Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: forrester on December 15, 2024, 09:51:02 PM
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Suddenly it seems several ranges are no more are are on a hiatus.
Adler discontinued hopefully finding a new home.
SHQ bought by Grubby Tanks but not on his website yet, and anyway he says he's retiring in a year or so.
EWM website is being rebuilt.
Armourfast gone.
Still got AB, and Rapid Fire range, and PSC though their kits can periodically go out of stock.
Is everyone getting old all at once?
Is the future in 3r prints such as Butlers?
Fortunately Ive just about got what I need, but theres always room for another whim.
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I have often wondered why any one would choose 20mm when there are so many 28mm options. Also 28mm is easier to paint.
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28mm vehicles are huge, and expensive. Even 28mm figures are pretty big, which makes most ranges and distances in rules look very compressed.
20mm has a long heritage going back to Airfix kits and figures, so many people have lots of existing models in their collections.
20mm figures tend to be very naturally proportioned - whereas 28mm tend to be more chunky / caricatures.
Many people (including myself) will say 20mm tanks are big compared to 15mm/10m/6mm/etc. So as with much of wargaming it comes down to personal preference, and what type of game you want to play.
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Given the wealth of 1/72 kits and diecasts, the continued availability of plastic figures and the fact that premium 20mm ranges like AB are expanding I can't see a demise of 20mm WW2 any time soon.
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The AB 20mm range is reason enough to do WW2 in this scale :)
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I have often wondered why any one would choose 20mm when there are so many 28mm options. Also 28mm is easier to paint.
Ill dispute the easier to paint and as for quality the vast majority of 28mm sculpts Ive handled are frankly grim.....
Then again when ranges vs table size is an issue why go for a scale that increases the footprint?
And yes Im biased lol
And Adler still going until the New Year when the ranges go off to a nice new home, details will go up later this month.
Adler Miniatures
L. Locke
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I must admit that although some of my mates are converts to 28mm WW2 I just don't see the point. Vehicles are expensive, buildings have huge footprints and weapon ranges tend to be artificially curtailed due to table size. I much prefer 20mm but in fact find 15mm a more satisfying scale from a ground-scale perspective, and if starting from scratch today but probably opt for that scale.
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I think that there is still plenty around in 20mm WW2. Ranges will be passed on - though I did put a big order into Peter when he said he was selling SHQ...
I much prefer 20mm for WW2 over anything else (I have tried 28mm and 1/35 in the past) and a lot of my figures are original Airfix...
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It's purely a matter of taste. I don't know if 28mm is any easier to paint but for many of us it remains possible to paint.
As for 28mm ranges, well some of them are top class. I'd put the Paul Hicks sculpts from a number of ranges up against anything produced by Tony Barton and to be honest when it comes to post-war/moderns, a poorly supported genre, I've yet to see anything that is even as good as the old Matchbox paras.
Footprint? Yes, absolutely the footprint is larger. That said, most WW2 and modern 28mm games tend to be skirmish affairs, section plus through to company (-). Many of the 20mm games I've seen and pretty much all the ones I have played have been at a much larger scale, typically battalions or brigades. At which point the issue of footprint becomes moot. The very availability of cheapish 20mm vehicles compared to 28mm sees more of an armour heavy focus and quite often you witness the wall to wall tank effect.
Cost of figures and terrain is probably the biggest drawback.
Like most people my age, I started with Airfix and Matchbox plastic figures and tanks. My tastes changed and I went along a not atypical path of 25mm, followed by 15mm for horse and musket games as it became the thang. When I returned to WW2 it was in 6mm before starting to collect the 20mm gems that are the AB range. Some cruel bugger got me into 28mm and I've got so many of the damn things it would be pointless starting over. Never saw the point of 10mm or 3mm but hey, to each their own. It's purely a personal taste affair.
That said, if I had my druthers and if someone had produced decent 20mm moderns when I had started (nobody has to this day) I'd happily have gone down that path.
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I have often wondered why any one would choose 20mm when there are so many 28mm options. Also 28mm is easier to paint.
Because we may want well posed, animated and historically accurate models?
I'm not fond of the 28mm plastic gorilla's available. The only ones worth looking at are Perry and Hicks sculpts in 28mm. Hopefully the Victrix plastics will be good.
Far more in 20mm options than any other size and, frankly, they just look better than many 28s on the market.
Also far easier and quicker to paint too.
