*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 15, 2022, 06:08:21 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Donate

We Appreciate Your Support

Recent

Author Topic: Dragoons in Lion Rampant  (Read 1293 times)

Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 844
    • Army Royal
Dragoons in Lion Rampant
« on: December 11, 2016, 02:02:27 PM »
I'm preparing some tweaks to Lion Rampant to expand it into the early sixteenth century and wondered on the treatment of dragoons which I'm going to have as a special rule for Mounted Archers, Arquebusiers and Crossbowmen.

So far I've established;
 
mounted / dismounted movement range
mounted / dismounted defence value so they essentially fight as archers dismounted but aren't too good mounted
they dismount to fire -  a simplification to cover all of the above named troops, for comparison I've established stradiots and border horse as being able to fire from the saddle and not as dragoons.

So they're mobile missile infantry that dismount to fire, I'm not sure whether to state that they cant shoot in the bound in which they've dismounted but thinking about it I don't suppose that takes too long, thoughts?

Stuart

Online Charlie_

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1370
Re: Dragoons in Lion Rampant
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2016, 02:28:06 PM »
Interesting, I've been having similar thoughts for my own rule system.

I'm vaguely familiar with how Lion Rampant works... Is there a 'move & shoot' type action?

For my system, I'm saying mounted longbowmen cannot move & shoot. So they can make a big long move action one turn to get into position, and shoot next turn. In comparison, cavalry with 'light crossbows' can move & shoot. From the saddle, but not on the move. Meaning they can move half rate and shoot as one action, representing them moving forward, then stopping to shoot, but not having to dismount. This is supposed to represent lighter crossbows which from what I've read could be loaded and fired from the saddle when stationary, but lack the range and power of heavier crossbows (or longbows).
And then there are true horse archers, who can fire from the saddle on the move, and so can make a full distance 'move & shoot' action (though of course don't use longbows, so have a much shorter range).

Offline Codsticker

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • *
  • Posts: 2777
    • Kodsticklerburg: A Mordheim project
Re: Dragoons in Lion Rampant
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2016, 05:26:15 PM »
Why not dismount them as Bidowers?
...
Don't forget that Mounted Serjeants have the Mounted Bows/Crossbows upgrade - might that not be something to play around with?
.
Or perhaps the Mounted Yeomen profile (Shoot on a 6+, Charge 7+ with Skirmish and Evade).  Cost them at 5 pts. and give them a Shoot Value of 4+/18". That would make them more expensive than Mounted Sergeants with Crossbows but better at shooting, less likely to charge and a lower courage.

edit: they could also activate to Shoot on a 7+ so they are consistent with other Crossbow armed troops but the 6+ might also represent the possibility that troops chosen for that role were of higher quality than your regular crossbow/handgonne armed troops.

Offline Arlequín

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 6218
  • Culpame de la Bossa Nova...
Re: Dragoons in Lion Rampant
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2016, 06:05:24 PM »
Pikeman's Lament, the Pike and Shot variant of LR, is due in January, if you can wait to see how Mr Mersey has handled Dragoons. I'm normally loathe to suggest ECW concepts for medieval warfare, but I do actually think that 'dragoons' had their genesis in the idea of mounted archers/crossbows, or pseudo-cavalry (the strict mounted infantry-cavalry divide doesn't really work for me in the 15th-16th Centuries).

Medieval hunters did shoot mounted, but were typically stationary when they did so. There is no reason why a mounted man cannot reload a stirrup crossbow, or draw a longbow, in the saddle (and illustrations show individuals doing so). As soldiers supplied their own mounts, these were relatively wealthy 'Yeomen' horse-owners too, rather than the popular image of peasant footmen given nags to aid mobility. Certainly French Ordonnance Archers at this time were almost wholly 'gentry' as well.  

That being said I'm not making a case for English horse archers here, but in a scout-raid-skirmish type game, I would expect that an archer capable of shooting from the saddle would not dismount to shoot unless he really had to (as appears to be the case with Anglo-Scots border warfare) and indeed would not surrender his mounted advantage at hand strokes either. So a move or shoot option would seem wise... or Charlie's suggestion of half-move and half-shoot. The concept of dismounting units of six 'mounted sergeant' archers, as a unit of six Bidowers, would also seem to match the 'skirmish' context best too.

As a 'battle unit' however, I would expect them to be already dismounted, whether they were to 'shoot-in' their men at arms, or were formed as part of the battle line. From a practical point of view, balancing the points cost of 2x6 mounted sergeants, versus 1x12 foot archers might be problematic on top of that. I can't see a 'unit' making useful mounted fire in the same way as an individual horseman could.  

