US-Japan Pacific War questions

[commissarmoody]

Ok war is going hot and heavy in Europe and China. Japan bombs the Hawaiian islands and declares war on the US. But stop, Hitler doesn't live up to his end of the deal. And condemns the attack by the Japanese....Or just doesn't declare war and do to political finagling the US does not get involved in the war in Europe.

I see the war in the Pacific going pretty much as it did go in WW2 but on a faster pace because of the full use industrial might going to defeating the Japanese.  Now this is all hypothetical but how do you guys think the Pacific war would have been different?
Would the invasion of the home islands have happened with out the A-bomb and the Soviets invading into Manchuria? How would an invasion have gone down? Would the Emperor be whisked away? And where would he be taken?
And where can I find good early 20th center Japanese civilians to represent the local population and insurgents.

I can see an American Expeditionary force to China to help the Nationalist forces fight the Japanese on the continent. And an invasion of Japan fallowed by a long and brutal occupation. Ok what are your ideas? Also if any one has read any fiction about such a thing happening I would be happy to hear about it and would like to know more. 

[carlos marighela]

The Japanese home islands didn't really need invading, at least in a strictly military sense. Politically probably but militarily,once the US Navy achieved a stranglehold on Japanese shipping, it was merely  matter of time. Remember that the Japanese Empire declared war to gain access to oil, rubber and other vital commodities in SE Asia. About the only thing the Japanese were self sufficient in was coal. Total control over Japanese sea lanes which is essentially where the US was by 1945 would mean that the Japanese fishing fleet, which sustained a major portion of the Japanese diet would also disappear or be severely constrained.

Conventional bombing by the way had essentially achieved the destruction of Japanese industrial capacity. The target cities for the atom bombs were largely chosen on the basis that they were pretty much the only two major Japanese cities that hadn't been razed by Curtis Le May's fire bombing campaign.

A combination of carpet bombing and naval blockade would have done the job. The A bombs and the Soviet invasion of Manchuria were just additional, psychological tipping points, almost the icing on the cake. More resources, job done quicker.

By the by you shouldn't assume that no declaration of war by Adolf means no war with Germany or that significant military resources would be set aside for the Atlantic.  Pearl Harbour provided a useful pretext. The Roosevelt administration wasn't keen on the prospect of Nazi hegemony in Europe.

[commissarmoody]

  Thanks Carlos, I think What I am trying to figure out here is a fictional divergent from are own time line. Where the US only fights a war in the Pacific and Roosevelt is only able to barely keep the land lease thing going if at all.
And with out the Soviets joining in the Eastern fun and most likely the US forces would be in Okinawa before the A bomb was ready.

Would the invasion of the main Islands have been needed then? Would the Japanese be willing to concede unconditional surrender with out the Soviets and threat of more A-bombs and starvation? 

[commissarmoody]

Or same some thing crazy happens and the UK sues for peace after Dunkirk and this leaves the war in the Pacific as a completely different campaign. Where as the War in Europe is the War of European Fascists against the soviets. 

[carlos marighela]

Thanks Carlos, I think What I am trying to figure out here is a fictional divergent from are own time line. Where the US only fights a war in the Pacific and Roosevelt is only able to barely keep the land lease thing going if at all.
And with out the Soviets joining in the Eastern fun and most likely the US forces would be in Okinawa before the A bomb was ready.

Would the invasion of the main Islands have been needed then? Would the Japanese be willing to concede unconditional surrender with out the Soviets and threat of more A-bombs and starvation? 

Reasonable precis of events surrounding the Japanese surrender here: http://www.spectacle.org/696/long.html

Given that in reality, the Japanese did surrender without an invasion of the home islands and given that there is considerable debate as to how much influence the A bombs made, it's only reasonable to conclude that they may well have (IMO were likely to) surrender anyway as their cities were razed to the ground, their industrial output destroyed and their ability to feed the population removed.

[commissarmoody]

I can agree with that, people will fight even if they don't have weapons. But when they can no longer feed themselves. that leads to problems.....Now I am wondering if maybe the Emperor is killed by accident in a firebombing attack. That might ether break or push them to fight even more fanatical.

I am trying to think of Weird war ideas for the Pacific war that docent just included samaras, oni and ninjas fighting Caption America and walking tanks.

[Cory]

There are a whole lot of ways to approach an alternate end. One would be following the US Army's plan to move through the Philippines and China before launching the invasion of the home islands from Korea. This was expected to take an extra couple of years, which might allow not only Japan to build more advanced equipment but also could have seen the final showdown coinciding with the outbreak of the cold war.

As to Japanese civilians, most would only be a paint job different than so many other western civilians - use Black Tree, West Wind, Brigade, et al. I might be tempted to swap a few heads with those with more traditional straw hats or Warlord's spare Japanese heads in cap.
 

[commissarmoody]

Thanks, I honestly do not know any thing about the plan to move all the way from the Philippines and china and into Korea. What was that plane called and can you provide any links or names of books that might talk about it?

[commissarmoody]

Operation Downfall

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/mpKWAJzijcQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

[Cory]

Long before Downfall there were two main versions of the leap frog strategy - Nimitz's island plan and an army plan usually linked with MacArthur. Not my area of expertise, I can't give any good links, I've seen it mentioned in a couple of Nimitz bios.

[commissarmoody]

Thanks just the same,  I will look to see if I can find it.

[Cory]

I was discussing your idea with another gamer this morning and he mentioned that his grandfather (who had been one of the US civilians stranded in China by Pearl Harbor) had talked about the large mounted cavalry units operated by the collaborating Chinese. It would definitely be a different Pacific unit.

[commissarmoody]

From my limited reading of the war in China I heard the same thing