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I've been told '20mm is dying' as regularly as I'm told historical wargaming is dying out. Generally once every couple of years.
The sheer volume of 1/72 new kit releases certainly shows that side is booming. The likes of PSC recently released loads of 3d printed options as well as suggesting a return to new hard plastic kits in 2025 for 1/72.
The mass of releases from AB would suggest that for them, 20mm WW2 is not dying off... but generating enough revenue to pay for entire new ranges to be sculpted.
The futures bright, well is for me anyway... cos I'm very happy with where 20mm is these days.
(https://images.beastsofwar.com/2023/09/60752716-IMG_20230925_001139.jpg)
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I’m wondering whether anyone has built any of the 1:72 kits by Vespid. I received a 38T Hetzer today, having recently purchased a Comet 1a and Centurion Mk. V. Due to their demanding nature - they aren’t primarily wargaming models, it’s fair to say - and personal circumstances, I won’t be starting any of these in the near future but I’d be interested to know what others may have done with them.
For those who are unfamiliar with the range, they are highly detailed kits, with individual wheels and tracks in hard plastic that need to be attached in sections, like 1:48 or 1:35 kits, so, as I said, demanding in terms of time and patience. In terms of detail and moulding they appear to be of at least equal quality to Dragon or Revell. They all come with a fret of etched brass and - uniquely in this scale, to my knowledge - a brass gun barrel, considerably enhancing their value when one considers that these normally have to be bought from after-market suppliers. Admittedly these factors are generally of more relevance to diorama builders and self-conscious ‘scale modellers’ than wargamers but for those interested in taking things a step further they are definitely worthy of consideration.
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I’m wondering whether anyone has built any of the 1:72 kits by Vespid. I received a 38T Hetzer today, having recently purchased a Comet 1a and Centurion Mk. V. Due to their demanding nature - they aren’t primarily wargaming models, it’s fair to say - and personal circumstances, I won’t be starting any of these in the near future but I’d be interested to know what others may have done with them.
For those who are unfamiliar with the range, they are highly detailed kits, with individual wheels and tracks in hard plastic that need to be attached in sections, like 1:48 or 1:35 kits, so, as I said, demanding in terms of time and patience. In terms of detail and moulding they appear to be of at least equal quality to Dragon or Revell. They all come with a fret of etched brass and - uniquely in this scale, to my knowledge - a brass gun barrel, considerably enhancing their value when one considers that these normally have to be bought from after-market suppliers. Admittedly these factors are generally of more relevance to diorama builders and self-conscious ‘scale modellers’ than wargamers but for those interested in taking things a step further they are definitely worthy of consideration.
Crikey, Mr Cholmondely. Why would you subject yourself to that? I was thinking of picking up the Pegasus Tiger 2s in 1/72. They come in about ten pieces each 🥹
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Vespid are stunning kits though... but more for the modeller-gamer than the wargamer!
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20mm flies under the radar because show games and the wargame press prefer 28mm, so it’s easy to get the impression 20mm is ‘dying’. That might be so, except the plethora of manufacturers would indicate the opposite. Someone is buying it, and I’m one of them. The others above are the same. Just look at how many posts there are in this forum alone related to games or collections in 20mm. They probably exceed those for 15mm but no one is suggesting 15mm is dying.
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28mm when playing platoon size actions on a standard 6' x 4' table are way too big. a single squad covers around 12" , no room to maneuver. The figures have to be assembled, and I find a complete pain to paint.
There are still some very good 20mm manufacturers out their -
Simons Soldiers
Lancer Miniatures
Newline do a small but very nice range
Lancashire miniatures
Frontline wargames
The old Platoon 20 range is still available from East Front.
I don't think it is dying out.
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Let’s not forget the many excellent plastic figure sets, particularly those from Italeri and Caesar, which provide a wealth of options.
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Crikey, Mr Cholmondely. Why would you subject yourself to that? I was thinking of picking up the Pegasus Tiger 2s in 1/72. They come in about ten pieces each 🥹
This is a very fair question, which I can only answer by saying that although I am well aware that the skills and patience required to build them to the standard they deserve are beyond me, I am unable to resist having them in my collection, albeit unbuilt. In fact, I’ve just ordered a Tiger I (Early Production). I’ve never claimed to be sensible or pragmatic. I just love nice things.
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I'm a fan of 20mm but it always makes me laugh when people start talking about scale compression and which scale/size works and which doesn't.
