Unofficial 40K Weapons Table for Rogue Stars - Draft

[Genghis]

I've only had the chance to play a few games of Rogue Stars, and I've enjoyed it and think it's a good game.  However, I like my sci-fi skirmishing to be (broadly) set within the 40K mythos, and the Rogue Stars weapon selection doesn't necessarily translate too well into 40K.  These draft weapons stats & rules are an attempt to translate 40K weapons into Rogue Stars.  I've started with what I deem to be the main Imperial weapons that would be readily(ish) available, but there is probably scope to expand this (including xenos weapons) in the future.  I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions to either improve, or validate it as is.



Notes

Starting point: the assault rifle (AKA autogun) shouldn’t be at the top end of weapons.  In order to allow other weapons to be better without escalating the dmg too far, the autogun therefore needs a nerf relative to the AR.

In order to make heavier, sustained fire weapons better relative to the AR/SMG, I’m reserving Hail of Fire for weapons that get multiple shots in 40K (used to have sustained fire dice), ie Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers.

With a nerfed AR, the other weapons need adjusting down accordingly (pistols/SMGs).

I envisage the high dmg weapons like Bolters, Plasma & Power Weapons being relatively uncommon; there’s a degree of trust in people playing the narrative here & not seeking the heaviest weapons to power game.

I’m not sure if the Class column is really appropriate – if we’re 40Kifying the setting, then I’m guessing the themes provided in the book won’t really fit, so we’re into the realms of doing what feels right (& fluffy) amongst consenting adults, in which case is Class is kinda irrelevant?

Not sure if the autopistol should be dmg 3 or 4?  If dmg 3, how to distinguish it from the stub gun?  I’m thinking maybe dmg 4 to represent the increased rate of fire Vs the stub gun, but it then outclasses the laspistol & leaves nowhere for the Naval Pistol to go…

The Autogun encompasses both automatic assault rifle type weapons and heavier calibre bolt action/semi auto rifles, the reduced rate of fire is balanced out by the heavier calibre.  Do we need a lower calibre dmg 3 bolt action/semi-auto rifle?

Flamers – do they need an area of effect and/or a plus to hit?

Force weapons cannot be built in – a psyker needs to be holding their weapon to channel their power.

Brutal Recoil.  Unless a character is Big, Huge, or wearing power armour or an exoskeleton, they are at -2 to hit with this weapon.  Diminutive characters cannot use this weapon.

Force.  A character may attempt to add their Psionic Master level to this weapon’s damage.  This requires a TN10 Psionic test that does not suffer the -3 modifier for being in melee.

Suppressor.  4XP  Makes the weapon Silent.  Can only be fitted to the following weapons: Stub Pistol, Auto Pistol, Autogun,

Strong.  3XP  Allows the character to fire Brutal Recoil weapons without the -2 to hit penalty.  Is there any mileage in also allowing this trait to add +1 dmg to melee attacks (I'd up the XP cost in that case)?

[Steelwraith]

Looks very interesting, and gives me an excuse to use my 40k figs (of which I have large amounts of). If you're adding Xenos gear, I would suggest the Orks, Eldar (Craftworld or Dark), and the Tyranids. I would love to set a small pack of Genestealers loose on a crew of Star Cops.

[Genghis]

I've got some initial thoughts on a bit of Ork & Eldar weaponry, but don't really know Dark Eldar or 'Nids.

[Name/Dmg/XP/Built-in XP/Rules]

Slugga/4/4/6/Short-range, Inaccurate
Shoota/5/6/8/2H, Inaccurate
'Eavy Shoota/6/9/11/2H, Heavy, Automatic, Inaccurate
Shuriken Pistol/4/7/9/Automatic, Short-Range, Max Range 12"
Shuriken Catapult/5/8/10/2H, Automatic, Short-Range, Max Range 18"

I've also added a monomolecular-edged sword at dmg 3 for 4XP (5 built in).

A bit of further feedback on Facebook hasn't violently disagreed with my approach, so you could probably take these as baselines to compare against other 40K weapons you wanted to add.  (I think the key aspect to this approach has been to tone down the assault rifle as the equivalent of the Autogun.)

[Karadek]

The bolters seem overpowered to me.  I'd make them damage 5.  A heavy bolter could be damage 6.  Bolters, bolt pistols, and storm bolters are still just 4 strength in 40K, same as shuriken catapults and only one more than lasguns. 

