Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: aktr on 23 June 2020, 02:15:05 PM
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Hi,
I'm looking for some recommendations for some ancients rulesets for a mass battle game
something allowing for roughly 100-200 minis per side.
I was looking into Hail Ceaser but I saw some reviews saying that you really need a table bigger then 6x4
I have also heard of To the Strongest - however I don't like the idea of the grid system
A couple of things
It needs to have an in print rulebook that I can buy in the UK
has to work for 28mm Miniatures
needs a points system
Cheers
Andy
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I have not played it and therefore can say nothing about the quality of the game but there is a game called "Swordpoint" which supports classical army lists:
https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/SWORDPOINT.html
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You want mass battles, a smallish table, and 28mm? Hmmm...why not have Michelangelo sculpt them and J. S. Cotman do the terrain, while you're asking for more than 360 degrees in the circle? I do think you may have to compromise a tiny bit.
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You want mass battles, a smallish table, and 28mm? Hmmm...why not have Michelangelo sculpt them and J. S. Cotman do the terrain, while you're asking for more than 360 degrees in the circle? I do think you may have to compromise a tiny bit.
I wouldn't say 6x4 is a small table - I'd class it as a standard size.
basically I'm trying to recapture the feel of old WFB which did all of these things but just with ancients
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Pulse of Battle if you like card driven games will suit you. You can get it from Lancashire Games.
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There's also the now out-of-print Warhammer Ancient Battles (WAB), which was based directly on WFB, or the still readily available War and Conquest, one of WAB's close successors, by Rob Broom, formerly of Warhammer Historical:
https://scarabminiatures.com/product/smp-001-war-conquest-rulebook-5/
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DBMM or Art of War meet your conditions. They are not size specific, though.
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I would recommend looking at:
Tactica II
War and Conquest
Clash of Empires
Swordpoint
Hail Caesar (can be played on 6x4 you can adjust movement rates)
ADLG is not exactly mass units but can be large games.
I prefer WAB 1.5 since I am old and an outlier. Extremely old. But does not pass the 'in print' test and has incomplete army lists.
WAB2 has complete army lists and is self contained, but makes my arms hurt.
Much of these depends on which ancient period you wish to play in and how big a show. Some rules work better in certain periods than others. For example for heroic age Trojan wars- then WAB or War and Conquest might be your cup of tea (or even modified Lion Rampant).
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If you want something like WFB, you really need Warhammer Ancient Battles (WAB).
You could try War and Conquest.
Jeff Jonas’ advice is, as always, very good! (I’m not sure about the arms hurting from v2, though?)
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Since you mentioned WFB I have another honorable mention, if you just want to use historical minis without it strictly speaking being a true-to-history-game: Warlords of Erehwon.
The game features one Roman army list, one Barbarian army list and one for "Olympians" (basically the fantasy movie version of ancient Greeks). The author also provided a document which gave insight into how point values are created so you can fashion your own lists.
I intend to play a game of Romans versus the Skeleton horde very soon :)
I just started out with the system because I missed WFB and while the gameplay is different it captures the fun and the spirit of the game just right (at least that is my impression from reading the rulebook).
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The scribd.com website has some pdf scans of the wab 1.5 rulebook and supplements. the joy of GW not caring about WAb is that their lawyers have not noticed . So you could wander over there and download a pdf copy
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(I’m not sure about the arms hurting from v2, though?)
humor....
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JJonas has hit the highlights.... unless you wan tot play a DBA/M variant with 28mm models such as....
DBA/M
Impetus
Le' Arte de Guerre
However, I recommend you go with JJonas thoughts. WAB is easy to find as a PDF download nad plays exactly like Warhammer Fantasy Battle so that is the easiest cross-over.
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Hail Caesar is fine on 6x4 as you can adjust the scaling easily.
All you need to do is change the standard size unit from 160mm to 120mm (8 men to 6 men front rank) to give you more room to play with. I do that anyway and I play on an 8x5’6” table, but enjoy being able to field more units.
Hail Caesar also says something like three divisions of four units per army, but that makes very big armies and you can easily play with just three units per division, or cut down to two divisions in each army and it still works fine. I played that way as I was building up my armies.
And as someone else says, if you really want to downscale you can measure movement in centimetres instead of inches, which effectively makes your table bigger (I did that when playing the first time with units of 80mm width when I didn’t have enough figures for bigger units).
