Opinions on Dropfleet Commander?

[Hobby Services]

Anyone here (preferably a Kickstarter backer who's had more time to look at it) got a quick review or just general opinion of the new game from Hawk Wargames?  The minis look terrific (albeit rather intricately detailed) and the premise of a spaceship game that concetrates on delivering planetary assaults seems innovative, but I haven't seen/heard much about the final form of the rules yet.  Thoughts?

[Dargoth]

I'd gladly give you an opinion, but Hawk Wargames are a bunch of cunts and I don't have my pledge. My pledge is going to one of LGS that need to be restocked (yup those fuckers sent the product to retail before sending out the pledges to the backers, against previous promises, and now are restocking those that sold out) or being packed for Warfare, a gaming show in Reading UK on the 19th and 20th, because sales!
But I already paid a year ago so fuck me.

[Daeothar]

I had a good chat with the Hawk Wargames guys at Crisis about the above issue, and things are a bit more nuanced than you seem to (be willing to) preceive.

Stores all want their stocks well in advance of Christmas, especially the bigger ones (think Amazon etc), so they demanded to receive the products well before. And whether you like it or not, a small company such as Hawk Wargames has no choice but to comply. However; it was agreed with all that the retail products would not be put up for sale until all pledges had been fulfilled.

And of course, this agreement was promptly broken by some of the larger stores, who saw demand and perceived no reason to adhere to said agreement. Apparently a gentleman's agreement only goes as far as the door... And when one online store started selling, all other stores had to follow, for fear of losing out on sales.

So; if you want to blame anyone for the fact that you had to take a box from your LGS to beat the arrival of your pledge, blame the store: as you so succinctly put it, 'because sales'.

FYI: at Crisis they only had their demo miniatures displayed and a mocked up empty box plus empty blisters, because there simply was nothing available. They did not sell Dropfleet, and the same staff that promoted the game are apparently also still waiting for their own pledges.

[Dargoth]

Yes especially the restock.  What you are saying clashes with what I heard comes from stores. All in all a lie is a lie. No communication, shady practices. Also not keeping release date by the stores - that's complete bullshit. Any store would think twice before offering something that it should not. The lawsuits in such cases are ridiculous. So there was no agreement.

[axabrax]

+1. In the USA and I still have nothing. I am also not pleased that all of the battlemats I bought will be full of permanent creases as they decided to fold them rather than tube them, but perhaps I should have figured.

I'd gladly give you an opinion, but Hawk Wargames are a bunch of c***s and I don't have my pledge. My pledge is going to one of LGS that need to be restocked (yup those fuckers sent the product to retail before sending out the pledges to the backers, against previous promises, and now are restocking those that sold out) or being packed for Warfare, a gaming show in Reading UK on the 19th and 20th, because sales!
But I already paid a year ago so fuck me.

[Elbows]

Yes especially the restock.   What you are saying clashes with what I heard comes from stores. All in all a lie is a lie. No communication, shady practices. Also not keeping release date by the stores - that's complete bullshit. Any store would think twice before offering something that it should not. The lawsuits in such cases are ridiculous. So there was no agreement.

So, who's been lying?  You seem pretty adamant about vilifying Hawk Wargames but you're just ranting without producing information.  No company the size of Hawk Wargames is going to go and spend money on a lawsuit for something released a few weeks early.  This isn't Sony or Disney you're dealing with.

On the no communication front, I assume you mean Hawk is not providing any email updates?  What do you consider shady practices?

I feel the vitriol in a lot of these threads is comically high for toy soldiers.  Maybe wind it in a little?  Unless Hawk is full of criminals like some other companies you'll get your stuff - maybe a couple of weeks late.  There are more important things to worry about.  

[Dargoth]

I really don't mind waiting. I backed many other Kickstarters and a delay is nothing new or bad. Withholding product to sell to someone else is. Not responding to any form of contact is. (Well what should they say - yes we're c****?)
And really it's not about the toy soldiers. I have both Conan (a year after initial date) and the Others (more than half of year after initial date) from the newest that arrived, not to mention 8+ kilograms of unpainted 15mm stuff to occupy me. It's about how they treat people. That's what's f**** up.

[Jagannath]

I'm the operations manager for a relatively well known independent fashion store - on the surface very different, but not really and Daeothar'a post sounds fully feasible.

 

Also not keeping release date by the stores - that's complete bullshit. Any store would think twice before offering something that it should not.

Nonsense. If you're scared of losing your account/souring a relationship you abide by the rules (brands that tend to have lots of launch dates tend to monitor and police this), otherwise you do what you want/need to as a retailer. No retailer will be scared of Hawk Wargames, they're not in the position of power in this scenario. I'm guessing the retailers want to sell through a high demand item before inevitable Black Friday discounts to preserve margin, so are launching it.

Not receiving your pledge is pretty crap, and frustrating, but save the c-bombs for someone who deserves it eh? Independent business aren't easy, and these guys are trying to bring some pretty spaceships to market, not rob yer nan.

[Rhelyk]

I have no skin in this game as it were since I don't play DZC or DFC, but I worked at a FLGS for over 6 years and I agree, you only follow street dates if you face some kind of repercussion. WotC is big enough and serious enough about street dates that you don't dare sell early as they WILL pull their support, and tournament support for magic: the Gathering is how most shops stay in business. It's certainly how ours did when I worked there. We bought all WotC product from a 3rd part distributor (Alliance Games, mostly) and product would arrive early so you could have it out on shelves the moment you opened your doors on release day, but all the tournament support comes directly from WotC and they WILL blacklist you for selling before that date. They also have enough pull with distributors that the distributors will stop shipping you product early if you get caught selling before the street date since THEY don't want to get in trouble with WotC. Indeed midnight releases are common for shops with large M:TG crowds.

