Ideas for interesting 1450-1500 projects?

[bluechi]

Its really difficult to get good Informationens about history and wars in germany or the holy roman empire german nation. Would not be popular in english....only ww1 and ww2...and that in mass. In wiki the informations are really a short cut from the german illustration. Altough really interesting are the swiss war between end 1400 to 1500....many small wars with milan, habsburgian and with them selves. But by the way...in english wiki...not really usefull.

[Charlie_]

Lots of interesting ideas here people, thanks for chiming in.

I've been thinking this over a lot, and have I think narrowed it down a bit....

(Bear in mind that I currently have a collection of close to 200 infantry, roughly 50/50 longbows and polearms, some in livery colours but most of them not. It would obviously be good to use as many of these as possibly rather than starting from scratch again!)

First of all I think I'm going to forget about WOTR, at least as the primary focus. I would feel the need to do things realistically, which means the forces would be pretty much just bows, bills and men-at-arms, mostly bows... lots and lots of bows.... And I'm itching to paint up something else. I have enough bows for now. Also, I would want to put them in livery coats, which most of mine are currently without. And most importantly, I think the idea of two rival families fighting out their own private war over and over again for every game, might get stale quite quickly....

I'm also going to quickly discount the Scottish border, simply because I feel that would be more suited to mounted raids and such, and I don't want to just do cavalry. Could be fun as a diversion though for little skirmishes using cavalry models from the main project.


Now, I've been REALLY tempted to do the last year of the Hundred Years War. The English being driven out of France, focusing on small skirmishes as my band of brothers are separated from their countrymen and are desperately trying to fight off all these angry Frenchmen. I am really keen to paint up some English in white jackets with the cross of St George, and French with the cross of St Michel.... But this will mean pretty much starting an entirely new collection, and painting up masses of longbowmen again. And again, the scenario of an English company fighting their way through a hostile France might get boring after a while. So I think reluctantly this idea will have to be put aside for now.... But hey, I might return to it sometime in the future... Perhaps not as a gaming collection, but just some display pieces or dioramas???


So that leaves us with an englishman abroad, which I think has got to be the winner. Basically the adventures of a mercenary company. Here's what this idea has in its favour...

- It won't be geographically limited to any one place, or any one time. 'Europe 1450-1500' is good enough.
- The forces can be always changing. My mercenary company can quite easily consist of entirely different troops from one game to the next.
- I can make up a fun character for my mercenary captain, and have fun designing heraldry.
- If his company is based around a core of english longbowmen, I already have them covered. And they won't need to be wearing livery jackets or the cross of St George, so my 'multicoloured' longbowmen will work just fine.
- The army composition can be creative, and not really restricted by history. I have lots of troops will polearms I can use to make some big blocks.... these perhaps wouldn't really have a place in a HYW or WOTR army.
- I can have fun painting up some Italians and Swiss. They can either be foes to fight, or other mercenaries to hire into the company.
- I won't be limited to bows and bills. Pikes, handguns, crossbows, whatever I want. (As a side-note, as I've so far been doing this for Game Of Thrones, that has meant no gunpowder... I'm keen to paint up some handgunners and artillery!)
- Other future mini-projects can be used as opponents to fight. A small Burgundian force, or French Ordonnance, for example....

Having just written that out, I think I've definitely persuaded myself this is the way to go....

Keep the ideas coming though, I'd love to hear more places for my mercenaries to go and fight in! I definitely need to read up some more about the German conflicts some of you have mentioned.

Also... Does anyone have information about English mercenaries in the latter half of the century? I might be wrong, but aren't most of the accounts of English free companies earlier in the century, or in the 1300s? Are there examples post-HYW?

[commissarmoody]

Not bad, then they can fight in Italy, Spain in the reconquest Or help with and against the Turks. Oh fight in Constantinople and the last fight is them escaping to the docks to get a ship before the whole city falls.