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I have not played it and therefore can say nothing about the quality of the game but there is a game called "Swordpoint" which supports classical army lists:
https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/SWORDPOINT.html
+1 for Swordpoint!
That would be my selection too. The combats are drawn out with the emphasis on support and holding the 'battle line' so it's very suitable for Ancients.
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I think you should take a look at L'art de la guerre. We play it, and it's played in tournaments in the US, with 28mm figs on a 6'x4' table. It typically uses 20-30 stands of figures, with 6 or 8 close order infantry per stand for close order infantry and 3 cavalry on a cavalry stand.
The thing I like about the rules is that there really aren't many rules ambiguities at this point in its history.
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ADLG is very much in the DBX model. I won't discuss it as I played it and it was not for me but it has managed to get the DBX/FOG crowd excited so it has something going for it.
It will not deliver a Warhammer experience if that is what you are after . Clash of Empires might be worth exploring as it Warhammer by other means.
Discussion of rules is at times an academic exercise as you are constrained by what is being played in your locality
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That is one heavy book!
I have most of the others, but not that one (Armies of Antiquity).
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Thanks for the reply's everyone
I should probably clarify that it doesn't have to be an exact copy of WFB, just the feel of it - by which I mean blocks on infantry moving round the table in rank and file. With skirmishers flowing round them and cavalry trying to avoid the pointy sticks and get in the sides.
I've done some more digging myself and it looks like Hail Caesar, Clash of Empires and War and Conquest might all work. I do already have the swordpoint book but my opponent would prefer something with a bit more chrome. He is just in it for the cool models so if the book isn't clear on is something is infantry or cavalry then it puts him off
period wise I'm waiting for my opponent to pick something but he has said he ether likes the idea of something with plenty of Phalanx or 'Romans' (he has not specified what period of Roman). Personally I like Persia or Carthage
I did a search for clash of empires on here and found a thread from a few years ago which was the last time someone agreed to play ancients with me and I was asking about CoE vs WaC vs HC. sadly that fell through and no ancient gaming happened
Cheers
Andy
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The sad reality is finding a CoE player is quite difficult. I had a quick look on the Great Escape Games forum and their opponent finder, shows barely any activity in 6 years.
Hopefully, your opponent will get an army and you get some gaming in
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The sad reality is finding a CoE player is quite difficult. I had a quick look on the Great Escape Games forum and their opponent finder, shows barely any activity in 6 years.
It died a death quite quickly. I found it too derivative of WAB though I do have some pictures in the book.
Hopefully, your opponent will get an army and you get some gaming in
Amen to that..... :)
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CoE's arrival seemed timed to coincide with WAB's demise. Its derivative nature was no doubt intended to provide a successor system with "support". In principle, WAB players should have segued to CoE but, for whatever reason it did not seem to last. Great Escape did provide lots of free army lists via thier website to support which should have addressed one of the gripes about WAB- the lack of army books.+
One of my issues was that whenever I played CoE I kept defaulting to WAB, so much so that I wondered if I were not better off sticking with WAB.
Being derivative is by no means a bad thing- witness the success of A Derivative Little Game, which is heavily indebted to DBX.
As they used to say in the Seleucid kingdom, " One man's Mead, is another's Persian
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Being derivative is by no means a bad thing
No, I wasn't suggesting that. There are traces of WAB in Swordpoint (far superior IMHO).
We still use WAB 1.5 at the club quite regularly (though seems like a while back now!).
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Agree with much of what has been said, so will Just add a few more titles to throw into the mix.
Sword and Spear from Great Escape Games.
Ancient and Medieval Wargaming by Neil Thomas
Kings of War Historical from Mantic Games
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So, newbie question for you guys: how difficult is it to switch back and forth between different games without building a whole new army? I've only started collecting/painting over the past few months and I've kind of defaulted to Hail Caesar, mostly because that's what seems most readily available on the web.
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"As they used to say in the Seleucid kingdom, " One man's Mead, is another's Persian" Humor!!
Clash of Empires was much more complete than WAB since it had many 'solutions' that caused rancor in WAB games. Sadly I felt the game added complexity where none was needed. The rules solutions seemed better to apply to WAB. Nobody in my area wanted to play it- because it was a bit more dense than WAB. So they preferred WAB until it all came crashing down.
War and Conquest is better IMO, but has issues with bowfire than can cripple games.
