Swordpoint...

[aircav]

We were talking to Andy (Lord S) at the uk grand Melee & he said that they only had the two armies on the correct bases & that it wasn't a problem using their other armies for the system,  the play testing was done with individual based figures on movement trays.
I don't see what all the fuss is about really.

[A Lot of Gaul]

For those who may be interested, the Swordpoint rulebook is now available for pre-order on the Gripping Beast web site.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, there will also be a "Let's play Swordpoint" preview article in the upcoming WS&S 87.

[Bowman]

I think I'll be giving Swordpoint a miss, and it is totally down to the basing.
All my 28mm stuff is individually based (on 25mm round bases). It makes no difference to me whether a unit is 40mm swaure or 50mm square. What bothers me is wasting all that game time taking out HUNDREDS of figures and having to put them all on sabot bases and, at the end of the game, having to take HUNDREDS of figures off and put them all away again.

This is something I don't understand. If you have sabot trays, why place all the troops on the trays and then remove them after the game? Why not just keep them and transport them on the movement trays?

Look, I love playing Saga and prefer them on 25mm round bases. I also like playing Hail Caesar and like playing with large armies. ALL my Saga armies (with the exception of Skraelings) do double duty as Hail Caesar units. They go on magnetized bases and work fine. Some of my HC units are from old WAB armies and are on 20mm bases, some are 4 figures on 40X40mm bases, and some are on round 25mm bases (the Saga figures). When I play Saga, I bring the movement tray(s) for that specific army and just pick the figure from the tray.

I'm also looking forward to Swordpoint and will easily adapt to it.

This is a mountain from a mole hill.

[Gracchus Armisurplus]

Following on from the now defunct 'new' thread:

The other thread linked in one of the posts above has a full discussion of this same topic. There are always ways to accommodate your figures without needing to rebase, if you just apply a little positive creative thought to the situation.

For example, if your figures are based on 25mm rounds, you can place 4 of them on a 50mm x 50mm close order infantry movement tray, making 50mm x 50mm the 'standard' base size for your Swordpoint armies. Alternatively, you could place a single 25mm-round based figure on a 40mm x 40mm close order infantry base, and simply declare that it actually has a 'base strength' of 4.

To cite another example, my own miniature armies are all comprised of 18mm figures, with 6 figures per close order infantry base. Even so, I can still play Swordpoint with no problem, simply by assigning each base a 'base strength' of 4, regardless of the actual number of figures mounted on it. Job done!

Cheers,
Scott

Right, but some games don't feature model/base removal so the actual basing standard doesn't matter. For Kings of War or Hail Caesar it largely doesn't matter how my figures are based so a simple sabot movement tray ala War of the Ring is perfectly fine to use. In a system where I need to build units from smaller bases, and then remove those bases as the game progresses, it becomes more problematic. Yes, I can just increase my base size to ~55mm (to allow for edges on the trays and to prevent bases rubbing together. With precision machining could probably bring that down a mm or two) but now my units are all 30% to 50% larger than my opponents, with flow on effects in the game. Likewise I can fit a single model onto a 40mm base, but then my army looks ridiculous.

I wasn't too concerned about this initially but the mechanic of removing bases during the game makes it very difficult to find a solution that I'll be happy with. It's much easier to fit 25mm rounds into a base that's say, 200mm wide than it is to fit them into 40mm sections.

[Captain Blood]

I briefly watched Swordpoint being played at the Warfare show in Reading at the weekend. Nice demo table with Teutonic Knights.
Didn't really catch the mechanics, so no idea how it plays. But it looked a lot like a good old-fashioned WRG 5th/6th style wargame - seven or eight units of varying denominations on each side, with two lines moving towards each other in neat blocks. Superficially, just another traditional wargame in the old style. But perhaps it has hidden depths and ingenious rules mechanisms that belie appearances

[Charlie_]

[Nord]

Anybody got the book? I am confused as to whether it contains army lists, or are they in upcoming supplements? Not even a rundown of contents on the GB site or facebook page, kinda strange that they are selling it on the strength of a cover picture and bit of blurb. Or is it asking too much for a little detail on contents/how the game plays?

EDIT Found a flickthrough on youtube which partly answers the above. 66 page softback, all rules and some army lists, no fluffy bits. Detailed index and a reference section.

[john Hollyoak]

Can't see that anybody has mentioned the Meeples and Miniatures podcast. Episode 182 has a lengthy interview with Martin Gibbins about Spearpoint.
John

[A Lot of Gaul]

I received my copy of Swordpoint in yesterday's post. The rulebook is 68 pages in all, saddle stitched, A4 size, with full color card stock covers and thick glossy pages. It should hold up very well under repeated use on the tabletop. Pages 1-7 of the rulebook include the cover and credits, a brief introduction to the rules, a listing of items needed for playing the game, and instructions for choosing forces, setting up the game and deploying troops.

