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Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Doom Beard 78 on 17 July 2020, 03:16:27 PM
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Many moons ago I collected and painted a 28mm TAG Polish army for the 17th century. The army slowly nears completion . I now find myself contemplating rules. The army had been collected for Warhammer ECW using The Deluge fan supplement. But, try as I might, I could find not persuade any of the gamers I know to try them.
Since, then I have read Pike and Shotte , which left me cold, Tercio( which seemed overly drawn out) Father Tilley( which seems to require vast numbers of figures and is nigh on incomprehensible) 1644 and For King and Parliament. Thus far FKAP seems the most promising and I have seen an Eastern variant. However, the rules require a grid and I am reluctant to splash out the cash for a game mat.
So, the question is are there any 28mm viable , non grid rules for the period.
I had played FOG:Am and they were not for me, so I hope that no one suggests the FOG:R variant.
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First off - sounds like a great project. I'm sure the army will look splendid on the table!
Now as for rules:
Well, there's always Fields of Gl... okay, okay. :D
I heard good things about For King and Parliament. Grids on wargames tables don't necessarily have to be a problem. We played Rommel (which uses a grid as well) a while ago on our regular gaming table. What we did was use small markers to depict the corners of the squares/rectangles. You can either use small round stickers or washers with a tuft of grass on top or something like that. A bit more work to set up than just getting a griddy map of coure, but it worked rather well for us and has less of a visual impact than drawn-up grids.
Aaaaanyway, here are some suggestions of mine:
Baroque (based on Impetus) - Covers 16th and 17th century, works as intended, several army lists with points and all available.
In Deo Veritas - A rather new set of rules by Helion. Covers the 17th century. Pretty fast to play, detail can be added via modifiers and so on, but in general unit classifications are pretty broad. I just wrote a review: https://www.tabletopstories.net/language/en/2020/07/in-deo-veritas-rules-review/ (https://www.tabletopstories.net/language/en/2020/07/in-deo-veritas-rules-review/)
Twilight of Divine Right - Released in 2019, covers 1618-1660 (ish) in particular, but there's enough wiggle room to add some decades in the front and in the back of that timeframe. More detailled, but really good period feel. Review and Battle reports here: https://www.tabletopstories.net/language/en/?s=twilight (https://www.tabletopstories.net/language/en/?s=twilight). Thing is that the rules are very much scenario based, and while there are three scenario books out now, these only cover the thirty years war, the english civil war, and (to a lesser extent) wars on the Spanish peninsular. Adapting the rules for Eastern conflicts in and around Poland shouldn't be too hard though.
Tilly's Very Bad Day (free to download) also aims to be a fast-play set of rules. Haven't tried it yet, but intend to. The author is very active on his blog, developing ideas and asking for feedback. I think adapations for Polish affairs have been talked about on his blog.
Then there's By Fire and Sword of course. Which covers exactly what you wanna do (I assume). Aimed at 15mm figures of course, but I'm sure it can be adapted.
In case you're open for skirmishing (~60-100 figures a side), I suggest Forged in Blood by Ganesha Games or of course Sharp Practice2 (there's a 17th century variant in one of the Lardies specials).
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Have you looked at "By Fire and Sword"? They were written for the eastern renaissance.
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How about "Pikemen's Lament."
Fast and fun.
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I'd still recommend pike and Shotte.
Very fast, good games, and you can really tinker with the unit stat lines. If you were going to use warhammer then they are the closest anyway.
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By Fire and Sword are great, you would need to increase ranges, but the easiest thing is to check your base size against the recommended one and increase in proportion.
Surprisingly, for a Polish centred game, Winged Hussars do not feature heavily in the army lists.
Army lists are not like most games, there are no individual points for figures, or even units, you choose a strength level and the army list shows you which units you get. You can customise it by adding extra troops to some units or adding in optional units or upgrading unit quality, but it works quite nicely and gives fairly balanced forces. Also the strength level you choose does not need to match your opponent, you can choose 5 or 6 points and find you are facing a 12 point horde.
The game is scenario driven, in most scenarios the big force attacks, but in some the small force is the attacker....
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I would recommend you have another shot of absinthe and rethink your pike ad shotte phobia. It is a very playable set of rules.
