What is the appeal of Frostgrave

[elysium64]

Today I played my first few games of Frostgrave, I had several warband that I had started painting and was really looking forward to it. But I hated it, I felt it had no tactical depth, gameplay is completely ruled by the dice rolling,  and the experience/treasure gathering in campaign mode is completely unbalanced ( I could have gathered more treasure than my opponent but at the end could still be wrse off than tem because of poor dice rolling). I felt that I might as well have been playing Snakes and Ladders for all the investment in the game that I had.
Obviously it is a very popular game, so what am I missing?

[zellak]

Surrender to the Chaos.   

[Timeshadow]

I would say you are thinking a bit too tactical. Frostgrave is to me very story/character driven. I've written a bunch of fun little short stories about what my warband has done and have had a blast win or loose. Yes with the d20 things can go downhill very fast but in the nest turn you could roll a pair of 20's and destroy the opponent. It's all for fun. I am very tactical and I like to plan what I want to do next but it's fun to end up going in an entirely different direction due to a few odd rolls.

[Sir_Theo]

I agree wih Time shadow,  I love the idea behind it and the narratives I could create putting together warbands. Yes the games can be very swingy wih the D20 but that throws up little moments that can be both Epic or laugh out loud. I also like how the D20 mechanic harks back to old school RPGs and that also gives me a large dose of nostalgia.

It definitely seems to be a Marmite game and I know others who really don't get on wih I at all, but those who enjoy it seem to love it. For me it's the antithesis of the sort if competative 'balanced' (their words) school of gaming that I don't enjoy  (and was the reason I left the tepid spawning pool of GW games where I began as a gamer and struck out into the open sea of gaming opportunities in the first place)

There are definitely tactical decisions to make, partixularly in your use of spells and placement of missile troops, but it can certainly turn on the rol of a dice.

[Coenus Scaldingus]

Tactical depth of the game depends a lot on the spells I think. If both sides are just blasting each other off the table or use relatively straightforward spells (enchant weapon, fleet feet), it's a very different game than when entirely different magic is used - so many fun things you can do with a well-placed Imp; positioning a lot more important when facing Push, everything so much more uncertain with Transpose or Mind Control. Depends on scenarios too - we had some nice situation in the Living Museum, where picking up that one treasure could potentially activate statue X that was closest to the already activated enemy wizard, but could also mean statue Y became aggressive, which would likely have cost me a treasure (and the person carrying it). While it may not appear in some games, others are surprisingly tactical, with good positioning, group activations and order of activations. D20's may do all kinds of weird stuff, but if you have a +10 in a fight somewhere, odds are just as much in your favour as they would be in many other games, but where rolling a bunch of 1s and 2s will nonetheless be your undoing. But of course, Frostgrave will simply not appeal to everyone. Random factors can have a large influence, and important characters can die on the single roll of a, well, die.

[Like_Clockwork]

If you don't enjoy the game, that is perfectly fine. Not every game is for everyone. However, there is one thing I must disagree with you on. You say it lacks tactical depth? All I have to say to that is, you must expand your mind as a tactician. You only played a few games, meaning you likely started at a very low level. Low level wizards don't cast spells very well. You cannot depend on the rolls, and you cannot BASE your strategy on spells. However, I recommend if you want to continue the game, utilize the spell "Write Scroll". It gives you an expendable item that guarantees you cast the spell inscribed on it. There are many ways to overcome the "luck" factor.

Unfortunately, the game isn't for everyone, and that is fine. I can tell what kind of tactician you are, I'm guessing you are fantastic at chess and the like. But I really think if you are going to insult the lacktherof tactical depth in this game, I must criticize your narrow minded view of strategy.


I am sorry that you do not enjoy the game, have yourself a good day.

Thank you,
LC

[Darkson71]

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=82859.0

[punkrabbitt]

Frostgrave has an appeal for more reasons than the just the gameplay. It s very customizeable, in that you can do just about anything for a warband; I have a warband in which the wizard and apprentice are stone giants, while all the soldiers are orcs. I have a set of warbands based on Glorantha, and am working on scenery for Pavis/Big Rubble. My wife and I play with an egyptian theme, Ice Toad encounters are represented by crocodiles.

The game is easy to learn and easy to play. There is no special combo of units and abilities that can guarantee winning like in so many other games. There is enough variety in troops and abilities to suit a variety of play styles. There is a very low investment in number of models required, and frequently can be played with a random handful of models you already have.

