Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: Ignatieff on August 16, 2009, 09:52:06 AM
-
Time to update my Bolshevik cavalry forces and equipe them with some flags. Does anyone have any reliable sources for these, and in particular Red Cossack colours?
On another note, The League of Extraordinary Kreigspeilers has just finished (last weekend), its latest opus: 'End of Empires'. Cracking six month e-mail campaign in the lead up to a typical 4 day lead bender! (plus 31 bottles of wine and 133 bottles of beer - I know, I had to sneak to the bottle bank!).
Unfortunately however, our usual master photographer was on holiday, so we dont have any super photos to share this time (booo!), though there may be a few of the snaps us amateurs took tunr out OK. Happy to share briefs, etc if there is any interest.
Next stop, the lapping waters of the Indian Ocean on the East African Coast, for 'The Hunt for Red October', a tale of a red raiding pocket battle ship amidst the chaos of post WWI East Africa!
-
There was no set pattern. Just use the same type of scheme as used by the infantry, but a bit smaller.
"Red Cossacks" is tricky, and I don't like the term. The Soviets had a strong dislike of Cossack privileges, and were not going to distinguish units by the basis of being Cossack. Of course a lot of their cavalry units had a strong Cossack membership, but the Red tried to dilute this as much as possible. So their flags would be no different. I suppose they might follow the traditional pattern and have that diamond shape with the unit number in it.
The Soviet units with too many Cossacks in tended to be their very worst units. Many defected to the enemy en masse: entire brigades sometimes. Why wargamers want these units baffles me slightly. They were still defecting in WWII for that matter.
-
It's only wargaming mate!
-
I don't get it either
what could be better to collect for the RCW wargamer if not cossacks?
with the appropriate uniforms you can use them for almost every fraction
and yes, of course they disliked the Bolsheviks or Soviets
they have a social structure of their own and don't like to be amalgamated into the communist culture diarrhoea
and apart from wargaming, what is bad about a strong traditional background that withstands the modern mainstream culture and society?
Putin is reinstating the Cossack units nowadys it seems - but I wouldn't trust him in their place
another totalitarian regime to abuse them for it's purpose
-
Wargamers often ask how their "Red Cossacks" differ from other Soviet cavalry in uniforms or flags. They don't, because there was no thing as "Red Cossacks". Just some units with lots of Cossacks in them.
As to whether it matters, well that depends which side of the RCW/BoB debate you fall. I don't like units designated "Red Cossacks" to be higher morale or fighting ability than ordinary Soviet cavalry because I try, within the bounds of the game, to get relative merits right. Others prefer the BoB approach and have large amounts of fictional elements in their game and reality takes a back seat to colour. Neither method of gaming is better of course, just different.
But when a person asks for "reliable sources" for flags, I think it reasonable to assume they are seeking reliable sources and not something made up. "It's only wargaming mate" doesn't really help him.
I'm wrong about the Cossacks in the Red Army, show me how I am wrong. If I'm right, the issue is why does something accurate bother you in any way?
-
again, I don't get it
who said you were wrong about the Cossacks in the red army?
there is nothing wrong with accuracy, if it can be maintained in wargaming terms (after all, we are not doing reenactment and even there nothing is 100% - here a joke from the scene: what is historically accurate? steal it from an excavation and put it on!)
no wargame can simulate everything 100% accurate - or you end up making your own miniatures, spending years to build up an army and a day for just one turn of the game
the trick is to choose a level of accuracy which is playable
and that is of course a matter of personal taste
-
So, to get back to my original question, does anyone have any visuals on Bolshevik cavalry flags. Please......
-
You want pictures of actual flags? And only cavalry ones? They will be few and far between.
I can do historical Red Army flags, but not cavalry.
http://www.gauntletinternational.com/RCWflags.htm
http://www.vexillographia.ru/russia/index.htm
It is very hard to find flags where both sides are known, so even finding a photograph will usually only give half the story since the Reds did not have the same devices on both sides.
If you want generic bits suitable for constructing your own flags, then that's no problem. I can construct a flag pretty quickly once I have a few details of the unit.