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Let me throw my two cents into the ring in favor of Pikemans Lament for skirmish games and Tercio (the version from Magister Militium) for larger battles. Tercio is rather densely written; there are a LOT of rules covered in those few pages but they play fairly quickly and, because the play alternates between the players, nobody is sitting and watching the other guy complete his moves. My group has played a fair many games using it (most much larger than the size envisioned by the rules-writer) and we can usually get done in under three hours. Take a look a a few of our battle AARs to see what the rules look like in action; https://epicureanwars.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html (https://epicureanwars.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html)
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Hi George,
There was the By Fire and Sword rule set, mean't mainly for 15 mil but could be used for 28's if you convert distances etc. It does seem to concentrate on the 'eastern'. I've never had the pleasure so it might be worth checking out some reviews(?)
By Fire and Sword Homepage:
http://www.fireandsword.wargamer.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=58 (http://www.fireandsword.wargamer.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=58)
I noticed that they have a forum link on their website which might give you a better idea of the game mechanics?
Hope this helps matey :)
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Thanks for the suggestions. The hardest part is finding guys to game against.
At the rate I am going I may just have to collect a TAG Ottoman army and provide both armies
Are Pikemens Lament based on Dragon Rampant? I played it a few times but it failed to click with me, seemed a very random sort of game
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Thanks for the suggestions. The hardest part is finding guys to game against.
At the rate I am going I may just have to collect a TAG Ottoman army and provide both armies
You should! Then, when the coast is clear I can jump on a train and we can get some Early Renaissance games in. I'll be gagging to roll some dice by then! ;) 8)
Are Pikemens Lament based on Dragon Rampant? I played it a few times but it failed to click with me, seemed a very random sort of game
Yes, they employ the same basic rule mechanics. I thought Lion Rampant and Dragon Rampant along with The Men Who Would Be Kings a really good fun set of rules. Fun being the basic premise.
I do know what you mean about the feel of the rules not being quite right for a historical period (fun though they are). The Dragon Rampant games we played were hilarious and I did really enjoy the experience.
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realistically an Ottoman project would start next year. I already have painted Akinci and Delhi horse , plus i did paint a few janissaries.
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realistically an Ottoman project would start next year. I already have painted Akinci and Delhi horse , plus i did paint a few janissaries.
I can wait lol
I have no idea when it will actually be safe for me to venture outdoors again..... ??? ??? ???
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I found a thread on a forum elsewhere where people had adapted Fire and Sword to 28mm, it just requires a large table. Some years ago. before I grew the beard of doom, i was at SALUTE and the chaps from Fire and Sword ran me through a game which I recall I quite enjoyed. They were adamant that the rules only worked in 15mm, I suspect that as they were selling their own range of 15mm figures that they had a salesman's interest in saying that.
I shall investigate further.
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I found a thread on a forum elsewhere where people had adapted Fire and Sword to 28mm
Which would be?
Some years ago. before I grew the beard of doom, i was at SALUTE and the chaps from Fire and Sword ran me through a game which I recall I quite enjoyed. They were adamant that the rules only worked in 15mm, I suspect that as they were selling their own range of 15mm figures that they had a salesman's interest in saying that.
They do have their own range of mini's. They were actually really nice considering they are 15 mil.
I shall investigate further.
Cool. Let me know what the forum is named please mate and I will take a peek too.
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atheling- over on TMP various people said that they had Fire and Sword in 28mm
I agree that thier 15mm figures look great , but from previous expeeirnce I simply do not enjoy painting 15mm figures and the prospect of painting a 100 or more of them is simply not for me
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spotted this on their website
Figure and unit scale: 1 figure resembles 15-18 real soldiers. This means that an average banner of Polish horse will number 9 figures grouped on 3 bases (about 120 -150 soldiers in reality).