[rexscarlet]

Fun.
What (40K and Necromunda) forget constantly is that many Pistols, SMGs, Assault Rifles, LMGs, etc. use the same size/caliber/gauge bullets, as well as HMG, Heavy AR, etc. Same bullet, but the longer the barrel the better accuracy and consistent damage (velocity and energy) at longer ranges. 40K likes to make rules, where there are none needed. Shootas, Bolters, Las, stub, shuriken, etc. soooooo many, why?
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Everything in 40K that is not a Bolter falls here, including Laser Weapons really.
Example, Keep It Simple;
Light Damage; 9mm, .45 caliber for;
Stub Gun Pistol (Revolver or Semi Auto Pistols)
Auto Pistol (SMGs)
Medium Damage; 5.56mm/.223 caliber for;
Stub Rifle (Assault Rifles)
Heavy Stubber (LMG)(Full Auto)(same bullet as AR, so same damage) (I do not think a SAW is Heavy compared to Heavy ARs In Real Life)
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Now, Bolt Weapons.
Heavy Damage; 7.62mm/.308 caliber;
Bolt Pistol (PTR 51P PDW .308 PISTOL)
Bolter (Heavy AR)
Storm Bolter (Full Auto)(Heavy)
Heavy Bolter (HMG)(Full Auto)(Heavy)
(same bullets, so same damage, but longer barrels should have a longer range)
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Or just use Necromunda charts;
http://www.gamingcorner.nl/downloads/necromunda_weaponssum.pdf
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Your chart is great so far!

[Steelwraith]

You are correct, sir. An M-249 SAW uses the exact same round as the AR-15 or M-4, namely the standard SS.109, 5.56mm. Heck, the SAW can even use the clips from those weapons as well. Where the SAW shines is simply the sheer volume of firepower it throws downrange, but it really serves the same purpose as the BAR, the Bren or the Lewis gun did, namely providing a base of fire for a squad.

GW is infamous for piling on rules where none are needed, and the current 40k ruleset is proof of that. Thankfully, they are addressing that in the next edition... at least I hope so.

[Genghis]

The bolters seem overpowered to me.  I'd make them damage 5.  A heavy bolter could be damage 6.  Bolters, bolt pistols, and storm bolters are still just 4 strength in 40K, same as shuriken catapults and only one more than lasguns. 

Yes, bolters are only one strength more than las/autoguns in 40K, but that is on a base 6 scale, whereas RS is on a base 20 scale (so there's probably an argument that 1 point of difference in 40K = 3 points of difference in RS, albeit the different damage mechanisms mean it's not an exact comparison).  In the fluff, bolters are a powerful weapon system that massively outclasses las/autoguns, hence I went for dmg 6.  Interestingly, on Facebook, someone suggested the following for bolters: "Bolter 5 Self Accelerating, Stun, Brutal, Two handed.  Brutal - Causes an additional wound token when ever it causes a wound token"  I like that as a bit more subtle than the basic dmg increase I went with, although I'd keep my Brutal Recoil rule.  Personally, I really don't see heavy bolters in RS (in fact, I barely see bolters/bolt pistols, maybe one in a squad with good narrative justification, otherwise they're more of a GM's toolbox type weapon).

@Rexscarlet/Steelwraith:

Good points.  I think there is a case for granting increased S/dmg as an abstraction to cover the effect of a higher rate of fire (hence my side comment about the Autogun stats also covering heavier calibre semi/bolt action rifles).  In particular for LMGs, where rulesets don't cover suppressive fire, higher damage is a reasonable abstraction.

In that spirit, maybe I should break the heavy stubber into LMG (5.56 NATO), MMG (7.62 NATO) & HMG (.50 cal)?
    LMG is dmg4, automatic but not heavy. 
    MMG is the heavy stubber as is in the table. 
    HMG goes up to dmg6, but with increased restrictions on its portability (2-man lift tripod mount, unless big/huge/power-armoured/exo-skeleton).

I think your thoughts have swung me against giving autopistols dmg4, so that leaves me looking for a way to distinguish them from stub guns.  I'm a little wary of dishing out automatic for autopistols, I wanted to keep automatic quite special. How about representing a long burst with the option to gain a bonus to hit, but at the cost of an increased chance of emptying the magazine?  How about +2 to hit, but a roll of 2 or 3 results in an empty mag (roll of 1 is a critical failure as normal?  (Autoguns could also get the same rule, and maybe lasguns?)

[Dr Mathias]

Looks interesting.

I agree that 40K has too many weapons now, it's pretty ridiculous. Orks use bolters (or equivalent) as far as I'm concerned.

Webbers are just using the equivalent profile in the book?

