Westeros when thinking about someone from the north ( Furs because it is cold) or the south(more arabic grab at least for me).
Anything goes !! Why not using greek hoplite figures for the unsullied for example.

[jim rae]

My problem is probably that of many others. I've seen the series but also read all the books. Therefore, (at least to me) there's a kind of preconception about the major houses. This is somewhat affected with the (superb) visualization in the TV series.

I agree very much with the comment of Hupp n at em, regarding Greyjoy - my thoughts are those of much later Dark Ages possibly going into 12th/13th century?

Now, Wildlings would be kind of fun to do - I love the designs done in the series which is almost modern urban camo...

Martell, is, IMO, one of the more attractive options....  

[Ogrob]

The kitbashing is the big attraction to me. Historical plastics are so cheap that it's very doable to just buyt some different kits and have a go. I do think the Perry Agincourt boxes must be the best starting point available right now that (having not used any of those yet myself....).

[sukhe_bator]

Now, Wildlings would be kind of fun to do - I love the designs done in the series which is almost modern urban camo...

That's just snow!

[jim rae]

 :)to me. Historical plastics are so cheap that it's very doable to just buyt some different kits and have a go. I do think the Perry Agincourt boxes must be the best starting point available right now that (having not used any of those yet myself....).

I haven't used the French Agincourt sets yet, but i'm working my way through the English boxes of both Agincourt and 100YW they really ARE the best out there. I've also done some of the Gripping Beast  Dark Ages sets which are a great source of weapons and chainmail figures.

[dbsubashi]

After I made the silly decision to make all the Houses, I wanted to differentiate them stylistically. Fortunately, the mass of plastics out there is the great enabler. Rich houses? WotR by Perrys. Other Houses? Perry HYW, FireForge and Conquest with Frostgrave thrown in. Dorne? Gripping Beast Arabs with FireForge sergeants for the "stony" Dorne. I picked up a bunch of Warlord Celtic sprues durin their sprue sale at Christmas for hill tribesmen, along with hoplites and Spartans for Unsullied, and 3 scorpions for my Dorne (these may get cannibalized for the ships I just ordered) FireForge Mongols will form my Dothraki when I get there, and a bloody mix of everything for the Free Cities. (I really want to paint up some Braavosi ships with purple sails!) I know some of these choices may seem odd to some, or not quite canon, but they will look great on the table. The Rule of Cool says do it.

Another way of looking at the choices is through the spectrum of "perception". Matthew Parkes, in his painting articles in Wargames Illustrated (they have been collected, you can buy a copy now or download it from the site or on your tablet, I'll wait, it is a stonking collection, and only $10!) pointed out that wood grain would not be perceptable on 28mm models. He paints in the grain however, because the grain tells our brains "that is wood". The show does the same thing, separating houses stylistically so they are easy to differentuate. While Dorne may not be "Arabs", using those models tells our brains "southern warriors from a hot, dry climate". Throw in a distinct look for a change of painting techniques, and they do it for me.

[Hupp n at em]

After I made the silly decision to make all the Houses, I wanted to differentiate them stylistically. Fortunately, the mass of plastics out there is the great enabler. Rich houses? WotR by Perrys. Other Houses? Perry HYW, FireForge and Conquest with Frostgrave thrown in. Dorne? Gripping Beast Arabs with FireForge sergeants for the "stony" Dorne. I picked up a bunch of Warlord Celtic sprues durin their sprue sale at Christmas for hill tribesmen, along with hoplites and Spartans for Unsullied, and 3 scorpions for my Dorne (these may get cannibalized for the ships I just ordered) FireForge Mongols will form my Dothraki when I get there, and a bloody mix of everything for the Free Cities. (I really want to paint up some Braavosi ships with purple sails!) I know some of these choices may seem odd to some, or not quite canon, but they will look great on the table. The Rule of Cool says do it.

Another way of looking at the choices is through the spectrum of "perception". Matthew Parkes, in his painting articles in Wargames Illustrated (they have been collected, you can buy a copy now or download it from the site or on your tablet, I'll wait, it is a stonking collection, and only $10!) pointed out that wood grain would not be perceptable on 28mm models. He paints in the grain however, because the grain tells our brains "that is wood". The show does the same thing, separating houses stylistically so they are easy to differentuate. While Dorne may not be "Arabs", using those models tells our brains "southern warriors from a hot, dry climate". Throw in a distinct look for a change of painting techniques, and they do it for me.

