Big battle fantasy rules - advice wanted

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

While I am very happy with Dragon Rampant for skirmish level games I can't help but think about playing large battle fantasy games - for Middle Earth. 
What I want is something that is easy to play solo, has plenty of command decisions but not too complex. 
For this subject the basic mechanics should be mainly those of historical gaming with some magic, able to field a few monsters, and allow for the odd hero.  I am not particularly keen on card driven games or buckets of dice but these are not necessarily out of the question if the game flows well.

Not having game fantasy before, other than DR, I have no real ideas.
I have tried to read about:
Kings of War
Legions of Battle
Hordes of the Things
Armies of Arcana
Rally Round the King.

Modify historical rules??
Hail Caesar?
L' Art de la Guerre?
To the Strongest?

[Moshes]

IMHO the DBA/HOTT is the best once you scaled up them. Big Battle DBA is not that big, though, but has all the elements of C&C of an all out battle. If you want a really big battle, you can also multiply the elements of your army by groups of 6 to 12 bases just adding PIP dice to it. I recommend to use at least four commands for each side, Vanguard, Rearguard, Right and Left Flanks, as you see suitable. For the solo rules, there is a very good AI simulator in the Fanaticus web.

Hope you find it useful.

[Vermis]

While I am very happy with Dragon Rampant for skirmish level games I can't help but think about playing large battle fantasy games - for Middle Earth.  
What I want is something that is easy to play solo, has plenty of command decisions but not too complex.  
For this subject the basic mechanics should be mainly those of historical gaming with some magic, able to field a few monsters, and allow for the odd hero.  I am not particularly keen on card driven games or buckets of dice but these are not necessarily out of the question if the game flows well.

I'll always rave about Mayhem. Can't say much about how it plays solo, but in my opinion it fits your other requirements. In particular, no cards, and no buckets of dice - you'd need to get a couple of sets of roleplaying polydice, but rarely use more than one or two, maybe three, per roll?

Also, the author (Brent Spivey) has some downloadable army lists up at his website (Bombshell Games), but the book is centred around building your army and unit stats from the ground up. Useful for sorting that problem Hobgoblin usually cites - uruk-hai as fast-moving bow-armed heavy infantry, etc. Also for fear-causing elves, if needs be.

Descriptions, discussions, and a wee batrep here:

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=89889.0

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=86858.0

[jamesmanto]

What's wrong with more Dragon Rampant?
Each DR warband/retinue just becomes a division of the army.
Dice for the order each division activates in and then proceed as normal

[Hybrid Alpha]

I like Kings of War, but I find when played solo it is very predictable and ultimately unsatisfying.

My choice for solo play would be Warmaster or a modified Warmaster Ancients or Hail Caesar. The order rolls make these games unpredictable enough that you're never quite sure if your plans will work. The Warmaster rules can be downloaded from Rick's website.

http://www.ricks-warmaster.com/ricks_updates-variants.htm

If I had to choose just one of them I would probably go with Hail Caesar. There are a load of fantasy army lists for it here

http://adyswargamesden.com/

Good luck finding the rules that work for you.

[Hobby Services]

Still a fan of Armies of Arcana in this role, but I do like quite a lot of medium-to-huge monsters on the table in fantasy mass battles and the design-your-own rules for it are a big selling point for me.

Seems like Warmaster (fantasy or historical) belongs on the "to be considered" list as well.  It's got a lot of similarities to the Cold War/Future War/etc Commander games, if you want an easy comparison.

[m4jumbo]

You could take a look at the re released Chaos Wars rules by Ral Partha/Iron Wind Metals.

Free to download here:

http://www.ralpartha.com/index.php/chaos-wars/48-free-download-chaos-wars-classic-rules

There are several similar concepts between Chaos Wars and Dragon Rampant which you have already played.  I thought I saw a comment by Dan Mersey somewhere that the Ral Partha rules were one of the sets of rules that provided some inspiration for Lion Rampant/Dragon Rampant.

[skink]

I`d also go with Mayhem. Simple but strategically deep rules, and you can customize your own units. Only downside would be that you need a couple dice from D4 to D12.

[Lowtardog]

What's wrong with more Dragon Rampant?
Each DR warband/retinue just becomes a division of the army.
Dice for the order each division activates in and then proceed as normal

Thats the way I would go too

An alternative is god of battles for me an underated set of rules.

Warmaster hkwever would fit the bill ideally, from that they created historical rules which were good

[squeaky]

An alternative is god of battles for me an underated set of rules.

I was hoping for big things from God of Battles - but they seemed to be aimed at the big skirmish type of game (which Warhammer was), rather than a true element based mass battle game.  What do you think Lowtar?