Let's assume that our notional 20mm player is playing a platoon sized skirmish game using a 1:1 ground scale. Let's assume has deployed his squad in arrowhead formation*' a common formation , a formation used from WW2 to the present day for an advance to contact in open ground.
10-12 figures in your squad? In reality the spacing between figures should be at least five to six metres, going by the book. Arrowhead is going to be roughly half as deep as it is wide. Assuming that the convention of 20mm means a six foot man that means what? About 10mm or so to each scale meter (3mm to a foot)? so that's 6cm between each figure and about 60cm across the formation, possibly slightly less, say 50 but also around 25-30cm deep. Similar deal, obviously with no depth, for extended line, your typical assault formation and probably the one field formation wargamers do use, albeit often unwittingly.
Hang on! That's around 2' X 1' of your 6'X4' table isn't it? Just one squad too! Two squads up, one behind, spacing between the squads? Lot of model real estate they are covering.
Now I doubt many of us have access to the floors of scout halls to play our games on, so I suspect most people employ a bit of scale compression. Otherwise, folk could happily fire from one end of a six foot table to another given line of sight.
We probably use a bit of scale compression in other ways, when we don't require our typical model buildings to have two to three times the footprint that they might in real life or our model trees to be three to five times their height to match reality. Our model rivers tend to be brooks rather than model Rhines, our model artillery and mortar fire falls within Danger Close ranges most of the time and almost certainly would using a 1:1 ground scale.
So if we accept that we aren't playing at a 1:1 ground scale either with our figures or our terrain the it becomes a simple matter of what mathematical ratio we apply and that's applicable to all scales. Now remind me of why 20mm is in someway superior in terms of scale compression to 28mm? It might or might not, depending on the eye of the beholder, be more aesthetically pleasing. Purely a matter of taste.
*Not that most wargamers use any recognisable formations, they are usually lines or amorphous blobs.
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Carlos, as ever you make some excellent points about the realities of "scale compression". As one of the people who raised that one I'll surrender, but personally cite "the eye of the beholder"defence! I game WW2 and Cold War in a variety of scales a ranging from 3mm through to 20mm, and even dabbled in 28s before disposing of them. I do see why some of my mates use 28mm for platoon level "Chain of Command" but personally struggle with it for bigger games than that . I'll no wget back to painting my 15mm Japanese armour!
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Eye of the beholder is an important issue. Miniature wargaming is an aesthetic experience, otherwise we would simply play with counters. What appeals to one, what looks right is entirely subjective if it works for you or me then that's the important thing.
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I know several other gamers who game WW II in 1/72, I have both 1/72 and 1/56 WW II myself, I think the bigger figures get the press purely due to their size and supposed better details.
BTW when did 20mm and 28mm become scales? They are sizes, 1/72, 1/76 and 1/56 are scales 🙄…
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20mm has several things going for it.
Huge availability of every figure or vehicle you could ever want
Fairly cheap (compared to 28mm), and obviously easier to store
Big enough to be used for 1:1 skirmish, small enough to look Ok when playing a divisional action as in Eisenhower
In my case, having started miniature gaming in the 60s, it's what I already had, which is always the cheapest and easiest option
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I don't think 20mm WW2 is in any danger either, just cannot compete with the marketing clout of suppliers like Warlord.
The SHQ range is an uncertainty at the moment, Grubby Tanks are extremely unreliable these days. The extensive Liberation Range is in a similar position, officially still active but Rolf seems to have gone out of contact again.
You also have Elheim who are excellent & reliable and the newly revived FAA plus smaller manufacturers like XAN (who added some new pieces to their range last week), S&S Models, Wespe Models, Germania Figuren etc.
3D printing will obviously have an effect; some of the above listed already produce models this way, but printed 1/76-1/72 troops are still very fragile so I don't see it taking too much of the market away from metal and soft plastic gaming figure ranges yet.
Vehicles are more of an issue, although still marginally more expensive than equivalent plastic kits, the limited number of pieces (unless you have to remove and clean up the print supports yourself) is a bonus for a lot of gamers.
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Robh, I'm intrigued by your comment "newly revived FAA". I have lots of their figures and a few years ago bought some 1939 Poles managing to get them back to the UK via a mate's holiday in Canada. From memory the FAA's P&P rate to UK was prohibitive and almost made me wonder if they wanted to do business with anyone in Europe . I thought they had "disappeared" until I read your post. What is the most recent news?
