Lap of the Gods New rule set

[warchariot]

I heard about a new ancient/medieval rule set called Lap of the Gods by Richard Jeffrey-Cook. It is available as a free PDF to members of The Society of Ancients (http://soa.org.uk) directly from Richard through the forum and will be published as a hard copy set sometime this year.

It is obvious that the author has played many of the rule sets that are/were available over the years and has drawn ideas from many of them. It is quick playing, 15 units on each side in about 3 hours, and is easy to pick up. My group also finds it very intuitive and easy to see why the mechanics work the way they do. We usually play historical based scenarios, but there is a point system and you can build your own units and generals. Basing is not standard except for equal frontages, so any basing will work. We have our 28mm figures based for Impetus and our 15mm for FOG/Armati and have had no issues switching back and forth in scale or basing.

It uses ordinary six-sided dice with a few markers for casualties and pursuit. The heart of the game are the command dice rolled by each general and spend in ascending order by each side (my 1s, then your 1s etc.) to order units and generals. Most orders require the dice number to meet or exceed the discipline rating of the unit which runs from 3 for superior, 4 for skilled and average and 5s for poor units. Generals have between 2-4 dice depending again on quality. At first I wondered how well this would work, a few dice, needing mainly 4s or better to use them. But Richard has built in several mechanics-group moves, no orders to fire or melee, and free moves after the command phase in certain situations to address this. Also, during the order phase, generals may use any score to move and units may move straight ahead on any score as long as they make a full move.

There are two types of combat, impact and melee. Formed units start with four dice and can add additional dice for attached general, weapons and other situations. Units may also lose dice for being poorly protected or fighting against heavy weapons. There are also additions and subtractions to the roll for offices, inspired troops and previous damage to the unit. The dice are rolled and added up, then compared to your opponent’s score. Distance shooting works in a similar way, while impact shooting can reduce your opponent’s dice at impact.

Hope this gives you some idea about how these work. We have used these for 2nd Punic war battles and for Age of War battles set in Japan. Richard has also been kind enough to answer the few questions we have had about the game through email and just let me know that Lap of the Gods just won best overall game at SoA Battle Day held April 1st.

(Disclaimer: I do not know Richard, have never met him and have no connection to him other than  through the society.  I did ask his permission to post about the game since it has not yet been publicly released. Also, the description above is my own and any errors are mine.)

Here are a couple of pictures from our latest games. 

[Polkovnik]

It is obvious that the author has played many of the rule sets that are/were available over the years and has drawn ideas from many of them.

Drawn ideas from, or blatantly copied rules mechanisms ?  

The heart of the game are the command dice rolled by each general and spend in ascending order by each side (my 1s, then your 1s etc.) to order units and generals. Most orders require the dice number to meet or exceed the discipline rating of the unit which runs from 3 for superior, 4 for skilled and average and 5s for poor units.

This sounds familiar. In Sword & Spear, action dice are rolled and used to activate units. Units are activated in ascending order of the action dice number. The action dice must equal or exceed the discipline rating of the unit, which ranges from 3 for superior to 5 for poor.  

[black hat miniatures]

Drawn ideas from, or blatantly copied rules mechanisms ?  

This sounds familiar. In Sword & Spear, action dice are rolled and used to activate units. Units are activated in ascending order of the action dice number. The action dice must equal or exceed the discipline rating of the unit, which ranges from 3 for superior to 5 for poor.  

And you can't copyright rules mechanisms (you can patent them...) - anyone is free to use them.

Mike

[warchariot]

Drawn ideas from, or blatantly copied rules mechanisms ?

 
When I said, “It is obvious that the author has played many of the rule sets that are/were available over the years and has drawn ideas from many of them.” it was conjecture on my part. I don’t know for sure what rules Richard has read or played. I do believe he drew from other rules since many of them use similar mechanics. After all, any game that uses D6s is limited to rolling one or more dice, adding and/or subtracting the results or using a target number. The result could be rerolled, perhaps more than once like in Yahtzee, or modifiers can be added or subtracted as they are in so many games. There isn’t anything new here.   

This sounds familiar. In Sword & Spear, action dice are rolled and used to activate units. Units are activated in ascending order of the action dice number. The action dice must equal or exceed the discipline rating of the unit, which ranges from 3 for superior to 5 for poor.  

It is familiar, as it has been used in several games. For example, Ganesha Games has an entire series based around it’s Song engine which uses a capability level to activate figures by rolling up to three dice. Any dice that meets or beats the threshold allows an action. More failures than successes ends your turn. The first time I was introduced to dice activation was with Two Hour Wargames Success engine which rolls two dice, again at a quality level giving zero, one or two actions to a figure. Impetus, another ancient/medieval rule set has troop discipline levels A, B and C, while not used to activate, they still correspond to 3+, 4+ and 5+ ranging from superior to poor units.

