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Author Topic: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles  (Read 2012 times)

Offline Vagabond

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What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« on: November 18, 2016, 06:44:56 PM »
Hi Guys

I am new to this board as I am mainly interested in Pulp style small skirmish games.

However I have some old armies that I would like to resurrect and get some more games out of them, one of these is a 15mm French army based around 1750.

I used to use WRG rules, never really got on with their 1750 - 1850 or 1685 - 1845 much prefered George Gush 1420 to 1700 2nd edition 1979 which probably gives some indication of how long it is since these guys were out on the table.

The figure scale I was using was 1/50 so Cavalry are squadrons of 3 figures, 2 squadrons to a regiment. and infantry are battalions of 12 figures 2 battalions to a regiment.

There are 60 cavalry squadrons 180 figs and 37 infantry battalions 440 figures. These split quite nicely into french and Foreign regiments to give me roughly equal forces on both side.

I would appreciate your views on rule sets you might think suitable.

I am looking for rules that are clear and well written ( I don't like conversational rules - especially if they don't have a crib sheet) very little book keeping, preferably not too many counters on the table and give a good feel for the period.

I did wonder about Impetus with the update for my period, I have the basic rules but need to print them out to read, has anyone used these and what did you think.

Thanks for any thoughts you might have.


Offline fred

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2016, 06:48:50 PM »
If you are considering Impetus, then you might want to look at Baroque, which is aimed at 1500s to 1700. I think there is a supplement coming for later. I have Impetus, and while I think it seems like a good game, I am struggling to get into it.

Honours of War from Osprey is definately worth a look - it gets good reviews and seems very playable. I have a copy but haven't even got round to reading it. Another advantage is that is available very cheaply from Amazon and the like.


Offline mellis1644

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2016, 07:10:47 PM »
I'm definitely not an impetus fan by any means - various reasons I won't go into here. But they have never given me a game I enjoyed, so I would not recommend a modification to that. I also would certainly argue they do not meet your requirements anyway - it's definitely not clear and well written IMO.

As you do not want conversational style rules, that means Black Powder is likely not one you'd be interested in either, but it does have it's merits, but is far from perfect.

I'd second the Honors of War set. We played that recently and had a lot of fun. It's also not a budget breaker as Osprey produce it. I created a blog post about our first game here, using my 6mm figs: https://mellis1644.wordpress.com/2016/10/22/honours-of-war-first-game/

« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 07:13:47 PM by mellis1644 »
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Offline Vagabond

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2016, 11:25:22 PM »
   Fred thanks for quick reply, I will check out honours of war, regarding Impetus is there anything specific about the rules that you struggle with. I know with rules we all have our own view which is not necessarily the same as anyone elses. Doesn't make them a bad set.

    Mellis1644 same thanks for the quick reply. I read your AAR it sounds like a solid game with a reasonable outcome. I shall be playing this solo, do you think it will work for that if I put some effort into creating an alternative opponent?

 It also sounded as though it ate up the time a bit, that really was my issue with the rules I am using. A game would last quite a few hours and usually solo there was not enough happening to hold my interest and I would halt the game unfinished.

Thanks again for your views.

Offline Etranger

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2016, 06:10:40 AM »
Sam Mustafa's Maurice is an option for you, although his card driven mechanisms aren't to everyone's taste. http://www.sammustafa.com/honour/modules-games/maurice/
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Offline Vagabond

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2016, 08:35:55 AM »
Etranger - thanks I will have a look at this but at $48 for the book and cards and a poor exchange rate it's probably going to be a bit rich for me.  :'(
 A quick look at his site doesn't give any indication if the number of pages in the book! Having said that I'm a big fan of Maurice de Saxe both as a man and a general, I bought his Reveries last year but still to read it.

Offline fred

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2016, 10:00:39 AM »
Baroque / Impetus - the problem I have with them is simply trying to understand what the rules are trying to describe. I think this is in part due to them originally being writtten in Italian and translated to English. Baroque is certainly clearer than Basic Impetus. I am persevering as there seem to be some good ideas in the set.

I'd also avoid Black Powder as it really seems to be a bunch of ideas loosely assembled to provide something like a game. It's command mechanism though is highly suitable to solo play, as it causes a lot of friction with units frequently not doing anything and occasionally running across the table.

Maurice - we played this quite a lot for a few months but ultimately we stopped as it felt like a card game which used miniatures as counters. I also don't think it would suit solo play due to the need to manage a hand of cards for each side.

Honours of War - several of the guys on the Pendraken forum have played this a lot. I will see if I can find some links later.

Offline Vagabond

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2016, 05:15:39 PM »
Fred - Thanks for this info, I have looked at the Pendraken Forum and read some of the stuff by Wargaming Addict on his blog, it all seems to hang together, although I am not sure about units retreating without any cause as far as I could see just because they have a poor comander, but this might work well for a solo game.

Also went to the Honours of War forum but still need to browse that.

Appreciate your other comments  :)

Offline Yarkshire Gamer

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2016, 05:25:02 PM »
I use Die Kreigkunst, which is the 7YW version of General de Brigade, quite old school and give a real feel for the period.

Partisan Press still have copies.