If you want to play bigger games 1 figure should be counted as 50 men, this will allow to treat one base with three figures as a full banner of cavalry.
so far I have 16 Hussars, 12 Pancierni, 37 mounted cossacks, 48 Haiduks, 24 Ratjars ( Essentially the Reitar style of pistol cavalry) 40 Noble levy ( a mix of Croats, Hungarians and Cossacks) and 30 cossack foot
Applying the ratio of 3 figures to a base gives
5x Hussars
4 Pancierni
12 Cossacks
16 Haiduk
8 Reitar
13 noble levy ( assorted medium cavalry)
10 Cossack foot
Probably a good start for the Poles . Still to are 18 Krakow Militia and 2 cannon
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spotted this on their website
Figure and unit scale: 1 figure resembles 15-18 real soldiers. This means that an average banner of Polish horse will number 9 figures grouped on 3 bases (about 120 -150 soldiers in reality).
If you want to play bigger games 1 figure should be counted as 50 men, this will allow to treat one base with three figures as a full banner of cavalry.
so far I have 16 Hussars, 12 Pancierni, 37 mounted cossacks, 48 Haiduks, 24 Ratjars ( Essentially the Reitar style of pistol cavalry) 40 Noble levy ( a mix of Croats, Hungarians and Cossacks) and 30 cossack foot
Applying the ratio of 3 figures to a base gives
5x Hussars
4 Pancierni
12 Cossacks
16 Haiduk
8 Reitar
13 noble levy ( assorted medium cavalry)
10 Cossack foot
Probably a good start for the Poles . Still to are 18 Krakow Militia and 2 cannon
Sounds brill. 8) Maybe I should order some Ottomans from TAG and we can arrange a game in about a years time- seriously, what do you think?
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That seems like a realistic plan. I just ordered the rules £12 on Wayland Games for the stripped down version , i.e just the rules without all the history s that version is about £50
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That seems like a realistic plan. I just ordered the rules £12 on Wayland Games for the stripped down version , i.e just the rules without all the history s that version is about £50
I'll take another look at the TAG page tomorrow. I do love those mini's.
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Regarding rulebooks for BFaS: core rulebook (just rules) is available as free downloand:
http://www.fireandsword.wargamer.pl/index.php?option=com_rokdownloads&view=file&Itemid=86&id=136:byfireandswordrulebook
You can also download Republic in Flames, which contains all armies from main rulebook:
http://www.fireandsword.wargamer.pl/index.php?option=com_rokdownloads&view=file&Itemid=85&id=138:republicinflames27062019
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Regarding rulebooks for BFaS: core rulebook (just rules) is available as free downloand:
http://www.fireandsword.wargamer.pl/index.php?option=com_rokdownloads&view=file&Itemid=86&id=136:byfireandswordrulebook
You can also download Republic in Flames, which contains all armies from main rulebook:
http://www.fireandsword.wargamer.pl/index.php?option=com_rokdownloads&view=file&Itemid=85&id=138:republicinflames27062019
Thanks :) Is there a general history with the army lists?
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Thanks for sharing that link. There is a decent ammount of history included in the army lists. Its inspiring me to put in an order for some more Poles.
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Thanks for sharing that link. There is a decent ammount of history included in the army lists. Its inspiring me to put in an order for some more Poles.
Let me know if you do. I'm still going to go for Ottomans as it's an army that I have always been interested in- OK, from a Late Medieval perspective but I cam make do with a Renaissance army. ;) :D
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Atheling , I have some Delhis and Akinci from a WAB Albanian army I used about ten years ago at the WAB weekend ( great days) Plus I had started work on a unit of Janissary Guard for the Poles ( there was a unit of Moldavians recruited for having long moustaches who were dressed in Janissary uniforms). Here's a bad photo
A project for 2021 I think
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Atheling , I have some Delhis and Akinci from a WAB Albanian army I used about ten years ago at the WAB weekend ( great days) Plus I had started work on a unit of Janissary Guard for the Poles ( there was a unit of Moldavians recruited for having long moustaches who were dressed in Janissary uniforms). Here's a bad photo
A project for 2021 I think
I'm in. one question though, is the TAG range quite comprehensive in their coverage the Ottomans?
I ask as there seems to be a lack of heavily armoured troops.