-
Thanks Mark.
-
just out of curiosity
I do understand the use of flags in propaganda, and as a rallying point for infantry
but apart from colourful wargaming
wouldn't we expect that the most "modern" cavalry of history could find carrying the colours in combat a little bit cumbersome and useless?
I mean, are there any actual pictures showing fighting cavalry with flags?
though I must laugh at my own question, just imagining a 1918 photographer trying to get a picture of charging cavalry....
-
This is the nearest to it that I know of. It's a photo taken during battle by T.E. Lawrence of mounted troops in action (more blurry cavalry are charging in the background). Standard bearer thrown in for good measure. Sharifian capture of Aqaba, 1917.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Plynkes/xaqaba_capture.jpg)
-
just out of curiosity
I do understand the use of flags in propaganda, and as a rallying point for infantry
but apart from colourful wargaming
wouldn't we expect that the most "modern" cavalry of history could find carrying the colours in combat a little bit cumbersome and useless?
I've pondered this, and I think there is some confusion between types of flags.
The ones we tend to see are big, colourful regimental flags. If carried in battle at all - and I suspect mostly much less pretty ones were - they were only to mark the location of HQs. Infantry HQs definitely had regimental flags, because I have seen ones captured in Poland. (There's a famous photo of some, plus some in the Warsaw military museum.) I imagine cavalry HQs were similar.
In the open countryside of much of Russia with no landmarks, finding people is a real issue. I do know that even artillery batteries used flags in the RCW for this reason. Recognising one side from the other was a problem too.
Smaller units - battalions and companies - had much smaller and simpler flags. There are some examples of them in the Russian museum website from the White coloured regiments, which seem to have been carried on rifles. An example from the Kornilovs is given in the Osprey on the Whites. I have seen a small captured Red infantry company flag and photos of similar ones carried by cavalry. I'm not sure if they were rallying points, to pass orders or so HQs could be located, but I'm sure they were carried by at least some companies and squadrons.
Lastly, I have seen written descriptions of Soviets carrying large red flags in the front line. I'm not sure whether for morale reasons or technical reasons. I've never seen written descriptions of Whites doing it, but that proves little.
I'd guess most White cavalry used the old Imperial system for telling individual squadrons apart. It's quite complicated and gives really boring flags, so I have never bothered mastering it.
So, as far as I can tell, yes, they carried flags into battle. The big, flash ones should probably be at the rear with regimental HQs. Smaller, or at least simpler, ones can be given to front line units.
(In practice, of course, while my HQs have big flags my units do too, to make them easier to see.)
-
thank you for the picture!!! @plynkes
well, quoting flags in war museums is not the slightest proof for them being used in battle....
yes, of course it makes sense for infantry and artillery tu use flags
they are slow or stationary and need to be recognised or rally
cavalry relying on swift surprising attacks or sneaky approaches, in any way an elite force, would hardly need this, and it would reveal them....
I do not want to argue about theory - there are many acceptable opinions
Plynkes post was what I asked for -
is there evidence of flags used by RCW cavalry in actual combat? not to mark HQ or to parade - as there is evidence for RCW infantry using flags in actual combat, for obvious reasons
-
I am still lwaiting for Brigade Games to come with Russian Cavalry for the RCW and WWI before I delve into the period. I thought there was a lot of cavalry involved in the Russian Civil War?
-
a huge lot
think about the cossack uprise in 1918 to start with
why BG cavalry?
CC too expensive/big/ not nice enough?
-
I am still lwaiting for Brigade Games to come with Russian Cavalry for the RCW and WWI before I delve into the period. I thought there was a lot of cavalry involved in the Russian Civil War?
I suggested that to Lon on his Yahoo group. I'd love to see some more cavalry.
But y'know, there's already a lot of cavalry out there. Mine is almost exclusively Copplestone, with one unit made up of Old Glory. The Copplestones are great with a lot of variety. Battle Honors makes some nice stuff too, although I have not seen their cavalry firsthand: http://oldglory15s.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1_221_706_727&sort=3a
-
well, quoting flags in war museums is not the slightest proof for them being used in battle....