Dismounting and drawing a bow, or spanning a crossbow, would take very little time at all in game terms, so half-move/half-shoot works here; or indeed dismounting at the start of a 'shooting turn', or at the end of a 'moving turn', wouldn't really cause a modifier to either (bearing in mind the other shooting rules are somewhat abstract too, i.e. the hard and fast 'half casualties - half dice' mechanic).  

Given that you are looking at a rule that will actually impact fairly evenly on the French, Imperialists and English, who are the only combatants in your scenario, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and you don't have to worry about whether any rule would be fair to another army you'll never fight.

Offline Codsticker

  • Supporting Adventurer
  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • *
  • Posts: 2777
    • Kodsticklerburg: A Mordheim project
Re: Dragoons in Lion Rampant
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2016, 06:14:50 PM »
Excellent post Arlequin. Illustrates the challenges in boiling down function into rules/a rule that is both accurate and simple.

Offline Arlequín

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 6218
  • Culpame de la Bossa Nova...
Re: Dragoons in Lion Rampant
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2016, 07:50:58 PM »
Thanks! One of the things I like about LR is its simplicity and I imagine that fans of the rules want to retain that aspect.

Stuart's train of thought is pretty much the way I would be thinking and certainly 'tweaks' are always better than 'new rules'. 

He's read up on this far more than I have, but to me the Stradiots (and the Jinetes) are the 'new thing' in terms of Early 16th Century Warfare, actual proper light cavalry; rather than lightly-armoured men on horseback who preferred looting to fighting. Border Horse had existed for a while, alongside other horsemen (particularly Wales, Dartmoor and other 'poor' or barren areas), without anybody thinking they were special, or even that useful. In the Wars of the Roses you have Scurriers and Prickers, and before that Hobilars; all useful, but nothing special. Along come the Stradiots and this all changes.

I can't help thinking it was almost a case of the canny Borderers jumping on the bandwagon and modifying their 'natural' mode of warfare to offer a homegrown 'bootleg' alternative to the Stradiots. Alternatively I can imagine Henry thinking that those Northern Monkeys might finally be of some actual use to him beyond fighting their Scots cousins.   

 ;)

Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 844
    • Army Royal
Re: Dragoons in Lion Rampant
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2016, 08:10:15 PM »
its interesting as border warfare starts on a new chapter around this point so I can see why they could certainly put up a fight to the stradiots. In the 1513 campaign they were noted by a foreign observer as fighting in the Albanian fashion, exactly what that meant is rather vague but it certainly suggests a body of men used to fighting from the saddle. Perhaps an ability that made them good candidates to fight in Ireland throughout the Tudor period?

Online Charlie_

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1370
Re: Dragoons in Lion Rampant
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2016, 08:28:45 PM »
It's a very interesting subject, one I'd love to learn more about.

Any good books you could recommend?

Offline Stuart

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 844
    • Army Royal
Re: Dragoons in Lion Rampant
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2016, 08:43:47 PM »
On Border Reivers?

Online Charlie_

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1370
Re: Dragoons in Lion Rampant
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2016, 09:03:09 PM »
Anglo-scottish border warfare in general, but in particular the 14th, 15th and early 16th century. I just read the Osprey campaign series books on Falkirk & Stirling Bridge, Bannockburn and then Flodden. I'd love to know more about the border conflicts in the 200 years between Bannockburn and Flodden. And more about these 'border horse' chaps. Though my interest dwindles the later into the 16th century we go.

Flodden and the surrounding conflicts does seem like a great subject for wargaming. You could make do with a 'wars of the roses' range of figures with a little bit of renaissance 'flash' starting to appear... Lots of small skirmishes and raids with the odd big battle....

EDIT - sorry if I am hijacking your thread!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 09:10:08 PM by Charlie_ »

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
8 Replies
5535 Views
Last post July 11, 2016, 07:58:08 AM
by sukhe_bator
4 Replies
2341 Views
Last post November 23, 2015, 09:17:40 AM
by Atheling
2 Replies
1781 Views
Last post December 26, 2015, 10:22:14 PM
by Harry Faversham
7 Replies
2841 Views
Last post April 01, 2016, 10:42:02 PM
by Belisarius
11 Replies
5026 Views
Last post July 21, 2016, 10:24:20 PM
by jamesmanto