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I don't really know; I'm not very knowledgeable on the Ottoman army of the 17th century. Possibly the heavily armoured infantry Voynuks of the 15th century had passed by. In terms of the cavalry, there are some fully barded warhorses in the Sipahis range
Some one on this forum is bound to know
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I don't really know; I'm not very knowledgeable on the Ottoman army of the 17th century. Possibly the heavily armoured infantry Voynuks of the 15th century had passed by. In terms of the cavalry, there are some fully barded warhorses in the Sipahis range
Yeah, I was thinking more armoured Janissaries?
Some one on this forum is bound to know
I hope so. Some pictorial sources would be great if you're reading ;) :)
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Well as for Tag range, from what I See the range is quite comprehensive, however It lacks unarmored horse archers (there are only a few poses).
The biggest problem with Tag eastern renaissance range in generał is its historical accuracy. If you want accurate armies be prepared to use green stuff alot.
As for the heavy armoured infantry in the XVIIth century - there were none. Possible exceptions might have been found in sieges were some jannisaries who lead forays to be promoted to silahdars.
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Interesting thread here, I am collecting Poles and Cossacks for the Deluge period *1650's) ideally that I can also mainly use for Great Northenr War. I have them in 28mm an dhope to use them for By Fire and Sword.
For the light horse archers Earfare have alovely range of both Ottoman and Tatars. Watchign this with interest.
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Interesting thread here, I am collecting Poles and Cossacks for the Deluge period *1650's) ideally that I can also mainly use for Great Northenr War. I have them in 28mm an dhope to use them for By Fire and Sword.
For the light horse archers Earfare have alovely range of both Ottoman and Tatars. Watchign this with interest.
I thinking of going Ottoman; I'm OK up the the cusp of the Late Middle ages/Early Renaissance but after that I know next to nothing.
This is a 'keep ourselves sane' project that Doombeard (feels well strange calling you that mate :) )and I have decided upon and to play a game or three sometime next year.
I might go for Poles??? Not sure yet.
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I found the Warfare Miniatures site at
https://www.warfareminiaturesusa.com/collections/ottoman-turkish-army-1600-1740
For whatever reason they don't really float my boat.
Atheling- I thought to retire my Father Georgi identity but some of my other nicknames are a bit niche so as I had been playing a lot of doom metal, the name stuck
I have been skimming the rulebook( when your day job requires you to read rules and advise people on what the rules require them to do and then have to get them to follow the rules, it makes you less inclined to do it in your spare time) and the combat and shooting mechanisms seem relatively straight forward ( you do not have a page of combat modifiers to work through) . Movement rates seem surprisingly high- cavalry have a basic move of 20cm but this doubles to 40cm if they decide to charge of march, while infantry go 10cm for basic movement and 15cm for a charge. These seem to be close to metric equivalents for the wab movement rates ( 20cm being 8") so, we could simply use the standard movement rates rather than the common idea of converting 1cm -1inch ( which would require us to play on 6 " deep tables) . Some areas of the rules will require a modification- in combat all stands in base to base fight and any unengaged stand within 2cm of an enemy stand also gets to fight. The 2cm will need to increase. There are also some cases where commanders have a command radius and that will need to be adjusted
Basing is then the next issue- basing is one of those interminably tedious topics - my cavalry is all singly based on 25x50 and I have around 100 painted already for the Poles so I'll be damned if I have to rebase those. So possibly go either 75x50 or 80x50 for cavalry with 3 to a base. Infantry could then be on on 80mm frontages ( though 3 figures on an 80 wide base looks odd for close order infantry) or 60 and fudge it a bit.
If you wanted to go Polish, we could do Poland v Lithuanian rebels. The armies are very similar.
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I found the Warfare Miniatures site at
https://www.warfareminiaturesusa.com/collections/ottoman-turkish-army-1600-1740
I painted up some Swedes and other Europeans for Barry a few years ago. They are nice but they definitely don't fit with any of the ranges I'm thinking about at present as they are on the slight side.