I reckon the curse happens when a rule set must cover all warfare from the stone age until gunpowder takes over- all over the planet so folks can have balanced games.
That does happen in very generic systems such as DBA where a blade is a blade and a Mede a Mede. But more complex systems with lots of fluff and period color really complicates the crossover of armies.
We cannot really know what a Chinese army of 200 AD would have done to Romans, we can only guess. But somehow gamers feel that rules designers can come up with a balanced game for that. WAB always worked best when within their own periods. Vikings had a hard time with phalanxes. This pissed off Viking players. That argument is kind of like Mahdists had trouble with machine guns.
Really the answer to the question is what army and period are you planning to collect and play. Normally one has to build two armies- one you like and one you can get others to play against you with. If you like Persians and Rome then the late Roman armies vs. Sassanians are a great match. Achaemenid Persians are difficult to handle since they can be so shooty (and boring). Carthage is always a very flexible combined arms army, so it takes dexterity to win with them.
As for switching back and forth between games, it comes down to how flexible is your opponent. Is it more important that everything line up perfectly so they don't have a snit over it, or if one is at 25mm a figure and the other at 20mm you can figure it out? People with multi based figures can use casualty rings.
Fashion changes like the wind. Single based was all the rage, then multi based mini dioramas became the cats meow. Now skirmish scale games are bringing back single bases. Lucky for me I mostly have single based figures so sabots are my salvation. Hallelujah!
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Really the answer to the question is what army and period are you planning to collect and play. Normally one has to build two armies- one you like and one you can get others to play against you with. If you like Persians and Rome then the late Roman armies vs. Sassanians are a great match. Achaemenid Persians are difficult to handle since they can be so shooty (and boring). Carthage is always a very flexible combined arms army, so it takes dexterity to win with them.
Ha, it's funny you say that, because I'd kind of assumed that's what I would be doing from the start. Right now I guess I'm kind of working on a "Super Successors" army--basically a combo Seleucid/Greco-Bactrian, especially since there's so much overlap, anyway. This is both because I've always been fascinated by both groups, but also because I don't actually *know* anyone in the hobby yet (since I started literally right before the COVID meltdown, so I figured at least at the start I might just be strong-arming house guests or family members into playing with me, so I'd need two armies for that lol And this way I should be able to swap units back and forth between them to some extent, too.
As for switching back and forth between games, it comes down to how flexible is your opponent. Is it more important that everything line up perfectly so they don't have a snit over it, or if one is at 25mm a figure and the other at 20mm you can figure it out? People with multi based figures can use casualty rings.
Fashion changes like the wind. Single based was all the rage, then multi based mini dioramas became the cats meow. Now skirmish scale games are bringing back single bases. Lucky for me I mostly have single based figures so sabots are my salvation. Hallelujah!
Yeah I've been mostly doing single 20x20 bases and then doing the sabot tray thing, as well, just to be as flexible as possible and not get locked into any one thing, especially since I don't really feel like I know what I'm doing yet :D I guess the (recent) exception is, I've begun a unit that will serve as Galatians and I've done them on 40x40 squares, largely because some of the sculpts would fall over if they were on 20x20 :D
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I'd suggest having a look at Mortem et Gloriam (MeG) - if only because I'm playing and really enjoying it lol . A lot of the players using it use 15mm, however, it is perfectly usable with any figure size.
Shiny new rule book available from The Plastic Soldier Company - https://www.theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/shop/rulesets/mortem-et-gloriam-rules/ - released a few weeks ago.
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I’m a devotee of TTS but as you say you don’t like it I won’t push them.
Hail Caesar has never taken off in our club. What seems popular are “Sword and Spear v2” and Mortem et Gloriam.
Sword and Spear are sold by Great Escape Games with army lists available free online.
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So, newbie question for you guys: how difficult is it to switch back and forth between different games without building a whole new army? I've only started collecting/painting over the past few months and I've kind of defaulted to Hail Caesar, mostly because that's what seems most readily available on the web.
You can use your figures for pretty much any game. My ancient armies were initially used for WRG 4th, then 5th, then 6th, then DBA, DBM, DBMM, Field of Glory, Sword & Spear and now To the Strongest. All with the same figures
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I’m a devotee of TTS but as you say you don’t like it I won’t push them.
Hail Caesar has never taken off in our club. What seems popular are “Sword and Spear v2” and Mortem et Gloriam.