[dbsubashi]

If you are willing to add a little alternate history, a young English lord and his followers can visit all of Europe and beyond. During the WOTR, Endland went to war with the Hanse, giving scope to licensed piracy and for you, coastal actions in Denmark, Sweden, Germany and Russia. Perhaps your Lord leads a small flotilla, and raids the Baltic, allying with/fighting against Russian princes, The Teutonic order, and various Hanse city states. Looking west, England almost went to war with Norway over trading with Iceland. Historically, they allied to fight the Hanse. But perhaps you can lead raids against Norway or invade Iceland! Or perhaps beyond! After success in Iceland, who is to say your lord, led by Icelandic sailors, didn't visit Greenland, or go as far as Vinland? Skrealings versus bill and longbow?

Looking south, many lords left England for the safety of France during the back and forth of the WOTR. Now you can ally with the French crown, or one of his brothers/cousins. Will he aid in the liberation of Marseilles? Help with the Italian Wars? Leave France and insinuate himself with Spanish and the last stages of the Reconquesta? Perhaps he signs on as a mercenary aboard the various Christian navies, allowing for coastal raids in Spain, Sicily, Italy, and beyond. He could follow in the footsteps of Tyrone Power, dabble in Italian intrigues ala Prince of Foxes, before going The Black Rose route to Constantinople, the highlands of Asia, then to China! Or down to invade India. Will your lord play fast and loose with various Indian princes, switching sides as needed to gain land and riches, to take back to England and restore his family name? Can a small force of hardened mercenaries, armed with bills, longbows and a few small cannon and their allied Circassian/Afghan cavalry take on war elephants and all the various but colorful armies of India? Is the world ready for the Great Mutiny, 1447?

Truly, with a bit of imagination and bluff, the whole world is open to your lord and his (potentially) mercenary band. All you need is some gullible but enthusiastic gaming buddies, and perhaps an opposing force... 

[commissarmoody]

Right? All the things he said. If your looking for ship ideas check out some of the ideas near the end of of page four in this thread.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=20752.30


And for the north seas. http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/products.asp?cat=387

[dbsubashi]

I am building (slowly) Thomas cogs, and am hunting for a reasonably facsimile (in both price and size) for late period war galleys. Something perfect for both the Mediterranean and Spanish/French Bay of Biscay/Channel warfare. And for GoT!

[commissarmoody]

I am building (slowly) Thomas cogs, and am hunting for a reasonably facsimile (in both price and size) for late period war galleys. Something perfect for both the Mediterranean and Spanish/French Bay of Biscay/Channel warfare. And for GoT!

Not to hijack the post but, Thomas cogs? Is that a company or brand?

[painterman]

I'm liking all your ideas - plenty of scope.

Re any 'Englishmen abroad' in this period - the closest may have been Edward Woodville (so called Lord Scales), who campaigned in Spain against Moors and in Brittany in 1480s (where he died). See more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Woodville,_Lord_Scales

Looking forward to seeing what you do.
Simon.

"Thomas Cogs" by the way - are Zvedza plastic kit of 'Thomas', which scale nicely for 28mm figures.

[commissarmoody]

A quick search shows the "Tomas" as a 1/72 scale kit. Ship must have been massive in real life to hold all those 28mm figs I see on the decks.

[bluechi]

With french , english bows and meccenaries and some swiss you could play "battle of sankt jakob at the birs" if you want it some historical setting. Many many options.

[Arlequín]

Lord Scales is the most famous one, but there were others.

John Fox led a 'company' of 16 archers and some 50 or so Ghent Militia at Gavere in 1453. He apparently surrendered the 'Waterbusch' (a fort watching over the river) to Duke Phillip and escaped with his life, while the garrison was hung. He apparently then led a relieving force of militia from Ghent into a trap set by the duke. True story, maybe...

