Design Philosophy

[Hawkeye]

Hello all,

Well, I'm relatively new to the forum, and I've really been enjoying looking through all the threads, in particular the ones with photographs of all the magnificent buildings that you guys make for the game. I'm not new to building terrain - I'm a long-time Mordheim player, and have built my fair share of ruined buildings - but inspired by the great work on this forum, I've embarked on some buildings for LOTOW, and I've even painted a few figures.
So, does this mean that you're going to get pictures of said buildings and figures in this post? Well, no, not exactly. I'm keeping those for two separate threads, which I'll put together as soon as I get a lightbox and can take decent photographs of my minis and buildings. Yet another skill I have to learn!
No, the post is about something else - what's your design philosophy when it comes to making your buildings? I'll explain what I mean by this with a quick outline of my own experiences on the three buildings I've made so far, and with my plans for future buildings.

1) Bases: What's the consensus on bases? My tendency (very different from my basing techniques for Mordheim buildings) is to keep the base as close to the edge of the building as possible, in fact, almost flush with it. This means that buildings can be placed flat against each other, side by side, to create a convincing street. It also means that I can add lean-tos and corrals to the sides of buildings to completely change the character of an old, familiar gaming piece. There are exceptions to this 'close to the edge of the base' rule. On the fronts of the buildings I leave a space to build a boardwalk (of course), and on the backs of some of the buildings I sometimes leave a space to have a bit of a dirt yard where barrels, crates, and sacks can be stacked. Cover is always useful! Oh, and basing material of choice for my buildings so far has been thick plasticard, which hasn't warped yet! Almost more importantly, it doesn't take over by being more noticable than the building itself! What do the rest of you do/use? Oh, and if you can buy accessories, where do you get them? I know Old Glory have a few nice ones, but do you know of any other suppliers that do things like that?

2) Doors and windows: This is a tough one. The first building I made followed, almost exactly, the plan laid out in the back of the first LOTOW book. So, no removable roof, and the doors and windows were glued onto the surface of the building, which is basically a box. Looks fine, but of course it doesn't allow for much interaction. So, for my second building, I built another single-storey structure, wider than the LOTOW one, but this time with a removable roof. Much more planning involved here, of course, and when it comes to detailing and painting, much more work, which I'll get back to later. But it seems to me that it will be a piece with much more playability. Thoughts?

3) Bouyed by what I perceived as my success with these two buildings, I tried something more ambitious with my third building - a two-storey building with a removable second storey, a removable roof, and an external staircase. No real problems here, except that I'm having trouble deciding how to do the stairs. It seems to me like it's going to involve a lot of very precise cutting and gluing, which is going to take a LOT of time, so I'm not sure.... Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated. I see Arnica has an 'external staircase' piece, but the Arnica stuff isn't currently available, so no luck there (for the moment, at least).

4) Building materials: At the moment, I'm using foamcore and facing it with weathered/distressed craft sticks, and while it's fiddly and time-consuming, I think it's looking pretty good, and I know that the woodgrain on those craft sticks actually paints up really well. What about the rest of you? What materials do you use, and is there a less time-consuming way? My plan for my next building is a bank, for which I'm going to use a material that I found - the name of which escapes me - which is basically foamcore without the card facing. This means that I can score a brick pattern into it, cover it with a coat of paint to protect it from a spray of GW Roughcoat, and this way create a convincing (I hope!) brick-built bank. I'm thinking that the brick courses, or layers, will be 5mm, and the length of the bricks will be 10mm. Does that sound about right? I know in scale terms it's too big, but in terms of keeping my sanity it's probably about as small as I can go.

5) Detailing: What do you do for detailing interiors? I found a website that has downloadable printable wallpapers for dollhouses which are in the right scale, so I think I'll be using some of that for my interiors, and I also have tiny mirrors that I got at the Hobby store which will be used in some of the interiors as well - particularly to put on the wall behind the bar counter in my saloon (when I build it). Shelving will, of course, simply be craft sticks cut to size and glued to the walls as, well, shelves. Tables I have plans for - GW 40mm round and square bases with dowel legs - but what do you do for the rest of your interior detail? While it's not interior detailing, as such, I really want to be able to open and close the doors of my buildings (at least, the ones with interiors). I've read an account here on the forum of how to do it, but does anybody know of any other way? Just curious about this one. As for windows, on all of my buildings with access to the interiors, they will simply be holes in the walls edged with matchsticks, or the like.

6) External Stairs: How in the hell do you build these? It seems like it's going to be really, really awkward. However, I love the idea of them, and in gaming terms I think they'll really come into their own.

