questions about 15th Cen Byzantines.

[commissarmoody]

Ok say I was to look into doing a 15th Century Byzantine force. What would they look like? What would be a good proxy for figs if no one makes them? etc
Would taking some of the Fireforge sergeants/ armored Russ combined with some Perry 15th cent arms and helms do the trick?

[commissarmoody]

Thank you Humakt of the Hills how goes the fight against the Red Emperor and his Lunar scum?

Yeah pretty much my goal is to have a least a passable playable skirmish force to be foes or allies of a Condottiere I am looking at making.

[aphillathehun]

Try to get your hands on vol 2 of Armies of the Middle Ages.  Vol 1 is available on scribd I believe, so perhaps vol 2 is as well.  I believe it's pretty expensive if you buy it second hand these days.

I believe what was left of Byzantium at this stage was cobbling together all kinds of different troops.  The "native Byzantines" if such an expression really applies had a unique look that I don't believe anyone makes troops for.  But there would be a lot of Eastern european troop types in Byzantine service.

[Arlequín]

I would imagine the Osprey 'Byzantine Armies 1118-1461' and 'Constantinople 1453' volumes might provide some of what you are looking for. I even believe the Varangian Guard still existed in some form. Besides the indigenous troops, there were also adventurers and sailors from elsewhere in Europe, of which Italians formed the greater part.

IIRC the 'Byzantine Empire' in the 15th Century was reduced to the peninsula Constantinople stood on (but was otherwise surrounded by the Ottomans) and the Peloponnese.

[commissarmoody]

I would imagine the Osprey 'Byzantine Armies 1118-1461' and 'Constantinople 1453' volumes might provide some of what you are looking for. I even believe the Varangian Guard still existed in some form. Besides the indigenous troops, there were also adventurers and sailors from elsewhere in Europe, of which Italians formed the greater part.

IIRC the 'Byzantine Empire' in the 15th Century was reduced to the peninsula Constantinople stood on (but was otherwise surrounded by the Ottomans) and the Peloponnese.

It just so happens that  I found the Osprey "Byzantium at war AD600-1453", 'Byzantine Armies 1118-1461' and "Constantinople 1453" at a local store. Seems Humakts initial estimation was pretty much spot on. So Some Turkic peoples, as Mercenaries and to represent more of the Asian influenced troops. Armored Stadioti who would still be considered light by western standards.
Crossbows formed "Brotherhood" companies and where considered an elite, or at least well practiced. Archers where well represented and along with quite a few handguns would have been seen in the city itself.
Surviving sources from the siege have said that the Byzantine troops wore western European-style amour on the main also. So I think I am good then if I go with a mix of eastern and western/Italian style troops.
The Western representing the Metroplatine army, mercenaries and rich nobles and merchents. The others representing rural troops.

Apparently at least by 1404 the Varangian Guard was comprised almost entirely of English "Axe men" Whether this was a Long hefted Axe or a pole axe it does not say. And it doesn't go into how big the guard was by that time, but does say they no longer seemed to act as an independent unit in the field and acted only in ceremonial duties around the palace and as a direct body guard for the Emperor.
Also according to my book "The Varangian Guard 988-1453" near the end of the Empire the Varangian of mostly comprised of Varangopouloi who where mixed blood decadents of past guardsmen. And its seems that the would not only be armed with Axes, but western style two-handed swords where starting to mix in with their kit.

 

[aphillathehun]

Some of the Perry Italian metals from the European army range out to look pretty much at home in such an army.

[commissarmoody]

My thoughts exactly. Now I need to find or figure out some distinctive Byzantine style icons, graphs and colors for mine.

[FierceKitty]

"decadents"?!

[commissarmoody]

 Sorry Descendents 

[Jericho]

I myself have pondered about doing such a Byzantine army as well.
I was thinking of the armoured stradioti from Perry's and perhaps the Italian mercenary packs as well;
the Hussites from 1st Corps (some of them look like the images from those Ospreys);
Turks, Hungarians & Rumanians from TAG or Old Glory;
and this head set from Studio Siberia.


The first two heads in that set look like this 1438 medaillon of John VIII Palaeologus when he visited Italy.