Edward IV gave leave for Duke Charles to recruit freely from his army in 1475, there were something like 16 independent 'companies' (i.e. 100 men) of English archers recruited into the Burgundian Army. Sir John Middleton was apparently the commander of an entire ordonnance company composed of Englishmen (so 100 MatA, 100 Coutilier, 200 Mtd Archers, 300 'foot' - probably all archers) and there may have been another 'English Company'. Sir John Parre and Sir Thomas Everingham were subordinates or contemporaries and all survived the Battle of Nancy. A John Turnbull was apparently a captain of archers and managed to extricate 34 out of 100 men from the same battle.

The survivors of Nancy made it back to the Burgundian Netherlands over a matter of months, by which point the French had taken over most of Picardy and Artois. Some English undoubtedly stay on in Burgundian service, but others would seem to have gone home where they were able.

Sir Thomas Everingham pops up again in 1478 where he is serving under Lord Hastings at Calais. He was either given leave to serve, or deserted from Calais the same year and led 100 English archers in the service of Duchess Marie of Burgundy. By 1479 he had gathered 300 archers to his colours, which fought at the Battle of Guinegate.

In 1480 at the request of the Dowager Duchess Margaret, he embarked on a recruitment campaign with the consent of Edward IV, who authorised some 6,000 archers to be recruited within England. Everingham was permitted to recruit petty criminals from local gaols, barring those having committed capital crimes (a wide brush in 1480). An initial draft led once more by Sir John Middleton, assisted by both Everingham and Sir John Dichefield, and consisting of 30 'lances' and 1,500 archers are accepted into Burgundian service by DD Margaret in August 1480. Whether the 6,000 were ever realised is difficult to say, but there appears to be no record of them.

There were a flurry of desertions from the Calais Garrison around 1485, with some 3-400 men at one time going 'over the wall' and into Burgundian service in late August 1485.

In Henry VII's time, English service seems to have been more as allied contingents, with English troops serving with the Empire. An English force of 1,000 from Calais, along with a contingent of some 500 Germans and Swiss, lifted the Siege of Diksmuide in 1489. One of the leaders, Lord Morley, gained the distinction of being the first recorded English casualty of the arquebus.

So with stuff like that all going on, there is certainly scope for imagining a colourful career for a soldier of fortune. There is certainly no reason why numbers shouldn't be made up from 'foreign troops' either; so having a squad of Italian or German arquebusier to make up for losses of archers etc, would be valid, as would misinterpretation of orders too.

 

[Charlie_]

Lord Scales is the most famous one, but there were others.

John Fox led a 'company' of 16 archers and some 50 or so Ghent Militia at Gavere in 1453. He apparently surrendered the 'Waterbusch' (a fort watching over the river) to Duke Phillip and escaped with his life, while the garrison was hung. He apparently then led a relieving force of militia from Ghent into a trap set by the duke. True story, maybe...

Edward IV gave leave for Duke Charles to recruit freely from his army in 1475, there were something like 16 independent 'companies' (i.e. 100 men) of English archers recruited into the Burgundian Army. Sir John Middleton was apparently the commander of an entire ordonnance company composed of Englishmen (so 100 MatA, 100 Coutilier, 200 Mtd Archers, 300 'foot' - probably all archers) and there may have been another 'English Company'. Sir John Parre and Sir Thomas Everingham were subordinates or contemporaries and all survived the Battle of Nancy. A John Turnbull was apparently a captain of archers and managed to extricate 34 out of 100 men from the same battle.

The survivors of Nancy made it back to the Burgundian Netherlands over a matter of months, by which point the French had taken over most of Picardy and Artois. Some English undoubtedly stay on in Burgundian service, but others would seem to have gone home where they were able.

Sir Thomas Everingham pops up again in 1478 where he is serving under Lord Hastings at Calais. He was either given leave to serve, or deserted from Calais the same year and led 100 English archers in the service of Duchess Marie of Burgundy. By 1479 he had gathered 300 archers to his colours, which fought at the Battle of Guinegate.