7) Painting plastic: Ok, this is a tough one - or maybe not, if I'm lucky. I secured my Fastlane Western Express train, so I'm looking forward to painting it up (and to taking the tank off one of the carriages and making a mail wagon out of it, as sombody on this thread has done - and done wonderfully, I might add). Here's my question, though. Does any primer work on that plastic, or do you need something specific to get it to stick? I'm wondering the same thing about the ERTL Cow Town buildings, when it comes to painting them, as I managed to score myself a few of those on eBay as well, and I can't wait for them to arrive as they'll more than double my building count!

Saloon: How big do you make your saloons? I know you need a pretty big one to play the LOTOW Bar-room Brawl scenario, but I don't want it taking up the whole board either. Your input and advice on this one would be really appreciated.

And that - for the moment, at least - is about it. Thanks in advance for any feedback, thoughts, ideas, or advice you might have, and I promise, once I've got a lightbox for myself, I'll be posting up pictures to add to this great site. This really is a great community, and I'm delighted to be a part of it.

Hawkeye

p.s. It goes without saying, of course, that there will be outhouses aplenty in my town. I'll get a few from Old Glory, but if any of you know of any other manufacturers who make them, please pass on the details, or, even better, if you know of a quick way to build them, please let me know. You can never have too many outhouses in the Old West...

[leadfool]

One thought for design of the Barroom brawl is to have the actual fight out of the building.  meaning the building and figures are on the table but when the figures enter the sallon, they are transported to another spot, then the fight is played out with aout the walls to block the players hands, line of sight etc. 

Arnica Real Estate used to make outhouses.  The buildings are supposed to now be available from Hawgleg. 
Years ago Ertl made an outhouse as part to their cowtown kit. 

You might also check out some other sets of cowboy rules like flagship games "Gunfight" as they give building suggestions.  There are lots of other rules out there.

One of the best cowboy games I ever played in was based on the premise of not enough outhouses.  12 cowboys, 6 outhouses, one BAD pot of chili.  Lets say it got real ugly real fast.

Have fun

[Hawkeye]

Thanks, Leadfool. There are a lot of good points in your reply.

The bar-room brawl issue is an important one to point out - I had never actually considered it. All I could think of was "How are you supposed to get two (or more!) posses into a gaming building?"

Checking out some other Old West gaming rules is also a good idea, one which had crossed my mind once or twice in the past, but very quickly, and looking both ways... Gutshot was one that I was intrigued by, until I learned that you really only run one or two models in a game. I may still pick up the rules out of curiosity. There was another one that I was desparately trying to remember the name of yesterday, which has shooting charts overlaid over the silhouette of a gunfighter to determine where the shot has landed - perhaps hitting him dead centre, or just winging him, or hitting him in the leg, or something. I've always loved that idea. Might "Gunfight" be the rules I'm thinking of? I'll check it out.

As for outhouses - that scenario idea is pure genius, it really is. I'll definitely be borrowing it once I get an Old West gaming group off the ground here in Kansas (you wouldn't think it would be that hard. I mean, Abilene, Wichita, and Dodge City are all just down the road!). I know I can probably build an outhouse or three without a problem, but for such small pieces, they can really be full of character, so I'd love to pick up a few resin ones as well.

Leadfool, thanks for your response on this one. I do appreciate it. Actually, rereading my original post, I also realized that there was a question about doorways in buildings that I had meant to ask, but it can wait for another time - perhaps when I get pictures of my buildings up. Soon, soon....

Thanks again!

[Wolf 359]

  Hawkeye, since you're up KC way, do you belong to HA-HMGS? I've been thinking about coming up from DFW to attend a Con up that way.

[Hawkeye]

Hi Wolf,

Well, I'm new to the historical wargaming thing, and to Old West gaming in particular, so you'll have to explain some of those acronyms to me! I've been thinking that if there were any Cons local enough to where I'm living, that I would love to go, so any info you have would be greatly appreciated. I actually live in Winfield, about an hour's drive south of Wichita, but I get to KC from time to time - usually to drop into Tabletop Games! Usually, though, I game in a store in Wichita, where Mordheim is our game of choice at the moment - at least until I get enough LOTOW models and buildings ready!
So, at the risk of appearing to be very, very dim, what's HA-HMGS, and what's DFW? If you were thinking of travelling this way for a Con, it's certainly something I'd be interested in, so let me know!
I should probably add that my knowledge of American geography is not as good as it should be, although it's improving. I actually grew up in Ireland, so I can tell you exactly where Tipperary is, or the Cliffs of Moher, or the Giant's Causeway, but I'm still getting the hang of navigating my way around the Midwest!

Hope to hear from you soon!