And there's also this flag from Adolfo Ramos Flags.


Someday I will have made this army as well...

[commissarmoody]

I just ordered some of the heads to test them out. 
I was just reading and it said that it was noted that the Byzantines solders where found of wearing red and into the 114th/15th centery they where commonly seen in green or a combination of the two.
Both the Armored and unarmed stradioti I think would work fine. Also I am looking at some of the perry Crusader line. Some of the Early Turks would work just as well as Eastern style nobles or and horse archers.

[commissarmoody]

Some ideas to barrow (steal) from maybe.
Dalmatian mercs.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=94289.15

Some none specific Eastern/Balkans mercenaries.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=40936.1230

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=40936.1140

[WillieB]

Was there even a Byzantine 'empire' in the 15th Century?
Hadn't it been taken over by the Ottomans by then? Or is that the focus of your gaming - the end of the empire and its wars with the Ottomans?
Anyway.

I don't have a definite answer but they must have some kind of eastern appearance. I would suggest you hunt down some suitable Hungarian ranges from the period. Maybe even some Ottoman mercenaries as well. That's what I would be looking for.
I'm not convinced your suggestion of Fireforge stuff (which is too early - they're more 13th Century) and doing head swaps is really up to the task. Don't Perry also do some Italian merceneries? They may do since they have a bit of flamboyance about them.
If I was you I'd look for later medieval east European figs. Hungarians are likely to be easier to find since they were the most 'active' during the period. But I suspect your pickings will be slim.

Strictly speaking there has never been a Byzantine Empire.  It was called the Roman Empire . The  rather derogatory term 'Byzantines didn't come into 'fashion ' centuries later.
And yes whilst many of the more Western dressed miniatures can be used for a 'Byzantine' setting in the 15th C (especially for the numerous Genoese, Venetian and other mercenaries) the archetypical 'Byzantines' are something else again. High ranking officers tended to wear the same latest Western armour (or slightly earlier one) but often with archaic Roman elements such as pteruges, Attic helmets and moulded cuirasses. Eastern and even Turkish  influences were certainly also found and are illustrated. Big armoured collars, pointed Turkish helmet, mail aventails and such.  It's not that you won't find any figures that can be used for that particular timeframe, the thing is that you probably won't find any with the 'right' combination of arm and armour to represent the 'native' Byzantines.I've always found it remarkable that such a momentous event in world history has gone largely unnoticed by all the miniature manufacturers. Especially since the figures would be really spectacular!

[commissarmoody]

Strictly speaking there has never been a Byzantine Empire.  It was called the Roman Empire . The  rather derogatory term 'Byzantines didn't come into 'fashion ' centuries later.
And yes whilst many of the more Western dressed miniatures can be used for a 'Byzantine' setting in the 15th C (especially for the numerous Genoese, Venetian and other mercenaries) the archetypical 'Byzantines' are something else again. High ranking officers tended to wear the same latest Western armour (or slightly earlier one) but often with archaic Roman elements such as pteruges, Attic helmets and moulded cuirasses. Eastern and even Turkish  influences were certainly also found and are illustrated. Big armoured collars, pointed Turkish helmet, mail aventails and such.  It's not that you won't find any figures that can be used for that particular timeframe, the thing is that you probably won't find any with the 'right' combination of arm and armour to represent the 'native' Byzantines.I've always found it remarkable that such a momentous event in world history has gone largely unnoticed by all the miniature manufacturers. Especially since the figures would be really spectacular!

Oh  I know about that, but like most Byzantine works in the west. I mean I could call them by all the other names they went by and all would be equal right and equal wrong in some form......Its like talking modern politics!   
 So I leaned to keep it simple 
And yes I am running into the same problems you just mentioned. a little right here, a little correct there, but never fully correct. I don't like to be a button counter but I also would like them to be as "correct" as possible....Screw it I'll make Republic of Ragusa instead and have them fight against and with the Turks, Venetians, Hungarians and Serbs. 

[delbruck]

The Perry Italians in the European mercenary range are listed for the period 1450-1500. I am under the impression that armor and clothing styles changed quite  a bit after 1450. In many cases old fashioned armor of the Agincourt period might be more appropriate for western armor in Byzantine armies.