Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: smirnoff on 13 October 2017, 11:29:13 AM
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Gents
I'm looking for orbats, wargame army lists and info for the Polish/Lithuanian armies for the 1600-29 wars mainly the war of 1621–25 and the war of 1626–29.
All help gratefully received....
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I have army lists for George Gush and Field of Glory. Are these of interest to you?
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Indeed they are Baron
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First question - what languages do you can read? There is a great book about polish-swedish wars called sveriges kriegs t.2 (which is in swedish but there is also a polish translation) as well as wojskowość polska doby wojen polsko szwedzkich : kryzys mocarstwa. These are the most comprehensive books on PLC warfare and polish swedish wars of 1620s. If you need translation, let me know what particular battles are you interested in and I'll search i there areany orbat for them.
Imho the biggest problem here is lack of historically accurate polish minis for that period except foundry winged hussars. No proper cossack style cavalry, if you would like to convert other minis I'm more than inclinedto send you period engravings of such.
Regards,
Tom
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Hi Tom
I only read English.
I will be doing this in 15mm but any images gratefully received.
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I also have a DBR list for the 1576-1631 period. If you PM me your snail mail address, I can post you photocopies, as both the Gush and FOGR lists are very long (2 full pages each); alternatively, with a private email address, I could scan them and email them to you.
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Many thanks Baron
PM sent
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Message received. Will try to get something over to you today.
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Ok, I'll post sime pics tomorrow :), oh and check kadrinazi.blogspot.com his the specialist in this period.
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Anyone seen 'Wojskowosc polska w dobie wojny polsko-szwedzkiej 1626-1629 Kryzys mocarstwa' (Polish military in the age of the Polish-Swedish war 1626-1629. Crisis of a power) by Sikora in English translation?
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Unfortunately there isn't. If you wait a week or so, I'll translate info you need.
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Brilliant
Thanks
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Ok now I'll post stuff that is almost 100% from 1620s, next time I'll post stuff from the early 1630s.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mZCq2Tdb0yY/WePFZ-4dJnI/AAAAAAAAOdU/8MklYzRlTocYdKn9TlwwXX1JMYZTjtIDgCLcBGAs/s1600/booth.jpeg)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WGIWsRCBDzI/WePGMDKeYNI/AAAAAAAAOdg/xlxarMlKDV8ZcVbUvrAjXNCHB4t0wuEXACLcBGAs/s1600/FB_IMG_1493939823782.jpg)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XGTG8IwUjXQ/WePJZRryO8I/AAAAAAAAOdw/celzlaPRmnUmCwVzm0KKDpsw154Q2b1JgCLcBGAs/s1600/05a3fc2bfda71ebe7c8ccfbf99b61961.jpeg)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kadzaOQtt1E/WePJZjnWJjI/AAAAAAAAOd4/5kNy02_mIHsRKzIYGgSBA39kFAdQNWNfQCLcBGAs/s1600/250394_351867598254407_1244613604_n.jpg)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6SSHsnXXiic/WePJanA2AHI/AAAAAAAAOeA/38H1CmCwIpAUYbt63xhm8nuHUtNOim8EgCLcBGAs/s1600/legatie%2Bvon%2Bbooth1%2B%25281%2529.png)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rqAlDdmnAfs/WePJahLWxEI/AAAAAAAAOeE/ourPTOe5iEM0q0SSsZm2kUhPJ_cHZ-zuQCLcBGAs/s1600/legatie%2Bvon%2Bbooth%2B%25281%2529.png)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hhOdQmbhJFc/WePJpqrIQtI/AAAAAAAAOeI/BZNXiyF4D44Ne7_Uyg9KTHM3TkKO70oBACLcBGAs/s1600/FB_IMG_1471770243359.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kiCIxurIpLk/WePJph3ol1I/AAAAAAAAOeM/j1nDLXDdJhAj4bOr6BO-tEqao0X_WFXiwCLcBGAs/s1600/FB_IMG_1471770250980.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mFY3kbHQGeg/WePJZmJIlvI/AAAAAAAAOd0/WXuo-n0FwdEKeBUOzxPyfqGG8Y6TNTtTwCLcBGAs/s1600/BP_027.jpeg)
Look at the mix of eastern vambraces with iron gauntlet -quite typical for that period
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VKa-NycfBkA/WePKzqJX3LI/AAAAAAAAOec/Y-JCS55aTIQTv1IfqAEkbSkATLHQ31kKwCLcBGAs/s1600/FB_IMG_1470271394237.jpg)
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For slightly earlier you may want to watch for inspiration:
1612
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBgf9xRgeuw
Likewise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9ReGnSynmw
In 1/72 you can get stunning winged hussars by Zvezda see http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=1315
I know its not exactly what your looking for but also given Osprey's Pikeman's Lament an army containing winged hussars may be gaining more interest...