Regards Ken
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Offline carlos marighela

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2016, 05:29:02 AM »
Warfare in the Age of Reason, fits your figure scale perfectly and they are a damn good set of rules to boot.
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Offline warrenpeace

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2016, 07:51:59 PM »
Vagabond, is your 15mm French army based with infantry in two ranks, or one? And is cavalry based 3 figures per stand?

The old Koenig Krieg rules first published in 1982 had infantry units based in two ranks, with each figure representing about 50 men. There is a 3rd edition that I believe was published in 2009. The new version isn't cheap. But Koenig Krieg still has its fans.

Warfare in the Age of Reason is another old set of rules that still has its fans. Infantry is based in a single rank, with each figure representing about 50 men, so battalions are twice as wide as those based for Koenig Krieg.

I have armies for West Germany in the SYW based for Koenig Krieg. But I haven't actually tried the Koenig Krieg rules. I'll probably try the new Honours of War rules.

Are you planning to have your French fight in the War of Austrian Succession, the Seven Years War, or an imaginary war?
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Offline Mindenbrush

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2016, 11:28:18 PM »
Age of Honor which is based on Age of Eagles which is in turn based on Fire & Fury Brigade ruleset.
A very easy to learn and play set of rules that give a good feel for the period for massed 15mm games.

I also like Age of Reason, been playing it for 25 years but prefer it for 25mm rather than 15mm.
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Offline mellis1644

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2016, 01:32:25 PM »
Baroque / Impetus - the problem I have with them is simply trying to understand what the rules are trying to describe. I think this is in part due to them originally being writtten in Italian and translated to English. Baroque is certainly clearer than Basic Impetus. I am persevering as there seem to be some good ideas in the set.

Thats part of the problem for me. Also the overpowered evade mechanism, the very complex (and depending on version) different options the various units have for move/reaction plus the fact that a few die rolls are hugely important while many are not were all turn offs for me. We ended up 'playing the rules' and having discussions on them vs. playing a game. Impetus has some cool ideas but they are just not worth the effort of getting too. There are many better ancients sets out there these days - such as Sword and Spear.

For honors of War, we played a large game and found it a little long for a 3 hour game with 4 people. But we were close to a result. So for thing I think it was pretty good really timing wise. The order mechanism will work for solo play. Maybe not quite as well as some systems but better than many.

Offline Vagabond

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2016, 04:55:56 PM »
Thanks for all the responses - interesting that there doesn't seem to be much of a consensus but I guess that’s wargaming for you.

I have had more time to look at the Honours of War Forum and was impressed, especially by the knowledge and mature discussion of the guys using the rules, also read a few more AAR’s, on balance it seems like worth a punt, especially at the price.

Yarkshire Gamer – I suspect Die Kriegkunst, apart from being tricky to pronounce  ;) might be a bit too detailed for what I am looking for. The idea of taking a morale check to charge, then getting shot at, and then taking another test to see if you charge home is in my view the way rules should work and is a similar complexity I would think to what I have used in the past but that is what I am trying to get away from.
 
The number of times I have set the table up, moved a couple of turns, and then sat with a glass of wine thinking, bloody hell they look nice - just like a painting of a battle but after an hour enjoying looking at my men I can't be bothered to continue and I pack them away again. The downside of solo gaming. :'(

Carlos and Mindenbrush, - thanks for your suggestions I will have a look at them.

Warren – my infantry regiments are 2 battalions of 12 figures each, the stands are 4, 4, 2, 1, 1. so I use 2 ranks of 6 for fighting and 3 ranks of 4 for marching, but I could deploy them in a single line of 12. The individuals are so that casualties can be removed.

I know that if you look at anything like a ground scale they should be deployed in a single line, but even then the depth is totally out of scale, I much prefer to see 2 lines I think one just looks wrong.

The rules I have used usually allow 2 ranks firing and some support for the 2nd rank in melee. The cavalry are regiments of 2 squadrons of 3, based 3, 2, 1, they manoeuvre as 2 ranks of 3, i.e. 1 squadron behind the other and fight usually side by side.

All the units in my army served at Fontenoy and are painted as such, so 1745 War of Austrian Succession, but some of the figures themselves have turnbacks on the coats so are 7 Years War figures, (there wasn’t much choice in figures back then) :?.
I am looking for new rules to give me exciting solo games as I intend to use them to continue a campaign I started maybe 35 years ago, based on some of the ideas of Charles Grant, what is now called imagi-nations.
The countries are set some where between France and the small German states, as I said the army is roughly half French and half Foreign Regiments, who are German, Swiss, Irish and Scots, so a nice mix of Blue and Red coats.

All my commanders from Colonels upwards have abilities from -2 to +2 reflecting Initiative, also Attacking and Defending capabilities, so I think that will fit into the Honours of War system. I need to look at the rules you have sugested.

I shall do this solo and so my view is that what ever rules I use I can fiddle the firing and movement distances to suit my basing and my opponent will inevitably agree with me.

Mellis – Sound like Impetus might not suit, but as I have the free basic rules I will give them a whirl first. HofW in 3 hours for a large game sounds about what I am after, my games used to take all day :( :(

Offline Fencing Frog

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Re: What Rules for 15mm 1750's large Battles
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2016, 07:33:32 PM »

 

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