With all of that said, the game just isn't for everyone. And f it isn't for you, there is a game somewhere that is. And I wish you the best of luck in finding it!

[Like_Clockwork]

The game is easy to learn and easy to play. There is no special combo of units and abilities that can guarantee winning like in so many other games. There is enough variety in troops and abilities to suit a variety of play styles. There is a very low investment in number of models required, and frequently can be played with a random handful of models you already have.

That being sad, I never liked games that have the BEST combo or the BEST setup. It is varied in a way that can appeal to any type of player. To me, finding that exploit, and creating the perfect, unbeatable combo, is not strategy, nor is it realistic. True tactical ability is not in your ability to set up your team, but the ability to properly apply your war band against the situation. To me an expert Chess player is a better tactician than an expert Yugioh player.

Thank you,
LC

[elysium64]

I am no great tactician, i can asure you
I did roll particularly badly and was on the sticky end of several critical hits. Also the scenario we played was silent tower which does kind of restrict magical use.
But I guess the game is not for me, even though I game for the stories that are told, I felt for me Frostgrave required too many home rules to make it work.

[JohnDSD2]

I'd say give it another go. It might need to grow on you.
I think the comment about 'join the chaos' is a good one, yes a better soldier has a better chance but remember anything can happen, don't rely on winning that combat with your Treasure Hunter just because he has +4, by all means give him the best advantage by casting strength on him and buying him a +2 weapon but don't be upset when a lucky shot from an archer brings him to near death. Just accept it and rejoice when your lowly Thug luckily sees off a Demon even though he is carrying treasure.
So do try again and see your Warband improve, once those spells get easier to cast then some tactics can come into as they get reliable.

As for house rules my group has been playing pretty much as book, we don't play criticals, its viscious enough without that and we do give experience for out of game spells.

Having said all that it just might not be for you.

[jp1885]

To each their own. If you feel the game isn't for you (fair enough) then please put your warbands up for sale at ridiculously low prices for us to snap up

However if you fancy giving it another go, consider this:- Frostgrave is a game about rival wizards competing for magical powers that they can barely control. Spells often fail, random monsters turn up at the most inopportune moments (and, in my last game, head directly for my wizard) and lowly thugs always have a chance against the toughest knight. Yes, embrace the chaos indeed...

And if you roll poorly on the treasure table, well this stuff has been left frozen for a millennia - it's like a great big lucky dip. Better luck next time!

We play the rules as written - no house mods - and have a blast each time.

There is scope for tactics, despite the d20-ness of the dice results. The best tactic is to plan for what happens when your spell fails, as well as when it succeeds!

[Dranask]

The best tactic is to plan for what happens when your spell fails, as well as when it succeeds!

This should apply to all wargames. It always surprises me that people don't and I'm not saying, elysium64 that you are one of those. The dice are always the master.

To offset this, like chess, I try to have more than one figure covering an area. An example the other day when I wizard popped up in front of mine, missed me but then dies after taking attacks from a spell and three arrows, poor rolling allowed him to survive until the final crit 2o Arrow.

[robh]

....I felt for me Frostgrave required too many home rules to make it work.....

This sums up our groups feelings exactly. After several disappointing game sessions (of multiple games) it became clear that the faults we perceived were being fixed by house rules aiming to make the game more like Mordheim, so much so that in the end we decided that we were better off just continuing to play Mordheim.

Each to their own obviously, but you are not alone in failing to find the appeal in Frostgrave.

[Philhelm]

Frostgrave filled a void after Games Workshop destroyed the Warhammer Fantasy setting.  In addition, I have a lot less time to model armies of miniatures, so a small skirmish game is more suitable for my needs.  For some reason, this game also seems to have a nostalgia factor and is a return to generic fantasy for me after Warhammer, Game of Thrones, and to a lesser extent, D&D.  I also really like the plastic kits they have released, and I like the Soldier kit even more than the Mordheim one, since the Soldier kit has a more generic fantasy aesthetic.

As for the game itself, the others are correct about the swingy dice rolls.  The more elite soldiers can die almost as easily as everyone else, but nonetheless have a slight advantage.  The good thing about this is that a single model can't reliably dominate the battle.  The real strategic elements come from unit positioning and spell use/selection, rather than actual warband builds.