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Zvezda hussars are great, but they are more for 1670s-1690s. Too different arms and armor for 1620s.
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Thanks for the images MP
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Hi - No success with scanning and emailing (well, scanning - never got as far as the emailing) and so will photocopy and snail mail to you tomorrow. FoGR, Gush, and DBR. (Sorry!!!)
Cheers,
BvW
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No worries at all Baron
There is no rush
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What info do you want? :) OdBs, arms&armor?
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The point is sometimes made that religious art is a risky guide; Poles in armour often represented themselves in styles far more western than they actually used in combat.
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What info do you want? :) OdBs, arms&armor?
Yes please, also interested in proportions of different troop types
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The point is sometimes made that religious art is a risky guide; Poles in armour often represented themselves in styles far more western than they actually used in combat.
As for the western style of armor- durimg 1620s the so called older style of hussar armor did not appear until at least 1640s, so there was indeed quit a mish mash of western and eastern armor elements. But your best bet for 1620s would be anima style cuirass with mail shirt undereath, or just mail sleeves or western vambraces or eastern vambraces with protection for hands (like those in the line art above) and ofc szyszak helmet of southgerman, hungarian or local origin.
Well it depends, which period you have in mind, and what social class is depicted, and who was the author of particular religious piece of art (someone well versed with local culture or not; votive paintings are your best bet for historically accurate depictions).
Thed discrepancy you've mentioned describes the best the situation in the XVIth century and depictions of magnates as well the works of some foreign artists (check Snayers hussars on a depiction from the smoleńsk war of 1632-34). Often depictions of poorer nobility made by local artists show quite accurate arms, armor and garments (like the votive paintings from Gidle and Piotrawin).
@Smirnoff
Ok give me a week or so and I'll post here some stuff :-).
Btw sorry for my poor english
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Like so many Poles, you write English better than too many native speakers!
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How would Haiduks form up on the field? Close or loose order when deployed with the cavalry?
And Brezezinski writes that combat against Gustavus' Swedish Pike and Shot formations meant that the shot only Haiduk units were phased out and for pike and shot formations. Anyone know when this happened with native Polish/Lithuanian infantry?
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Hi, sorry for not posting. I have a very busy time. I'll post that info asap.
As for haiduks - what do you mean by deploying them with cavalry?
I haven't seen any contemporary description of haiduks fighting as swedish commanded shot with cavalry, if you've meant that.
As for infantry in polish-lithuanian army - the extensive use of p&s infantry was introduced a bit later in the smoleńsk war of 1632-34.
Previously (i.e. before 1632) p&s infantry units were hired from abroad. After establishing the so called autorament cudzoziemski (foreign style corps, but it's a less than satisfactory translation) most of the p&s infantry was made of poles sometimes led by foreign officers.
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No worries MP
I have read that the haiduks were placed in the intervals between the cavalry formations and were used to shoot the cavalry in (jasinski.co.uk)..is that incorrect?
I am looking for some advice on how to base the haiduks, I think they formed 10 deep and so I'm assuming they look like shot sleeves in a western pike and shot unit?
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No no it's correct, I was thinking about something entirely different. I was thinking about an instance when haiduks were suppose to run after cavalry. To my knowledge they usually held their positions ( but I'll have to check this).
As for the depth of units they usually were 10 ranks deep, and unlike p&s units they didn't employ countermarch but the so called napady ogniowe (~fire assaults) ( kind of salvo fire where rear ranks start and front ranks subsequently stand up from kneeling to fire).
As for their deployment - bigger units were usually split into two wings (e.g. 2 wings of 150 men each in 10 ranks)
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Thanks
Found an interesting breakdown on the same site of some troops proportions in 1627 Vs. Swedes
2,150 hussars,
3,290 Cossack cavalry
2,515 western infantry
1,620 Polish infantry
1,265 dragoons
2,000 Zaporozhian Cossacks
I think the Cossack cavalry would be a mix of Pancerni and light cavalry? And the Zaporozhian Cossacks would be infantry?
