Polish-Lithuanian Armies 1621-29?

[smirnoff]

Thanks for the images MP

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

Hi - No success with scanning and emailing (well, scanning - never got as far as the emailing) and so will photocopy and snail mail to you tomorrow.  FoGR, Gush, and DBR.  (Sorry!!!)

Cheers,
BvW

[smirnoff]

No worries at all Baron
There is no rush

[M.P.]

What info do you want? OdBs, arms&armor?

[FierceKitty]

The point is sometimes made that religious art is a risky guide; Poles in armour often represented themselves in styles far more western than they actually used in combat.

[smirnoff]

What info do you want? OdBs, arms&armor?

Yes please, also interested in proportions of different troop types

[M.P.]

The point is sometimes made that religious art is a risky guide; Poles in armour often represented themselves in styles far more western than they actually used in combat.

As for the western style of armor- durimg 1620s the so called older style of hussar armor did not appear until at least 1640s, so there was indeed quit a mish mash of western and eastern armor elements. But your best bet for 1620s would be anima style cuirass with mail shirt undereath, or just mail sleeves or western vambraces or eastern vambraces with protection for hands (like those in the line art above) and ofc szyszak helmet of southgerman, hungarian or local origin.

Well it depends, which period you have in mind, and what social class is depicted, and who was the author of particular religious piece of art (someone well versed with local culture or not; votive paintings are your best bet for historically accurate depictions).

Thed discrepancy you've mentioned describes the best the situation in the XVIth century and depictions of magnates as well the works of some foreign artists (check Snayers hussars on a depiction from the smoleńsk war of 1632-34). Often depictions of poorer nobility made by local artists show quite accurate arms, armor and garments (like the votive paintings from Gidle and Piotrawin).

@Smirnoff

Ok give me a week or so and I'll post here some stuff :-).

Btw sorry for my poor english

[FierceKitty]

Like so many Poles, you write English better than too many native speakers!

[smirnoff]

How would Haiduks form up on the field? Close or loose order when deployed with the cavalry?

And Brezezinski writes that combat against Gustavus' Swedish Pike and Shot formations meant that the shot only Haiduk units were phased out and for pike and shot formations. Anyone know when this happened with native Polish/Lithuanian infantry?

[M.P.]

Hi, sorry for not posting. I have a very busy time. I'll post that info asap.

As for haiduks - what do you mean by deploying them with cavalry?

I haven't seen any contemporary description of haiduks fighting as swedish commanded shot with cavalry, if you've meant that.

As for infantry in polish-lithuanian army - the extensive use of p&s infantry was introduced a bit later in the smoleńsk war of 1632-34.

Previously (i.e. before 1632) p&s infantry units were hired from abroad. After establishing the so called autorament cudzoziemski (foreign style corps, but it's a less than satisfactory translation) most of the p&s infantry was made of poles sometimes led by foreign officers.

[smirnoff]

No worries MP

I have read that the haiduks were placed in the intervals between the cavalry formations and were used to shoot the cavalry in (jasinski.co.uk)..is that incorrect?

I am looking for some advice on how to base the haiduks, I think they formed 10 deep and so I'm assuming they look like shot sleeves in a western pike and shot unit?

[M.P.]

No no it's correct, I was thinking about something entirely different. I was thinking about an instance when haiduks were suppose to run after cavalry. To my knowledge they usually held their positions ( but I'll have to check this).

As for the depth of units they usually were 10 ranks deep, and unlike p&s units they didn't employ countermarch but the so called napady ogniowe (~fire assaults) ( kind of salvo fire where rear ranks start and front ranks subsequently stand up from kneeling to fire).

As for their deployment - bigger units were usually split into two wings (e.g. 2 wings of 150 men each in 10 ranks)

[smirnoff]

Thanks
Found an interesting breakdown on the same site of some troops proportions in 1627 Vs. Swedes                  

2,150 hussars,               
3,290 Cossack cavalry         
2,515 western infantry            
1,620 Polish infantry      
1,265 dragoons          
2,000 Zaporozhian Cossacks

I think the Cossack cavalry would be a mix of Pancerni and light cavalry? And the Zaporozhian Cossacks would be infantry?

[M.P.]

Cossack style cavalry  units at this time were primarily light cavalry. Zbaraski in his letter to the Sejm proposed to furnish them with armor because they had problems fighting the swedes "just in coat with bow and arrows". Ofc some of them had arquebuses or carabines or pistols but the majority was equipped with bow. As for percentsge of armor in a unit - the safe estimate would be that  up to ~25% of men (the towarzysze) and some  retainers might have had some form of protection - be that chainmail, even cuirass, padded leather/silk coats, vambraces, szyszak helemts or msiurka (mail coif with flat/convex steel disc ontop). Ofc there were exceptions to this like petyhorcy which were equipped with mail armor and spear or lance.

[M.P.]

As for the Zaporozhian Cossacks - probably the vast majority was infantry, but I wouldn't rule out the existence of a few sotnias of scout cavalry.