[Cory]

I have made most of my saloons quite long and narrow - historical but not always good for maneuvering during a game. To address this we have two rules that usually get applied across rule sets.

Take it outside! The bartended and patrons serious about their drinking simply chuck the combatants 1d6 inches out the front door. Roll a 2nd d6 for each, on a 1-2 they go to the left, 4 and 5 straight out, 5 or 6 to the right.

Free for all Roll 1d6 for everyone in the bar and organize them into brawling masses by numbers. If a model has no opponent with the same number they can join the mob 1 up or down. Example: Bob is the only one to roll a 4 so he can join the brawlers that rolled a 3 or the two fellows who rolled a 5. Reroll the mob numbers each turn.

I do find cutting out the windows and doors can help, but I am unsure if opening doors are necessary and my buildings run about 50/50 on the issue. The foam is great and I freely intermix it with wood - regarding bricks I would recommend going with narrower courses, I try for six to eight per inch.

On detailing, a 40mm base is huge. I would use a 25mm base at most. Also, keep the interior details to a minimum. A table is fine and implies what it needs but adding chairs can really clutter up the place. For a saloon I usually just have a few tables, a bar, maybe a piano and of course a spitoon or too.  For a bedroom the bed is enough, maybe a wardrobe. Keep it simple and play will go better.

[archangel1]

Hi, Hawkeye, welcome to the LAF! To answer a couple of your points...

1. Since I'm a modeler rather than a gamer, I'm of the 'no base' or 'minimum base' school, unless I'm doing a vignette or diorama, of course.  I think most building models are probably sturdy enough without requiring much extraneous support.

2.  I don't see much sense in moveable doors.  There'd be enough problems with shifting scenery in the normal run of a game without the added risks inherent with having to open a door every time a figure was required to pass through it.  Windows are always clear, in my case, whether there's an interior or not.  I just prefer the effect.  Removeable roofs/storeys only make sense if it's convenient to have figures actually inside the building.

3. In my case, I'd build the stairs with individual wood strips , even though it is much more work.

4. So far, the Western buildings I've worked on are simply backdrops for some figures but they are built on foamcore with basswood planks.  Here's a link to my original thread with some pics and techniques.

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=6454.msg71524#msg71524

Here's the Gallery link.

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;cat=65;u=1266

I've learned since I started that thread that spray glue is not the best way to apply the printed patterns.  It started to lift in a couple of spots on the Livery and I had to reglue some planking with full strength glue.  So far I've avoided doing brick or stone but it'll show up eventually.  

(Before anyone asks, no, I haven't finished them yet.  I'm too easily distracted.  They are sitting on my workbench, though, staring at me accusingly every time I work on something else!)

5. Haven't got that far yet!  

6. Like I mentioned above, I'd build them from scratch.  Just looks better, in my opinion.

7. Not having much experience with large amounts of what I assume is polyethylene, I can't recommend a primer.  I would assume that something like auto primer would work.  Styrene will take any primer.

If you need some good examples of Western buildings, you can't go too wrong by looking at Eric Hotz' site.  I've got all his sets and there's lots of inspiration and some free samples. Plenty of outhouses, too!  

http://www.erichotz.com/whitewash.html

Cheers,

Mike

[Hawkeye]

Thanks, Cory and Archangel, for your responses - very helpful!

Cory - the "Take it Outside" rule is inspired, and would certainly help a lot. I was looking at the suggestions for terrain for the scenario in the LOTOW rulebook, and they suggest a saloon measuring 18" by 18". I read that and thought to myself - "That's insane. Utterly, utterly insane. That's almost the whole table!" My largest building to date is 6" by 4.5", and that's already big.

Based on this, I think you're right about the table sizes, of course. A 40mm square table would be HUGE. 25mm will do the trick, and I have plenty of GW 25mm bases lying about. I had suspected what you suggested - the chairs just aren't necessary. I do, however, when I build the saloon, want to have a nice saloon counter and so on. I've been looking at the Old Glory saloon set, and that's what I'll probably pick up eventually when I get around to building the saloon.

As for doors and windows - it's a tough one, isn't it? For my buildings with interiors, I'm really leaning towards having all the windows cut out, simply so that models can see from the inside out, and from the outside in. Should make for some nice shootouts! In terms of the doors, here's my thinking. I'm simply going to cut out the doorway, and build a door that simply sits in the doorway. If a model moves inside or outside, and opens the door, I can then simply remove the door from the building. No need to worry about it opening and closing, and so on.

And as for the brickwork, I think you're probably right. I know it's going to take ages, and I'll be crosseyed at the end of it all, but it will be worth it. 6 or 8 courses per inch it will be!