Then I first wrote this I was trying not to compare systems as I would have had to go through each step of the mechanics for each phase of the game to show similarities and differences for each rule set. But since you suggest Sword and Spears activation is the same, let’s look at them in more detail:

In your game, Sword and Spear, one dice for each unit is placed in a bag at the beginning of a turn. As I recall, seven dice are drawn randomly from the total in the bag. This resolves not only the initiative by who had the most dice drawn, but also who rolls and distributes dice among his units first. Any 1s are discarded along with 2s and 3s that can’t be placed as the score must meet the discipline level of the unit to be used.

Units are activated in ascending order using their assigned dice. To perform any actions, a unit must have an unused dice or, in some cases like evades, may attempt to evade and then remove a dice from the bag if any remain. Once these are used, the next batch is draw and so forth until the dice bag is exhausted. This is a simple and elegant way to resolve activations and is basically the way units move, shoot and fight.

In Lap of the Gods, generals contribute between 2-4 dice each, which are rolled and placed, regardless of the result, with the corresponding generals to begin a turn. This also determines who has the initiative by comparing the number of 6s rolled with the high number winning. If tied, then 5s are compared, then 4s etc. until one side wins the initiative. Now independent officers not fighting in the front rank, roll a dice that can be used to activate their unit only.

These are now resolved in ascending order, mainly to move troops, but also to rally, reinforce and inspire units. As I said in my earlier post, scores lower that 3 can still be used by generals and to move units or groups straight ahead their full movement distance if they don’t contact the enemy. This makes 1s and 2s very useful for units or groups early in the game and to position generals throughout the game. Skirmishers and most cavalry, as with most rules, can attempt to evade when charged. This can happen multiple times as needed during a turn.

Once the order phase ends, the free movement phase allows qualifying troops to make pursuits, charge units which shoot at them last turn and for units to conform. Skirmishers that haven’t moved can now move into shooting position. There are also reaction moves and evaders can turn back around.  Shooting and melee are also separate phases in which all qualifying units can participate.

Hope this helps clear up an misunderstanding and show that LotG is similar yet a different style of ancient warfare.        

[lionheartrjc]

As author of "Lap of the Gods", I feel I am entitled to comment.  I should make it clear that I have played "Sword and Spear" and am familiar with the rule mechanisms in those rules.  I would be more than happy to send a set of my rules to the author of Sword and Spear if he would like a set.

It is incredibly difficult to come up with rule mechanisms that are entirely original. I do feel that my command and control mechanism is however different from other rule-sets.  As I explain in my designer notes, I am looking to create a game where the player has choices to make.  The rules make it fairly easy to move troops straight ahead at full speed.  Anything else is a bit more difficult.  This means that you get into the action fairly quickly - I am not a fan of games where you spend 2 hours manoeuvring before any shooting or fighting happens.

The rules have appeared at a number of public events, including the last two Society of Ancients Battle Days, the Society of Ancients Conference and at Warfare. At each event it has drawn a lot of interest and it won the Best Overall Game at this years SOA Battle Day.

It is planned to publish the rules through the Society of Ancients (www.soa.org.uk) later this year.  Any Society of Ancients member can obtain a PDF copy of the rules by requesting them from the SOA forum.

Good gaming!

[LordBrentlake]

It's almost inevitable that rulesets covering the same type of warfare will have elements in common. Both Lap of the Gods and Sword and Spear group bases into units and use six-sided dice, as do many others (but not all).

I have, and have played, both sets of rules. Whilst there are elements of the command and control systems that can be regarded as common there are also those that are markedly different. Some of these are already been mentioned.

The combat mechanisms are quite distinct, and they feed through to morale and performance degradation in different ways.

In my experience the pace of Lap of the Gods is quicker, with combat occurring sooner and the impact of losing units on their friends being higher.

[warchariot]

Anyone got a link to these (free?) rules so we can have a look and read for ourselves? Or is it just available to SOA members?

It is planned to publish the rules through the Society of Ancients (www.soa.org.uk) later this year.  Any Society of Ancients member can obtain a PDF copy of the rules by requesting them from the SOA forum.

Blimey.
Judging by the description in the OP it certainly does sound like it was (ahem) 'inspired' by Sword & Spear.
I've not played Lap of the Gods, so I'm happy to be proven it is significantly different.

If not, well...OK, so you can't copyright rules mechanisms, but that doesn't make you look any better, and neither should you feel any better.

Wow, I read and post here because the posts are so positive and supportive. They always seem to encourage. Past posts about new rules general wish the author good luck and that they look forward to seeing them. My intention in posting about LotG was to announce a new rules set. I gave some detail in anticipation of questions people might have as that is what usually happens. I must say, I'm taken aback by calls of blatantly copied rules mechanisms and tried again to explain how different they are. I could have explain other mechanics of the rules like shooting and combat, which again look similar to other rules set, but looking nothing like S&S other than dice are involved. So now I'm unsure about how "safe" it is to post here, sad really.

[Mad Doc Morris]

Plagiarism is a serious offence, so everyone please calm down!
There might be striking similarities in certain rulesets but they are not necessarily due to intentional copying. Judgement in this matter should be based on first-hand experience not reviews.

Feel free to use this thread for further discussion of the rules. But please refrain from accusations and attacks ad hominem. Thanks!