In 1480 at the request of the Dowager Duchess Margaret, he embarked on a recruitment campaign with the consent of Edward IV, who authorised some 6,000 archers to be recruited within England. Everingham was permitted to recruit petty criminals from local gaols, barring those having committed capital crimes (a wide brush in 1480). An initial draft led once more by Sir John Middleton, assisted by both Everingham and Sir John Dichefield, and consisting of 30 'lances' and 1,500 archers are accepted into Burgundian service by DD Margaret in August 1480. Whether the 6,000 were ever realised is difficult to say, but there appears to be no record of them.

There were a flurry of desertions from the Calais Garrison around 1485, with some 3-400 men at one time going 'over the wall' and into Burgundian service in late August 1485.

In Henry VII's time, English service seems to have been more as allied contingents, with English troops serving with the Empire. An English force of 1,000 from Calais, along with a contingent of some 500 Germans and Swiss, lifted the Siege of Diksmuide in 1489. One of the leaders, Lord Morley, gained the distinction of being the first recorded English casualty of the arquebus.

So with stuff like that all going on, there is certainly scope for imagining a colourful career for a soldier of fortune. There is certainly no reason why numbers shouldn't be made up from 'foreign troops' either; so having a squad of Italian or German arquebusier to make up for losses of archers etc, would be valid, as would misinterpretation of orders too.

 

£xcellent, that all sounds like good stuff!

What do you think would be appropriate for flags? Would English mercenaries be likely to have the cross of St George, when fighting for other nations? Did the English ever actually have a flag with just the cross itself and nothing else?
Being a unique mercenary company I have freedom to do what I want.... I'm thinking I'll have the captain's personal standard bearer with his own coat of arms, plus a company banner, and smaller ones for individual units. Might be nice to have the St George cross incorporated in somewhere...

[Arlequín]

You didn't have to quote all of me y'know.  

 

Okay the deal with standards, as I understand it at least, is that the Cross of St. George (or St. Andrew, St. Denis or whoever), would only be flown/worn when in Royal (or Ducal) service. To fly or wear it otherwise would be treason.

So English archers in Burgundian service would wear a Burgundian cross (in a colour that stood out against their livery coats). English archers in English service, but serving with Burgundian forces would wear the Cross of St. George, either as a small badge on their livery jackets, or the archetypal white tabard with red cross.

As for the standard, some commanders were not 'noble' and so did not have badges and liveries, nor the livery standard with the St George cross in the hoist. These may or may not have had a coat of arms, but would have a banner with them if they did. As a company standard however, a large white flag with a St. George's Cross does the job, as would be the case  for the next century or so.

All that being said, the 'English style' Cross of St. George on a white field was also the badge of almost all the 'crossbow guilds' in Flanders and Brabant, so were far from uncommon even if there were no English around.      

I would imagine that if a guy set up 'the Company of St. George' and took the English flag as the field of the standard, I doubt the King of England (or Genoa, or half a dozen other Italian states) could go all GW on him and bust him for IP infringement or anything. Might raise an eyebrow or too, but that's it really.

Oddly there is a modern day re-enactment group called the Company of Saynt George: http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms/intro.html      

[Patrice]

As Painterman mentioned, a group of Englishmen from the Isle of Wight under Lord Scales came to help the Bretons in 1488 and took part in the battle of St. Aubin du Cormier, the last battle between Brittany and France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saint-Aubin-du-Cormier_(1488)

Technically they were not mercenaries, they were wearing the cross of St. George. Breton troops wore a black cross in the late 15th century but some of the Breton longbowmen also did wear a red cross in this battle because they knew that the French feared the English longbowmen (...but it resulted in them being killed without mercy in the defeat because the French hated the English longbowmen...)

If you don't want to play big battles you can imagine some small skirmishes in Brittany just before or around this battle.

[commissarmoody]

Have a company standard and then extra standards to show who they are working for that day!