Atheling- I thought to retire my Father Georgi identity but some of my other nicknames are a bit niche so as I had been playing a lot of doom metal, the name stuck
As long as Guy wasn't responsible!! lol He's more 80's prog rock isn't he? ;) ;D
I have been skimming the rulebook( when your day job requires you to read rules and advise people on what the rules require them to do and then have to get them to follow the rules, it makes you less inclined to do it in your spare time) and the combat and shooting mechanisms seem relatively straight forward ( you do not have a page of combat modifiers to work through) . Movement rates seem surprisingly high- cavalry have a basic move of 20cm but this doubles to 40cm if they decide to charge of march, while infantry go 10cm for basic movement and 15cm for a charge. These seem to be close to metric equivalents for the wab movement rates ( 20cm being 8") so, we could simply use the standard movement rates rather than the common idea of converting 1cm -1inch ( which would require us to play on 6 " deep tables) . Some areas of the rules will require a modification- in combat all stands in base to base fight and any unengaged stand within 2cm of an enemy stand also gets to fight. The 2cm will need to increase. There are also some cases where commanders have a command radius and that will need to be adjusted
Basing is then the next issue- basing is one of those interminably tedious topics - my cavalry is all singly based on 25x50 and I have around 100 painted already for the Poles so I'll be damned if I have to rebase those. So possibly go either 75x50 or 80x50 for cavalry with 3 to a base. Infantry could then be on on 80mm frontages ( though 3 figures on an 80 wide base looks odd for close order infantry) or 60 and fudge it a bit.
If you wanted to go Polish, we could do Poland v Lithuanian rebels. The armies are very similar.
Sounds good. Poles is it :)
We can always change the movement to suite out tastes
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so Atheling, poles v Lithuanian rebels for 2021, maybe September as that will give me time to get some painting done. looking at the army lits, I need more Ratjar /Reiter
PS- Guy is more sisters of mercy/Fields of the Nephilim than Marilion or Pallas or IQ
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so Atheling, poles v Lithuanian rebels for 2021, maybe September as that will give me time to get some painting done. looking at the army lits, I need more Ratjar /Reiter
Well, as soon as it is safe for me to get out and about mate so pencil in 2021.
PS- Guy is more sisters of mercy/Fields of the Nephilim than Marilion or Pallas or IQ
Each to their own ;) :)
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I had you down as a Seige/ Discharge/ Saciliege kind of guy
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I had you down as a Seige/ Discharge/ Saciliege kind of guy
I'll PM you ;)
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you could also try the Beneath the Lilly Banners 3rd edition. they released the eastern wars and great northern war supplement, with information on Ottomans and Polish(as well as all great northern war participants).
it covers 1670-1720, but i think it should cover combat during the deluge just fine. the books are also really nice looking.
I was in the same boat, not really having settled on a ruleset. BtLB ended up being my option once I really took a look at it.
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you could also try the Beneath the Lilly Banners 3rd edition. they released the eastern wars and great northern war supplement, with information on Ottomans and Polish(as well as all great northern war participants).
it covers 1670-1720, but i think it should cover combat during the deluge just fine. the books are also really nice looking.
I was in the same boat, not really having settled on a ruleset. BtLB ended up being my option once I really took a look at it.
I've got the first edition. I remember it being passed around the SESWC (Edinburgh club) when Barry had just published it. I have yet to play a game though :-X
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the Big difference between 2nd and 3rd is that Barry moved to a different die type for different qualities of troops. so you any troop type needs a 6+ to hit when firing muskets for instance, but Raw troops use a D6, Drilled use a D8, and Veteran troops use a D10. shaken drops your dice by 1 type, and first fire raises your dice by one type. other wise most other modifiers are to numbers of dice.
I liked 2nd ed, i really like 3rd ed.
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the Big difference between 2nd and 3rd is that Barry moved to a different die type for different qualities of troops. so you any troop type needs a 6+ to hit when firing muskets for instance, but Raw troops use a D6, Drilled use a D8, and Veteran troops use a D10. shaken drops your dice by 1 type, and first fire raises your dice by one type. other wise most other modifiers are to numbers of dice.
I liked 2nd ed, i really like 3rd ed.
I'll think about ordering one but if I'm honest I've got three projects on the go and that's really all I can manage for now :)
Barry's rules are superb, not to mention densely packed with beautiful pictures.
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I did consider those rules but £30 for the main rulebook, which covers a period I have zero interest in, and then another £30 for the supplement which is set after the hey day of the winged lancer4, was hardly a viable proposition. £12 for the fire and sword light rulebook is doable , given the impossibility of finding an opponent round my way- £60 is just crazy