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Cossack style cavalry units at this time were primarily light cavalry. Zbaraski in his letter to the Sejm proposed to furnish them with armor because they had problems fighting the swedes "just in coat with bow and arrows". Ofc some of them had arquebuses or carabines or pistols but the majority was equipped with bow. As for percentsge of armor in a unit - the safe estimate would be that up to ~25% of men (the towarzysze) and some retainers might have had some form of protection - be that chainmail, even cuirass, padded leather/silk coats, vambraces, szyszak helemts or msiurka (mail coif with flat/convex steel disc ontop). Ofc there were exceptions to this like petyhorcy which were equipped with mail armor and spear or lance.
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As for the Zaporozhian Cossacks - probably the vast majority was infantry, but I wouldn't rule out the existence of a few sotnias of scout cavalry.
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My Cossack army, caught by really annoyed Turks after burning Izmir to the ground in a recent campaign (I know; I was the Sultan). They have a sprinkling of Don Cossack mercenaries, but are mainly foot themselves.
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Nice
Which rules are you using?
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VEry impressive :).
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I'm working atm on the translation for you.
Check this blog with google translate http://kadrinazi.blogspot.com/search/label/wojna%201626-1629
This blog is run by Michał Paradowski ( the best expert on the matter you are interested in), he is a historical consultant in By fire and sword team. I cannot believe I've forgotten to mention him.
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Excellent, thanks
That does look a great blog...but I can't get it translated, google does not seem to want to know about translating the blog itself
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Hmm maybe use firefox?
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Interesting excerpt from Eques Polonus by Szymon Starowolski (1632) :
"Jazda lekka bywa dwojaka; która używa włóczni krótkiej (rohatyny) i pancerza, nazywa się Czeremysy i druga, która albo strzelby tylko, albo łuków, albo obojga razem używa, bądź zbroję odziana bądź nie, nazywają się kozacy [...]
Czeremysy w pancerze i tarcze zbrojni, albo strzelby długiej, albo strzał, opasani szablą krzywą, mają oni włócznie na 4 łokcie długą, z boku prawego uwiązaną, którą przy spotkaniu z bliska rażą mocno nieprzyjaciela. Kozacy są dwojacy: jedni odziani w zbroję albo pancerz i szyszak, i mają dwie strzelby krótkie, i jedną długą, i szablę krzywą. Drudzy kozacy bez zbroi, w samych tylko sukniach, używają tejże strzelby"
"There are two types of light cavalry. One is equipped with spear and wears chainmail - this one is called czeremysy and the other one is equipped with long firearm or bow or both and is furnished with armor or not - this one is called kozacy [...]
The czeremysy are furnished with chainmail and shield, equipped with long firearm or bow, sabre, 2,5 meter long spear tied to the right side, which they use to attack their enemies at a close distance.
There are two type of cossacks: first type is furnished with armor or chainmail and szyszak helmet and is equipped with two short firearms and one long as well as sabre. The other type is unarmored, only in their coats equipped with long firearm"
As you can see the description is quite a mess :p. The terminology was not standarized as well as the equipment. Light cavalry was sometimes called - cossack, tatar, wallachian, elear.
As for the czeremysy this seems to be just another name for petyhorcy. Which in turn at some point used shorter version of hussars's kopia.
As for the shields - we do not know for sure what kind of them were in use - this could be round eastern woven one, balkan asymmetrical or something else.
Note on the translation:
I've used long and short firearm for długa and krótka strzelba because it doesn't specify whether its a carabine or arquebus and pistol or krucica (sawn off arquebus)
As for armor and chainmail - in period texts zbroja (armor) designated some kind of plate armor and pancerz - chainmail.
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Nice
Which rules are you using?
Ten More Sons! for the battle; Blood and Borscht for the campaign. Both home brew.
Wearily points out that one can wear mail, but chainmail does not exist.
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Could you elaborate on this one, I do not understand? :-)
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Chainmail was a word never used in the days when the stuff was worn. It was inflicted on the world hundreds of years later by an overrated Scotch novelist.
Real warriors called it mail; wargamers might do well to follow their example.
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wargamers might do well to follow their example.
Why? To avoid the ire of pedants?
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The Ire of Pedants would make a great place name for a fantasy scenario.
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The Ire of Pedants would make a great place name for a fantasy scenario.
Hahahaha.
And it's 'Scots' Kitty, not 'Scotch'. Slàinte!
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Good - I'm glad someone noticed!