<sigh> Of course it is, when they are enemy flags captured in battle.
yes, of course it makes sense for infantry and artillery tu use flags
they are slow or stationary and need to be recognised or rally
Actually there is a reference is from Sergei Mamontov, who fought in the horse artillery for his unit's flag. Not slow. No need to rally. He speaks of being able to look around and see which cavalry unit was which by virtue of the flags present. He talks about how that made the job of couriers much easier.
cavalry relying on swift surprising attacks or sneaky approaches, in any way an elite force, would hardly need this, and it would reveal them....
You can't really sneak up on someone with a division of cavalry, with massed tachankas.
It's not really how I see Denikin and Wrangel operating with cavalry. Budenny neither. They used them in mass, and were prepared to charge frontally if they had to. Flags were essential for manouevring large bodies.
I can see that a detached cavalry squadron might not need a flag, since it would only have itself to rally on. But a small flag is easily hidden. Just lower it when you don't want anyone to see it. The White cavalry mostly carried lances, so a flag didn't make them any more visible.
is there evidence of flags used by RCW cavalry in actual combat? not to mark HQ or to parade - as there is evidence for RCW infantry using flags in actual combat, for obvious reasons
Why is marking HQs not "combat"? I'm serious. Cavalry commanders do not lead from the rear (not if they are any good). Even Army commanders like Budenny and Wrangel were at the front line. Regimental cavalry HQs would be in the thick of it. How would a messenger find a cavalry commander without some flag or other?
I think the reverse logic needs to be thought about. What did cavalry do with their flags when they reached combat. Discard them?
-
good argument
so, I am getting an idea of how to imagine the RCW cavalry
seems to be the more traditional style
thanks for the quotation, that's what I called for
<sigh myself> displaying "captured" flags is propaganda
do you really believe the many war correspondant drawings of the 19th C showing cavalry fighting for a flag?
do you really think cavalrymen 1918 had nothing better to do amidst MG salvoes than fighting for a flag instead of crossing the open as fast as possible? this is not balaclava, and even that was stupid for that time
already the napoleonic infantry displayed only the pole of the flag in battle and not the cloth itself, because it was too valued
apart from the revolutionary era, where lots of flags were displayed for propaganda, the charging troops with waving flags are a myth in art and cinema of which we must get rid - of course flags look nice on the tabletop and help identify units, especially in 15 mm but we like them because we saw them in art and cinema
wondering how many flagpoles must have broken on trotzky's train travelling with 75 km/h :D
-
Everything I have read suggests that the RCW was a reversion to a style of warfare reminiscent of how the Great War was meant to be. Yes, there were MGs and barbed wire, but cavalry still formed up and charged with lance and sabre. Infantry still advanced in lines (well, not always, but the poorer quality did).
My guess is that the Polish "captured" flags were picked up off the ground after the battle. I did not intend to suggest that they were actually captured from the hands of the Soviets. Merely that they had been carried close enough to the front line to be left behind.
As for carrying them in the front line - I'm absolutely certain the Soviets did it. Perhaps only until close to the enemy and not into any very close range, but they definitely advanced with them flying. There's too many written references. Generally I fall very much on the side of "realism" in my RCW gaming (not necessarily elsewhere mind) but I have not the slightest issue with flags in my units.
-
must look very nice
and if there is written source, more the better if you like it accurate
no problem with flags, I intend to have some standardbearers myself
-
I have found one picture of bolshevik cavalry carrying flags in my files.
It is from book published in Eastern Germany in the 1980's, the caption says "1st cavalry army before the counter offensive against the troops of intervention of bourgeois-imperialist Poland end of May 1920" (was thinking this might add a little atmosphere ;) )
The flag in the front I guess is red with in yellow outlined star, hammer and sickle.