Sword and Spear are sold by Great Escape Games with army lists available free online.
Oops.... (sorry Simon) I forgot, To The Strongest is another great set of rules so another +1 from me :)
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chap posts up to say that he is not keen on grids and is looking to
... recapture the feel of old WFB which did all of these things but just with ancients
respondents proceed to recommend a grid based game and then their own favourite rules regardless of whether they recapture the feel of WFB. Genius
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Oops.... (sorry Simon) I forgot, To The Strongest is another great set of rules so another +1 from me :)
To be fair to To the Strongest I haven't looked into it much but I heave heard it uses a grid system which really puts me off. I already have a coupld of battle mats and don't want to have to get a new one just so I can have a grid
Sword and Spear from Great Escape Games.
I think I've actually got that on my shelf somewhere, the issue is my opponent likes big shiny books with lots of pretty pictures and potted history
he would rather spending £20 on an army book that contained those then just have a free PDF list
The sad reality is finding a CoE player is quite difficult. I had a quick look on the Great Escape Games forum and their opponent finder, shows barely any activity in 6 years.
Hopefully, your opponent will get an army and you get some gaming in
That shouldn't be to much of an issue as it will just be me and him playing it, I'm not a member of a club or anything like that
I'd suggest having a look at Mortem et Gloriam (MeG) - if only because I'm playing and really enjoying it lol . A lot of the players using it use 15mm, however, it is perfectly usable with any figure size.
Shiny new rule book available from The Plastic Soldier Company - https://www.theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/shop/rulesets/mortem-et-gloriam-rules/ - released a few weeks ago.
I'll take a look into that thanks
chap posts up to say that he is not keen on grids and is looking to
... recapture the feel of old WFB which did all of these things but just with ancients
respondents proceed to recommend a grid based game and then their own favourite rules regardless of whether they recapture the feel of WFB. Genius
Its okay I expected as much - this is the internet afterall
I think ultimately because my opponent like big shiny rule books with lots of pictures and potted history the choices are their Clash of Empires or Hail Ceaser
War and Conquest could work but there lists are just PDFs with no fluff
But if I base my guys on 20mm square bases I should be able to move between rulesets
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No, I wasn't suggesting that. There are traces of WAB in Swordpoint (far superior IMHO).
We still use WAB 1.5 at the club quite regularly (though seems like a while back now!).
It is interesting but COE just seemed like WAB 1.5 where someone just crossed out the bits they didn't like! I never found it different enough. It is interesting trying to compare WAB with Swordpoint, although just like WAB, I see the planned schedule for swordpoint supplements is falling apart. Personally I find WAB still has a better game flow than Swordpoint, for some reason I struggle with the momentum concept which seems to have become the slowing down point in the few games I have had.
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Well my mate has just told me that he fully intends to by the Hail Caesar rulebook come payday so that might be that sorted then.
although as I said we use a 6x4 table so I think unit footage of 120mm rather then 160mm might be in order
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Well my mate has just told me that he fully intends to by the Hail Caesar rulebook come payday so that might be that sorted then.
although as I said we use a 6x4 table so I think unit footage of 120mm rather then 160mm might be in order
I think Hail Caesar is a good set to try, it is one of the few rules systems that gives a reason to maintain your lines. I would check the supplements to see if there are any that match your armies as these do offer some additional options.
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We played loads of HC on 6’x4’ using 120mm frontages.
Admittedly this was with 10mm fantasy figures, but it still works well as a game.
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period wise I'm waiting for my opponent to pick something but he has said he ether likes the idea of something with plenty of Phalanx or 'Romans' (he has not specified what period of Roman). Personally I like Persia or Carthage
The Hail Caesar Army Lists: Biblical and Classical supplement includes lists for all of the armies you mention. Warlord is no longer selling the print version, but there are still copies available on Amazon UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hail-Caesar-Army-Lists-Classical/dp/0956358136 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hail-Caesar-Army-Lists-Classical/dp/0956358136) and eBay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=hail+caesar+army+lists+biblical+and+classical&_sacat=0 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=hail+caesar+army+lists+biblical+and+classical&_sacat=0)
Cheers,
Scott
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So am I lol
Jeff always has some good advice so there is a start (see also my thread on Successors)
I'm in the process of playing as many sets as I can either physically or via reviews and YouTube - there are a lot of sets out there. Unfortunately I have to say I really, really didn't like To The Strongest.