But that was WotC, and D&D and especially Magic:TG are HUGE in the industry. The other guys, nobody cared. Games Workshop is of course the big dog for miniatures and their street dates are always on a saturday. We usually received orders on a thursday or friday and would put it right out on the shelves, never mattered. IF a GW rep happened to make one of their once-in-a-6-month check-ins and you had new product out early you'd get a dissapointed "hey, don't sell those till saturday, please?" and that was it. They didn't even make you to take the stuff down, just an "oh yeah, sorry" and they were off. And we were buying directly from GW, not through distributors and getting what little tournament support they offered at the time. And if a company was even smaller than GW? You didn't bother waiting even if you realized there WAS a street date, if it's in stock it's on the shelf. There is no amount of backlash that Hawk Wargames could possibly pull to concern a shop, not unless they can take away something tangible like tournament support. Not unless they pull enough weight to delay product shipments. Hawk isn't big enough to carry that weight. Heck, even Privateer Press is only now getting big enough that they could pull something like they did with online retailers this summer.

[katie]

"these guys are trying to bring some pretty spaceships to market, not rob yer nan."

Yeah. I'm sure they'll fill all the back orders eventually. But the key there is the latter word; the eventualness.

It's not like Kickstarters have ever just failed to deliver at all after long cycles of letting people down...

The backers aren't people who've ordered stuff for delivery whenever the seller can't find another buyer -- they ordered and PAID for it to be delivered by a date.

They have a legitimate expectation of best effort satisfaction.

[Jagannath]

They didn't order and pay for delivery date really though. They invested in a project, with a projection of goods and delivery. I agree that not receiving the goods before they hit retail must be frustrating, but I was really trying finback Elbows and Daeothar up - much more nuanced than people are giving credit for.

I for one hope that they're not suffering from an overly successful kickstarter and it all comes good for them... it can't be fun when it's not going quite to plan.

[Hobby Services]

People who were shafted on the KS (or at least perceive themselves as shafted) have my sympathy, but I was looking for opinions on the game itself and the minis that come with it, not trying to start a debate about the manufacturer's business practices.  It's certainly out in some stores and online in limited amounts, and I assume someone here is playing it by now.

[Dargoth]

Their FAQ:

I’ve backed other Kickstarters and I’ve still yet to receive my goods, in some cases when the game is in the shops to buy! What stops this happening again?

We’re committed to this not happening. As far as is humanly possible we will confirm that each backer has their rewards before the game hits stores, with some time difference between the two delivery dates.

Like not sending to retail and then sending the re-stock to retail before sending stuff to the backers?

So yeah we did pay for the project on the terms given. That was one of them. As I said I have no quarrel with getting stuff late, just being lied to.

[The Voivod]

Apparently it wasn't humanly possible then?

You want them to damage their buseness contacts and their company?
They can't afford that.
It's their first kickstarter so it's only to be expected that not everything turns out as planned.

If you do not get your stuff or if it is not of a decent quality you will have my sympathy, otherwise..... that's kickstarter.

Now to the questions of the OP.
While I have not played the game, there are some play throughs on Beast of war. Personally, I thought it looked like loads of fun.
I'm definitly planning on getting this game at some point. I do play Dropzone Commander and it's a great game with great mini's (I don't even mind their resin). Love the fluff as well.

[Maledrakh]

I am always a little surprised by how swiftly many people will assume bad intent in others. For my part, I think I will wait a little longer before assuming Hawk Wargames is pulling a Prodos on this KS. By all accounts they are an honoroble company and in the process of delivering the KS to backers, but were overtaken by the timing.

As a small business owner myself, I also appreciate Hawk wargames position here. Sometimes you simply are obliged by reality to go back on your word, galling as it is, because of the bigger picture. The timing for Christmas sales is the key. I am sure that if this was in the spring, or even summer, Hawk would have waited with retail as they said. If they had chosen to postpone retail launch, I am sure they would have lost a great deal of retail sales never to get them back. And in the grand scheme of things, it really should not matter as long as they deliver the KS in a timely manner going forward from this point.

I also have worked at a games store, and agree with the stock on shelf principle being in effect, as stated by several other posters. Only the very big fish get to dictate any kind of date, terms, or even price points. The first shop to start selling releases the flood, because everyone will have to join in to not miss out on the sales.

Also, I think it is only counts as "lies" if they are stating falsehoods with intent to decieve. I don't belive (yet) that this is the case. IMHO Hawk seems to be one of the companies with the most integrity around. I think it rather more plausible that they simply have been overtaken by the timing and the huge effort it is to get such an amount of packages shipped, and were obliged by reality to get the retail shipments out.

Note that it takes comparatively less effort to ship for retail than to backers. Dave is on record saying that the actual physical product to be shipped to backers is present in the warehouse and that these are seperate from what gets shipped to retail, so they are not really selling "my" reward off instead of sending to me.

...But time will tell. If most packages still have not been received by backers in the course of the next couple months, then we can cry shenanigans. For the time being I will choose not to assume Hawk are lying c**nts, as was so eloquently put in an earlier post.