Think the variety of uniforms is interesting, particularly the fact a cossack in proper dress is wearing the red banner.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/tom_aargau/DSC00010.jpg)
-
wow!!!
what a fantastic picture!!!
and the diversity in dress
well, let's hope the picture is not mislabeled, because I can't recognise a bolshevik symbol (maybe I'm blind)
but so far for the amalgamation of ethnicities in a uniformed red army
and that 1920 - give me a break!!!
thank you for the picture
-
No problem, happy to help.
I tried to enlarge the flag, on the printed picture in the book the outline of a five pointed star can be better seen, and I believe the inner contour is a sickle.
The picture quality is not too good, my scanner has given up on me, and I had to use a handheld camera.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/tom_aargau/DSC00010a.jpg)
-
A couple more pictures of what seems to be bolshevik cavalry.
The small flag on the lower picture seems to be a flag of a 63rd regiment (you can see the Cyrillic "Polka", i.e. the second case of polk = regiment). Unfortunately, it is not possible to read the top line of the flag.
Again, there is a lot of variety in dress.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/tom_aargau/3399895890_350cd59ce4.jpg)
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s304/tom_aargau/1sr1.jpg)
-
looklook
thank you very much
well, I guess all desires fulfilled Ignatieff
especially the third pic looks very authentic
so, there seem to be two kinds
bigger and smaller
-
so, there seem to be two kinds
bigger and smaller
Yes, exactly what I said above.
Given that these are pretty much the three most famous pictures of the Konnarmiya, I had assumed you knew of them. I did not bring them up because they are all clearly HQ groups and are not in action. The first picture is perhaps the most famous photo of the RCW.
let's hope the picture is not mislabeled, because I can't recognise a bolshevik symbol
Two of the guys are wearing a Budenovka. The mixing of different style Cossack dress is a dead giveaway too. (Quite apart from the man in kaftan, the guy front right is wearing a Cossack burka and the guy front left is almost certainly a Don Cossack - note the nagaika whip).
All three photos are pretty typical of the Konnarmiya, who were notoriously shabby and composed largely of Cossacks.
I can do more photos of this sort.
-
I want to see if they will be compatible with the Cobblestn Figures. I am looking for variety and compatabilty. It worked well with the WWI East Arican Armies, I am hoping it will work well with the Russian Civil War though I am starting to see scale creep with the White Russians decidely bigger than the bolshevik fgures of Cobblestone. I mount all my modern figures on fender washers so it does show. Did you know that the two gunned armed Brendan Frazier Cobblestone Armed Archealogist got me started in this period.
-
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2600/3847288358_69492c50e5.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3458/3847288438_548ea874ee.jpg)
Belorussian Partisans 1918
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2455/3847288510_9847dac71d.jpg)
Flag in the distance
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2444/3846498427_984987794e.jpg)
I suspect this is post war.
-
OK, fine
(no, I am not a specialist on RCW, and I surely do not know all pictures (-;)
so, let me number the pictures and discuss the authenticity
1- while showing a HQ, but not in combat it looks very authentic. the officers seem to be discussing some action - I read that the hat with 3 points had something to do with elte units (or comissars?) ist that true and what is it called?
2- (the book cover) this is clearly a propaganda picture and as such ranks for me low in authenticity - "hey guys, you, you and you - you are looking cool! line up here and let me take a picture... ehmm, why don't you switch hats with that guy. oh yes, could you please shoulder your rifles? and maybe we can have that ammo belt too?"
3- though, not in combat, clearly in action and very authentic - maybe they are listening to an officer or comissar
4- same as above, at rest or in preparation for some action
5- propaganda picture
6- casual picture, very interesting cause it says something about tactical subunits. I see one small flag, can't say if in the front or rear unit - maybe someone sees better
7- more of the propaganda style, clearly a parade, so as neat as it gets, again very interesting for subunit size - I count seven subunits and a baggage train (or tachankas?), all in ranks of 2-3 - the guys in front look all very neat and have their sabres drawn (not the others), only they carry a flag - were there elite squadrons/troops ??
since almost all can be seen, my rough estimate would be some 200 in total, with the first two subunits counting fewer men - so a squadron? 2 troops with respectively 3-4 platoons??
and now we need someone to read the flags!
alexej witchheimerowich, would you please?? ;)
-
A serious issue with trying to determine which pictures are real is that many date from movies made after the war.