Good luck!
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So, newbie question for you guys: how difficult is it to switch back and forth between different games without building a whole new army? I've only started collecting/painting over the past few months and I've kind of defaulted to Hail Caesar, mostly because that's what seems most readily available on the web.
It depends largely on scale and basing. As you want to do 28mm, I would suggest a standard 60mm frontage for all units, this is the old WRG basing that became a de facto standard from the 90's onward. Even games with larger bases such as Impetus use multiples of 60mm.
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It may be the better recommendation to individually base your figures.
Then you can use them for rules that call for that (ie all skirmish rule sets and they are popular for good reason so you may end up playing (or wanting to play) them, and just use movement trays.
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Yeah I've been doing individual 20mm bases. Just wasn't sure sure if I've been going too big on the unit sizes since a lot of the pictures I see online show a lot fewer models per unit.
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Yeah I've been doing individual 20mm bases. Just wasn't sure sure if I've been going too big on the unit sizes since a lot of the pictures I see online show a lot fewer models per unit.
Different rules have different requirements. Some are points, some by units. Some rules it matters that you have a unit and you just represent it.
The more flexible you plan, the more options you would have for the future.
This is a Warlord Games article on basing for Hail Caesar:
https://www.warlordgames.com/hail-caesar-base-sizes/ (https://www.warlordgames.com/hail-caesar-base-sizes/)
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Different rules have different requirements. Some are points, some by units. Some rules it matters that you have a unit and you just represent it.
The more flexible you plan, the more options you would have for the future.
This is a Warlord Games article on basing for Hail Caesar:
https://www.warlordgames.com/hail-caesar-base-sizes/ (https://www.warlordgames.com/hail-caesar-base-sizes/)
Yeah, that's actually the article I've been using as reference! But like I say, I've started wondering how "standard" they are, because it seems like their model totals are a bit higher than what I've seen when browsing people's blogs for inspiration. Like, Warlord says a completed unit of phalangites is 4 rows of 8 soldiers, but then I'll see somewhere else someone posting pictures of their "completed unit" that has like 12 phalangites in it ???
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I like WAB 1.5 (a lot), though the games are few are far between nowadays. You can still pick the rules up relatively cheaply on eBay, along with most of the supplements.
I've played a fair few games of Hail Caesar in 28mm with 160mm frontages, though I do prefer a bigger table than 6 foot wide, you could probably get away with 120mm frontage units. I find that these games need more room simply due to the significant potential mobility of troops.
I tried out Swordpoint for a while with friends in the club. It does have good support from Gripping Beast with a nice spread of supplements, and most importantly they are still in print. Of all of the rules which came after WAB died, this one seems to have picked up a lot of the old WAB community. In the UK there is a reasonable active community, along with local tournaments.
More recently I've really enjoyed playing the Sword and Spear rules from Great Escape Games, which are available in printed form but I bought mine as a pdf. The nice thing about these are that they are easy to pick up, and there are a vast number of lists available free on-line.
I've taken to basing my figures mainly on 40mm squared bases and used sabot unit trays to continue to play many of these games (4 bases for HC or S&S, 3 to 10 bases for WAB or SP). For me this is a storage and transportation practicality as well as meeting a desire for a simple basing aesthetic. If you wanted to go for total rules transferability though, you're probably best off basing your figures individually - it will then also open up the options for playing the recent swathe of skirmish rule sets.
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I would recommend Impetus. 6x4 table is perfect for nice size battle, large bases make for a good look on the table. I love the system.
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Nobody has mentioned Vis Bellica yet. It's a 20 year old ruleset but if you ask the author nicely he still has copies to sell. It's worth a look. I am sure Westbury won't mind me saying that it is one of the rulesets he is currently looking at and playtesting , so he will have an opinion on it fairly soon, one way or the other.
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Nice thing about basing on 40mm is compatibility with lots of different systems. You can play WAB, HC, Age of Hannibal, et al (as well as all the DBx games) without rebasing.
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Nice thing about basing on 40mm is compatibility with lots of different systems. You can play WAB, HC, Age of Hannibal, et al (as well as all the DBx games) without rebasing.
I usually go 40mm wide and about 60mm deep nowadays to accommodate for the tendency for 28mm mini's being larger.
It gives a little more wriggle room so the mini's can still be seen to 'talk' to one another in the ranks.