[rexscarlet]

@Rexscarlet/Steelwraith:
    LMG is dmg4, automatic but not heavy. 
    MMG is the heavy stubber as is in the table. 
    HMG goes up to dmg6, but with increased restrictions on its portability
(2-man lift tripod mount, unless big/huge/power-armoured/exo-skeleton)
.
against giving autopistols dmg4, so that leaves me looking for a way to distinguish them from stub guns.
How about representing a long burst with the option to gain a bonus to hit, but at the cost of an increased chance of emptying the magazine?  How about +2 to hit, but a roll of 2 or 3 results in an empty mag (roll of 1 is a critical failure as normal?  (Autoguns could also get the same rule, and maybe lasguns?)

Cool, HMG .50 cal or Vehicle, Tripod mounted weapons, I left out, since RS is small scale skirmish. Maybe in RS the .50 cal or above will be against the Geneva Space Convention rules to shoot persons with
.
Auto Pistol, dam 3, short range, Automatic fire (bonus to hit, then empty magazine and needs to be reloaded) or no bonus to hit (fired as normal).
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"Super Short" Pistol Length Barrel Full Auto Pistols come in many models;
Mac-10, Uzi, MP5, Scorpion, Robo-Cop Beretta, Glock, etc. 32 rounds in less than a second, exactly what they are designed for, point blank room clearing.
Longer Barrel Butt-Stock Rifle versions of the above exist, but would be in a different category, and would give more options on accuracy, rate of fire, etc. But again K.I.S. and keep Rifle Versions just the AR 5.56 idea.
.
Now go see John Wick 2 and assume that if he shows up, your gang is over.

Did the Necromunda chart help?

[Genghis]

Cool, HMG .50 cal or Vehicle, Tripod mounted weapons, I left out, since RS is small scale skirmish. Maybe in RS the .50 cal or above will be against the Geneva Space Convention rules to shoot persons with

Agree, I'm thinking that's more of a GM scenario-led weapon than something for a squad to routinely run with.

Auto Pistol, dam 3, short range, Automatic fire (bonus to hit, then empty magazine and needs to be reloaded) or no bonus to hit (fired as normal).

I like it.  To avoid confusion with the official "Automatic" rule, I might call it "Beirut Unload" that gives a +2 to hit at targets up to 6" away, but you must then spend an action reloading.  I think this should also be applicable to autoguns and lasguns.  (In 40K terms, I think the larger SMGs with stocks & longer barrels fit comfortably enough in the Autogun bracket, otherwise things start getting complicated.)

My thinking was guided to a certain extent by the 2nd Ed/Necroumunda weapon stats as a guideline.

[rexscarlet]

My thinking was guided to a certain extent by the 2nd Ed/Necromunda weapon stats as a guideline.

Very cool, it should run smoothly, RS has tons of potential.
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Power Armor used to spoil games in 40K 1e Rogue Trader, Primitive Weapons had a plus+ to the save roll not a minus like other weapons and were really weak and/or PA was immune to them, etc. if I remember correctly.
I believe we had a House Rule of maximum a Toughness on Models, and that if the Primitive Weapon rolled a natural six to Hit it negated the plus+ or immune modifiers (Space Marine models were always running around Helmet-less was our rationale )
Something like that.
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A great scenario to try out your rules is to have several players kit out a single Power Armor Guy (Maximum points of course), then put them in the middle of the table, and send in waves of whatever on autopilot, enemy moves until in range, then takes cover and fires, until a certain number of enemy are within a certain distance, they feel embolden and will advance closer, etc. from random table edges, or pop up randomly out of the Sewers, jump out of Trees, etc., increasing the number every turn, see how long players survive and how well your rules work.
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Look forward to Bat Rep of your game!

[Genghis]

That's a great idea for a scenario, although implementing it will require me to make/paint some Space Marines (I want to convert some true scale Marines for skirmish gaming with) and a horde of goons to die under their guns.  Given the amount of time left before Her Majesty sends me to the Middle East, that's unlikely to happen this year.  Maybe next year though...

[rexscarlet]

Kobayashi Maru.
Always a good game.
Zulu Dawn Movie (Battle of Isandlwana)
55 Days at Peking Movie (Boxer Rebellion).
AlienS Movie (Reactor Room)
etc.
.
For quick paint up fodder, you can find squads of GW plastic Chaos Custists from the DV box set for pennies online, same goes with the GW Demons, the Gods that suck in the Game, which changes every edition and Codex.
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/dark-vengeance-cultists
.
Have fun in the Sandbox.

[Genghis]

Funnily enough I've just dug out my old (pretty much unused) Dark Vengeance box to get the cultists for use as anonymous henchmen.

Have fun in the Sandbox.

Cheers, will do.