#1 I'm pretty sure is genuine, just because the amount of coverage it got. It's on the cover of the official Soviet encyclopedia of the war. (I don't think the hat has three points: I think it has the sides folded up but not tied back, so pointing out.)
#2 is on the cover of the English version of Budenny's memoirs. However it does have a certain "stagey" feel to it.
#3 has a copy in Budenny's memoirs. Very odd mix of men: the guy standing appears to have a helmet on!
#5 is staged in terms of the photo, but the flag is not very flashy. I suspect it is real.
#7 I would guess is either post war or an elite unit. It is odd that the commander has a furashka when the men have Budennovkas. I included it more because of the different style of flag. It is the size of a typical RCW Soviet cavalry squadron (including tachankas).
-
aha
3- why is the mixture odd? and why not a helmet? I understand that helmets were not popular, but it is this mixture that gives a real feel
5- of course real, but staged
7-so you see tachankas. but why post war? when were the pogonny reintroduced? and when did they stop using tachankas?
if I were to interpret, I would go for elite, at least for the front group, and since the officer looks quite different (Furashka, there is a small spot on the band that could be the place were the cockade was removed and there is no red star. also notice the standup collar - zoom it and take a look: seems like it is not plain- so he could be a former tsarist officer) could be very well a very authentic war picture
very well
so, now waiting for the translations.... ;)
-
I have tried to read what is on the flags, the only thing that I can really make out is what I have written before, plus on #4 it says "vsewo mira" in the second line, means "of the whole world". So, it is clearly a slogan, what it says in the first line is anybody's guess. It is more than one word, but really could be anything.
-
maybe freedem or communism to the whole world?
-
Freedom in Russian is "cvoboda" and communism, well, communism. Could be either or both.
-
well, I leave this to the specialists :(
-
Splendid gentlemen. An inspired and well informed debate. Now we will see if my painting skills are upto it! Thank you.
-
I'd take 2 as taken from a movie. Apart from looking at silly hats take a look at something much bigger - the horses. It's the only picture except no 7 where there are only large, wellfed horses with similar harnesses while in the other pics you can see different breeds (many small asiatic looking pony types) with different harnesses. The horse front right in no 4 seems to fall apart from malnutricion.
-
who is looking at the hats only?
no, the horse is very young, thats all (whether you mean no 3 or 4)
but you are are right, the propaganda horses are extremely well fed
and a mixture of horses after 5 years of war isn't surprising
I very well noticed that the officer leading the squadron is using a curb bit as opposed to his men, who retsraining only by a martingale
but the fact that curbed bits are used in western riding scools exclusively (maybe typical for tsarist officers?) whereas tie-downs are typical for riding ethnicities such as gauchos and cossacks seemed a little to strange argument
-
3- why is the mixture odd? and why not a helmet? I understand that helmets were not popular, but it is this mixture that gives a real feel
Helmets were rare on RCW infantry, and more so for the Soviets. I've never seen a RCW cavalryman in helmet. For a Red cavalryman it is quite odd.
7-so you see tachankas. but why post war? when were the pogonny reintroduced? and when did they stop using tachankas?
Perhaps I'm imagining the tachankas. In any case they were used into WWII, so don't change anything. Pogoni were quite late.
I'd say post war largely because the uniforms are so nice. The only troops I might suspect of being that nicely dressed in the RCW might be some elite like ChON or Kursanty, and I think they were almost exclusively infantry. The elite Soviet cavalry divisions didn't get any rest during the war to refit, going straight from one campaign to another.
The well-fed horses is another thing to consider.
-
OK
but even in war there can be some roll call etc, and then you have to neat up
let's say Trotzky came along to hold a speech....
well, anyway, here are the examples we needed for cavalry flags, with regimental and squadron version and all, cossacks included
just need the slogans now and everything is fine
but I guess the slogans are generic anyway and one has to watch for the numbers on the squadron pennants only