Mayhem are a fine ruleset, deserves more play I think

[Lowtardog]

I was hoping for big things from God of Battles - but they seemed to be aimed at the big skirmish type of game (which Warhammer was), rather than a true element based mass battle game.  What do you think Lowtar?

Mayhem are a fine ruleset, deserves more play I think

Aye you are right but think you could go large with them, not played mayhem will take a shufty

[Hobgoblin]

I'd second Moshes on HOTT and Vermis et al on Mayhem. They're similar games in some ways (many of the best fantasy games - Mayhem, SBH, DR - seem to carry some of the DNA of HOTT within them).

Mayhem is much more detailed and, as Vermis says, it's great for tailoring unit exactly to your specifications. If you weren't too worried about by-the-book point match-ups, you could easily do some additional Middle Earth tinkering: all Man or Elf-sized units who fight in shieldwalls get an additional 'counter' against all Orcish units except half-orcs - that sort of thing. Only dragons and giants have set profiles, and the dragons are pretty Tolkienesque in their power. It has but two disadvantages: first, some of the weapon profiles are a bit dippy: very RPG and not historically grounded . So swords give a benefit against infantry, rather than being a side-arm for use when your main weapon is lost. And blunt weapons ignore armour. In that respect, it's the opposite of DR, which assumes a historical grounding (most infantry carry spears, etc). But this is a very minor problem: the "great weapon" and "spear" categories are pretty much OK, so you can ignore sword (or - generically - use it for knightly weapons like poleaxes, which were especially effective against most types of infantry) and only give "blunt" to the hill trolls of Gorgoroth and similar outsize nasties. The second problem is that it takes a bit of work to set up a game; it's got a much longer "time to table" than DR. But for Middle Earth gaming, you'd just need to draw up some troop lists. And that would be a huge amount of fun, I think. There's ample room to make your Isengarder uruks slightly distinct from your Mordor ones (if you think they should be), or to distinguish your Noldor from your Sindar and so on.

In that respect, HOTT is just the opposite. Its troop types are broad - and are very similar to those in DR. I have always thought of DR's elite foot as "blades" and of bellicose foot as "warbands". As you're using three or four figures to represent hundreds or thousands of troops, minor differences become irrelevant. The Uruk-hai would be "warband" in HOTT, and their archery would just be assumed to happen at close range ("shooters" in HOTT are very powerful specialists: good for Middle-Earth Elves). But it's a brilliant game, and its "time to table" is even less than DR: 24 points; most units cost 2, with heroes and wizards 4, dragons and gods (balrogs? other Maiar?) 6 and hordes 1. Half of your army must be 2- or 1-point troops, so it will consist of between 24 (all hordes) and 8 (two dragons or gods plus 6 standard units) elements of 1-6 figures (usually 3, in practice).

I'd get both. If you're using existing figures with sabots or whatever, then you can switch between them easily enough. Mayhem has square bases and HOTT differing depths depending on unit type, but those aren't critical. They share the same recommended frontage at 28mm (60mm), but both scale fine frontage-wise.

Mayhem would be excellent for playing the Pelennor Fields or the Fall of Gondolin (it has siege rules). But I can't think of a better game for the Battle of the Five Armies than HOTT.

[ZeroTwentythree]

I like Kings of War, but I find when played solo it is very predictable and ultimately unsatisfying.

My choice for solo play would be Warmaster or a modified Warmaster Ancients or Hail Caesar. The order rolls make these games unpredictable enough that you're never quite sure if your plans will work. The Warmaster rules can be downloaded from Rick's website.

http://www.ricks-warmaster.com/ricks_updates-variants.htm

If I had to choose just one of them I would probably go with Hail Caesar. There are a load of fantasy army lists for it here

http://adyswargamesden.com/

Good luck finding the rules that work for you.

What he said, x2.

[El Grego]

I'll second the call for the continued use of Dragon Rampant.  If you are using singly based figures, it might be easier to visualise larger units if you use sabots.

Personally, I am taking two approaches to my fantasy mass combat games (non-Tolkien however).  For my 28mm Tékumel games, I am basing them for the old Chipco Fantasy Rules! system, which uses square element bases.  And, I am considering using HoTT for my soon-to-be-realised 15mm fantasy project.  FR! has a more detailed but still simple magic system compared to HoTT, but the combat system in HoTT is more subtle.

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

Thanks for the replies.  I will try DR upscaled, but might use the optional rules for flanks etc.
Might give Hail Caesar another go - tried it once but something just didn't seem right.  One more game might give me a better feel for it.