Yeah, I occasionally get annoyed at some of the silly costuming choices on the show, but they are only silly if I'm looking at them as actual medieval combatants.  Their real job is to differentiate and communicate allegiance and identity to the average show viewer, as well as subconsciously aid the characterization of these different groups. In that respect, I think they are quite effective.

Also, sorry to sidetrack, I'm curious how the Conquest figures match up with the other plastics. Are you mainly using their archer set, or the mailed Normans as well?

[jim rae]

Also, sorry to sidetrack, I'm curious how the Conquest figures match up with the other plastics

I have the Conquest archers built, undercoated but not painted yet. IMO, they good, but a little too richly dressed for what I wanted (I needed suitable archers for Saxons). That aside, they're nicely proportioned and as a useful bonus, come with a choice of composite or longbows.  

Quality is excellent - build very nicely

[Hupp n at em]

I have the Conquest archers built, undercoated but not painted yet. IMO, they good, but a little too richly dressed for what I wanted (I needed suitable archers for Saxons). That aside, they're nicely proportioned and as a useful bonus, come with a choice of composite or longbows.  

Quality is excellent - build very nicely

Hmm the composite bow option is actually quite attractive, as I plan on kitbashing my plastics for Frostgrave to have more of an Asian feel. Thanks!

[Charlie_]

I go against what most people here seem to be doing, and I DON'T use different styles of armour and such to differentiate houses and wargear. I guess its because at heart I am more interested in historical wargaming than fantasy wargaming.
I don't like the idea that every house consists of a lord and an army of clones in identical armour. And the idea that every house has a distinctive style of armour to mark it out. This is of course how TV shows do things, and I completely understand the reasons.
But what appeals to me much more is the idea of Westeros consisting of a huge number of houses great and small, which in times of conflict are banded together under certain 'great houses'. And it's not cut-and-dry. A certain knight may be sworn to one noble house, who in turn is sworn to the Baratheons. But he is married to a Frey, and obviously has close ties to that house and the Riverlands.... And perhaps his mother was Hightower, so he has family in The Reach.... When Lord Baratheon goes to war, what does he do? Where are his loyalties?
The books really do this well. An army doesn't consist of mindless clones... It consists of individual knights and lords with their retinues, all of whom have family ties through blood and marriage across Westeros.

I can just see it now.... Ser Boris of Three Trees has decked himself out in his latest armour, proudly wearing his heraldry on his surcoat and shield, and goes to join the army of his lord Roose Bolton. But he is then told to take all that kit off and put on this silly uniform. Lord Bolton thinks it will make them look really menacing and evil. Aren't these newly desgined helmets awesome? Who cares how practical they are, no other house uses these new helmets! No arguing back, he's gotta wear the new uniform! Lord Bolton doesn't care who he is. He is now a Bolton soldier, not Ser Boris of Three Trees. Poor Ser Boris.....

Anyway, I like to think of all of Westeros having the same level of arms and armour technology. For me, I love the 15th century, so that is the 'era' I have gone for - mid to late 15th century... Full plate armour, longswords, poleaxes, pikes, etc....
It's true poorer regions (Iron Islands, Three Sisters, certain areas in the North) might not have access to or funds for the latest fashionable kit, and might have a more rag-tag appearance with older armour pieced together. Though I am against the idea that the whole North is backward compared to the south. As someone else already pointed out, what about White Harbour?
Now admittedly I feel the 14th century would be a better fit for the how things are portrayed in the books. There is a lot of talk of shields, and both plate and mail armour. I think the era of Crecy and Poitiers would really be perfect.... I wish the Perrys would make an extensive plastic range for that era!
But I like the 15th century best, so that is what I've gone for (helped by the brilliant and extensive Perry Miniatures 15th century range). Notably my Westeros armies have no shields. And my knights are more likely to wield poleaxes rather than swords.

To mark different houses, I rely on banners. So infantry from one house look much the same as infantry from another house... it's the flags above them that mark out their allegiance. A good thing about this is I don't have to paint up a whole new army for every house, just a few new flags!




Well, that's another option for you if you like the historical elements of this great fantasy series