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I've been looking for contemporary art, paintings or engravings, showing the deployment of Polish troops in this period like Matthaeus Meria's work etc.
Whilst I'm aware that most artists were not present at a battle, therefore dispositions may be inaccurate, be good to see something.
Anyone know of anything available online for the war 1626-9?
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There is depiction of battle of Górzno somwhere on Michał's blog.
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Thanks.
is there any evidence for the dress of the hajduks?
I have read some wore a grey/blue coat with red cuff/collars.
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No confirmation from 1626-1629 war, but enough other sources to confirm that blue and red 'żupan' was the most popular.
http://kadrinazi.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/w-barwie-najnowsze-uzupenienie.html
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Thanks.
In that image you have at the top of the piece, is he wearing the 'hemp' coloured zupan?
I have 3 units to do, two are blue and red, I thought one could be another colour combination (the Osprey book 1 shows other colours)?
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For slightly earlier you may want to watch for inspiration:
1612
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBgf9xRgeuw
Being not in English, is "1612" available with subtitles some where?
Likewise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9ReGnSynmw
This link wasn't available to me.
I know its not exactly what your looking for but also given Osprey's Pikeman's Lament an army containing winged hussars may be gaining more interest...
A good set of rules!
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Thanks.
In that image you have at the top of the piece, is he wearing the 'hemp' coloured zupan?
I have 3 units to do, two are blue and red, I thought one could be another colour combination (the Osprey book 1 shows other colours)?
It's haiduk from so called Tablica Gołuchowska:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tablica_Go%C5%82uchowska.jpg
and his colour is - for infantryman - rather unusual. Strangely enough we don't have description of haiduks wearing white (like here) or grey (that should be the cheapest one to get at that time). It may something to do with the fact that written descriptions of haiduks' and draby units usually relates to private, guard or district units.
Of course we also have haiduks from Stockholm Roll but yet again we need to remember that units shown there were equipped 'for show', therefore may not be the best indicator of how real units looks in field army. Plenty of fragments from SR is in album on my blog's FB:
https://www.facebook.com/pg/Historycznybot/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1225997217439137
Considering conditions of 1621-1629 war and the role that haiduks played in it (where they usually were left as garrison forces, most of the time in very poor living conditions) good idea could be just mix of different colours within each banner (unit), as soldiers had to find locally whatever clothes were available, once their original 'uniform' was worn out.
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Considering conditions of 1621-1629 war and the role that haiduks played in it (where they usually were left as garrison forces, most of the time in very poor living conditions) good idea could be just mix of different colours within each banner (unit), as soldiers had to find locally whatever clothes were available, once their original 'uniform' was worn out.
I see this kind of comment quite often on wargames fora and it does make me wonder how soldiers were clothed "unofficially" and how disparate (as opposed to desperate) they would have looked when re-clothed. Would each man be left to obtain his own replacement clothing - or even just the cloth to make it up - or would "the powers that be" (eg his CO, or more frighteningly his RSM) go looking for a quantity of cloth of the same/similar colour to be made up into a single type of garment for the entire company/unit? Or would someone from the commissary section, or its equivalent, be constantly on the look out for suitable cloth and keep some stocks, especially in garrisons?
I know we like to portray our troops in various colours (eg Peninsula British in the odd pair of brahn trowzis among all the white overalls) but did they not still look vaguely uniform after the company tailors had done their stuff? Wouldn't issue clothing all wear out at about the same time, and thus be replaced (or need replacing) at the same time?
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Easiest way was to just aquire clothes from local people, usually by force - and it didn't matter if they were on same side. Some armies were much better in providing their own troops with clothes (or at least cloth to make one), for 1621-1629 Swedes are actually good example, as they make big effort to provide their soldiers with proper clothing. With Polish and Lithuanian troops much depended on commander of the unit and type of formation - winged hussars could take care of themselves, poor infantrymen were often starving to death on their posts, so I think matter of clothes was their last problem.
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Easiest way was to just aquire clothes from local people, usually by force - and it didn't matter if they were on same side. Some armies were much better in providing their own troops with clothes (or at least cloth to make one), for 1621-1629 Swedes are actually good example, as they make big effort to provide their soldiers with proper clothing. With Polish and Lithuanian troops much depended on commander of the unit and type of formation - winged hussars could take care of themselves, poor infantrymen were often starving to death on their posts, so I think matter of clothes was their last problem.
The poor sods were often freezing too. Clothes weren't a luxury (and I write as a practising nudist).