Archangel - thank you for the links! I have to say, I have admired that livery stable before, and I think you're probably right about the basing issue. I keep the base (which is only 1mm plasticard anyway) flush to the edge of the building, and it's mostly to allow me to glue flooring planks to the inside than for any other reason!

I suppose my issue about removable rooves (or even removable storeys) is that I want the environment to be engaged with as easily as possible, hence my idea to keep interior detail pretty simple (printed wallpaper patterns, plank flooring, and the odd table or shelf). The doors, though, are a real issue, and as I was saying above in response to Cory, I've more or less decided to just have the doors removable, rather than somehow opening or closing on hinges. Oh, thanks for the heads-up about spray-on glue for the wallpaper. I'll keep away from it. I read somewhere that the thing to do is to seal the print with a spray matt varnish (like Testor's Dullcote or GW's Purity Seal) before gluing it with white glue. I'll see how that works out!

As for the stairs, I fear that you're right. I'm just going to have to do them the long, tricky way, and attach each step as a separate wooden strip. Of course, it's going to be worth it anyway, because they look so damn cool!

Thanks also for the link to Eric Hotz's site - some great inspiration there!

Thanks to both of you for all your help and advice - and I promise I'll get pictures up soon! I just want them to be good, so I really want to get a lightbox before I start taking any more of my terrible blurry out-of-focus photos! The plan is to pick one up in the next couple of weeks, though, so stay tuned!

[Cory]

One option for stairs, and I say this as a gamer more than a modeler, is to make the stairs out of magnetic sheet and glue an overhead view of the treads to the sheet. The railings and such for the most part hide the fact that the treads and riders are two dimensional and it allows figures on metal bases to end a movement on the stairs without being propped in place with dice.

[THEHERMIT]

 Just keep it simple and make a saloon big enough to fit in a all your posses!
 











Its an impressive piecce and not to be tempted by the faint hearted!

I cant remember exactly how big this monster is either 18"x18" or 24"x24" (Colin will know)
 

[archangel1]

Oh, thanks for the heads-up about spray-on glue for the wallpaper. I'll keep away from it. I read somewhere that the thing to do is to seal the print with a spray matt varnish (like Testor's Dullcote or GW's Purity Seal) before gluing it with white glue. I'll see how that works out!

I don't think there would be any problem using spray adhesive for wallpaper or similar.  I think my trouble arose when I used several extra washes of stain after I'd glued on the planks.  The surface was probably wet enough to loosen the thin layer of spray glue that was holding on the paper pattern and the wood surface started to lift slightly.  Took a couple of months, though.  It only happened on the building ends and the loft door.  I used full strength carpenter's glue to replace the wood and it seems to be holding fine.  There doesn't seem to be any problem with the Blacksmith's.  Yet.

Mike

[Wolf 359]

  Hawkeye, stop showing off, man!!!! My terrain looks like a couple of school kids drawing with crayon compared to your fantastic shit, so stop showing off!!!! 
  Well done, sir......

[Wolf 359]

  Are the tables & chairs on an independent base?

[Hawkeye]

You mean the saloon, Wolf? I only wish it WERE mine. No, it's from the HERMIT, and it's there to demonstrate how a big saloon should look...and to show off!   Only joking. It's a fantastic piece of work, but I have to admit, the sheer size of it is daunting, from the actual construction point of view. I have to admit, though, Hermit, that I doubt I'll go much bigger than a foot in each direction, and in fact I'll probably make it slightly wider across its frontage than it is deep, but we'll see. Lots of nice details in there, though, so plenty of inspiration. The pool table is cool! Actually, the bar counter with the brass rail is also amazing, as is the balcony around the walls. And the stairs - I just built the outside stairs for my general store, in between grading papers, and I hated every evil gluey moment of it, so I take my hat off to you sir! Stairs are probably the hardest thing to build when it comes to terrain.

Mike - I see now. I may have misunderstood earlier, but I guess that what you're describing could happen. The washes basically washed away the glue and the paper started to peel. Got ya'. I'll watch out for that. Happy to hear, though, that others have used the dollhouse wallpaper idea to good effect. I'm sort of looking forward to it!

Anyway, all I need to do is put the finishing touches to the evil outside stairs, then I have more papers to grade and classes to prepare, so you won't hear any more from me for the evening, I imagine. Thank you all for your posts - they've all been amazingly helpful!

[Hawkeye]

Ah, Wolf, just got your post now. You'd have to ask Hermit, as it's his wonderful saloon, but just from eyeballing the pictures it looks that way. I suppose it keeps the pieces intact. I know from Mordheim that small pieces of furniture/interior detailing almost ALWAYS get broken or chipped or smashed. It seems to be the way of the modelling world.