Pages 8-10 of Swordpoint cover basic game concepts, starting with Unit Profiles (stat lines). Commanders have ratings for Attack bonuses (A), and Cohesion (C). Units have ratings for Defense (D), and Cohesion (C). Units have minimum and maximum numbers of bases depending on troop type, and fight in formations one, two or more ranks deep. Non-skirmish units count as Formed if the front rank is at least three bases wide. There is a chart listing unit and commander types, and giving minimum and maximum numbers of bases, recommended numbers of figures per base, base strengths (not always the same as the number of figures per base), and recommended base sizes for each unit and commander type. Other definitions cover Unit Order, Formed Troops, Base Strength, Command and Control, Facing, Measurement, Momentum (each army begins the game with a pool of five Momentum tokens), and Winning the Game (victory conditions).

Swordpoint pages 10-31 describe in detail the game turn, which is is divided into the following phases:

The Initial Phase - tests taken for Cohesion loss, Terror, Impetuous troops, units attempting to return from off-table, and removal of Discouraged markers.

The Shooting Phase - units armed with missile weapons declare targets, with each unit base rolling a D6 to hit, subject to various modifiers. The target unit then performs saving rolls for each successful hit, attempting to roll equal or higher on a D6 than the target unit's Defense value. Any unsaved hits are converted to 'kills,' which can result in target units becoming Discouraged and/or having to take a Cohesion test. When a unit suffers 'kills' equal to the strength of a base, a base is removed. Excess 'kills' are discarded. Units from both sides are assumed to shoot simultaneously.

The Movement Phase - the opposing players each roll a D6, with the high scorer then choosing whether to take or forego the initiative. Prior to the dice roll, each player can elect to spend up to three Momentum tokens to increase their dice score. Ties result in a re-roll. The initiative player goes first in each part of the phase, which includes, 1) declaring charges and charge responses; 2) rallying troops that are currently fleeing; 3) compulsory moves for fleeing troops that have not rallied, units that are responding to a charge, and troops that are disengaging from combat; 4) moving charging troops; and 5) all voluntary troop movements and manoeuvers.

The Combat Phase - all units in contact with enemy troops fight according to a set combat sequence, using a similar attacker-rolls-to-hit, defender-rolls-to-save procedure as for shooting. D6 rolls are subject to modifiers, and prior to combat each player can expend up to three Momentum tokens to add points to their combat resolution. Combat results can also be moderated by units being in a Line of Battle, i.e. two or more friendly formed units that are within 1" of each other's flank zone. Combat results range in severity from simply continuing the fight, to the unit suffering more kills falling back and becoming discouraged, having to take a Break test, or automatically breaking and fleeing. As for shooting, when a unit suffers 'kills' equal to the strength of a base, a base is removed; all excess 'kills' are discarded. All combat is considered to be simultaneous.

The remaining rulebook sections discuss in detail the use of Cohesion Tests (pp. 32-3); Command Figures (pp. 34-5); units in Close, Open and Skirmish Order (pp. 36-7); Specialist Forces, i.e. chariots and elephants (pp. 38-41 - torsion artillery is covered in a free downloadable PDF on the Swordpoint website); a number of Special Rules assigned to give historical characteristics to individual units (pp. 42-6); a Reference Section summarizing the various rules for shooting, weapon, Defense, and combat result modifiers, the use of Momentum tokens, causes for loss of Cohesion, and awarding Discouraged markers (pp. 46-7).

There are also twelve sample army lists - Later Carthaginian, Polybian Republican Rome, Early Imperial Roman, Sassanid, Dark Age Britain and Ireland, Late Imperial Roman, Vikings, Later Saxon Kingdoms, Anglo Danish, Norman and Breton, Medieval Russian, and Ordensstaat (pp. 48-63 - additional draft army lists are available as free downloads on the Swordpoint website); and an extensive Index (pp. 64-6). The final two pages comprise the inside and outside of the back cover.

Throughout the rulebook are included diagrams illustrating key points, sidebar lists of Special Rules pertinent to that section of the book, and 'eye candy' photographs of nicely painted Gripping Beast miniatures. IMHO, Swordpoint looks to be an excellent addition to the body of rule sets for wargaming Ancients mass battles in miniature. I can't wait to get started on my first game!

[Mosstrooper]

Is there a playsheet

[A Lot of Gaul]

Is there a playsheet

There is no playsheet included in the rulebook. The nearest thing would be the Reference Section summaries on pp. 46-7.

[Gracchus Armisurplus]

It sounds like a really cool game, I'm just a little sad about the direction they went with for basing/unit creation. I think I'll be sticking with KoW:H, not least because there's already a couple of local KoW players and because I won't need to re-base my existing forces.

[Nord]

Thank you for that excellent summary, it sounds like a fascinating game. If GB got their act together and did something like this I think more people would buy it, they seem very shy about advertising their wares, strange!

Rebasing my arse - use move trays, just like you do in KOW and most other games, it's not rocket science.

[Gracchus Armisurplus]

Thank you for that excellent summary, it sounds like a fascinating game. If GB got their act together and did something like this I think more people would buy it, they seem very shy about advertising their wares, strange!

Rebasing my arse - use move trays, just like you do in KOW and most other games, it's not rocket science.

Yeah but you can't fit 25mm rounds jnto 40mm bases. Either your units end up being massively over sized (due to increasing the base size to fit 25m rounds) or your units look ridiculously under strength  (because you can only fit one model per base).

[Nord]

So use 50mm bases.