Thanks
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I thought they had "disappeared" until I read your post. What is the most recent news?
The ranges are still with Lost Battalion but they have more recently made an effort to put up pictures of the entire selection, both WW2 and Modern.
P&P is still shocking, but as far as I can tell they don't mark it up over what USPS actually demand for packets these days. You need to email and request price including shipping.
Be warned though the myshopify site is dreadful to navigate (being a single flat data file per range) and they still retain the old, confusing ID codes so you have to know what you are looking for/at.
I have my eye on a few packs of the US Marines and Chindits for variety amongst my Indochina French, but need to sell more of my redundant stuff to raise funds first.
http://eff9b5-99.myshopify.com/collections/world-war-ii (http://eff9b5-99.myshopify.com/collections/world-war-ii)
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I'm a fan of 20mm but it always makes me laugh when people start talking about scale compression and which scale/size works and which doesn't.
(Snip)
We probably use a bit of scale compression in other ways, when we don't require our typical model buildings to have two to three times the footprint that they might in real life or our model trees to be three to five times their height to match reality. Our model rivers tend to be brooks rather than model Rhines, our model artillery and mortar fire falls within Danger Close ranges most of the time and almost certainly would using a 1:1 ground scale.
So if we accept that we aren't playing at a 1:1 ground scale either with our figures or our terrain the it becomes a simple matter of what mathematical ratio we apply and that's applicable to all scales. Now remind me of why 20mm is in someway superior in terms of scale compression to 28mm? It might or might not, depending on the eye of the beholder, be more aesthetically pleasing. Purely a matter of taste..
The compression issue for me is how scale impacts the playing area and therefore the tactical options and the way the game plays out. It’s surprising how different a table arranged to the same map appears in 28mm and 20mm. I’m not suggesting either is better but I would suggest they are likely to give a different game. The pictures give some idea of that difference. Its’s probably a greater one than you might initially imagine.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/924/G3FFxx.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/poG3FFxxj)
Similarly this map in 20mm presents the attacker with a lot more space to cover than that of the second map in 28mm.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/922/QGpRqu.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmQGpRquj)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q70/924/kMFOvv.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pokMFOvvj)
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Those pictures illustrate well the problems bigger scale models cause on fixed size tables, (they also serve to illustrate, by inference, why 1/300 would give an even better reflection of WW2 combat and 1/600 better again..............but that is another discussion ;) )
Ground scale, which a lot of newer game rules like Bolt Action don't even bother with, never applies to the physical vehicle models or weapon ranges. iirc the 88mm Anti Tank gun in Bolt Action's recommended 1/56th has a maximum range that scales out to about 100 yards.
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A big fan of 1/72- 20mm, it has been my chosen scale for more than 20 years.
My collection is around 3000 figures, vehicles, aircraft and buildings.
I like the fact you can purchase just about any vehicle, aircraft, and gun that you require. Yes some ranges have disappeared, but new ones have appeared or old ranges rereleased (hinchcliff for example with EWM), SHQ have found a new home and can still be ordered, FAA are back on the scene for example.
I play Rapid Fire for larger games and COC or Battlefront for skirmish. The advantages over 1/56th- 28mm are huge when it comes to ground scale, cost and storage.
The terrain is easily available, I predominantly use HO model railway kits for buildings, trees, trains, and smaller bits even though it is 1/87th.
3d printing has changed massively the availability of buildings and vehicles for every scale.
With the demise of “the guild” as a stalwart of 20mm Wargamers a number of us are on “The Wargamers Forum” now still posting and producing painted figures.
Cheers
Matt
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I wondered if some readers - more specifically sir_shvantselot - might be interested in seeing part of my growing collection of Vespid 1:72 kits, the latest of which, the Tiger I, arrived today. It offers an interesting comparison with the Pegasus kit of the Tiger II, which, we are told, has a total of ten parts. The Vespid Tiger I, in contrast, has nine sprues (three of them duplicated) in addition to separate pieces for the upper and lower hull sections, turret, stowage bin and commander’s cupola. This is merely the plastic, three other materials being represented: a photo-etched brass fret to make up the grilles and smoke dischargers, aluminium for the main gun in two sections, and a 3D printed muzzle brake (either resin or filament - I claim no expertise). I am aware that what my need to highlight this suggests about me may be the real talking point here.
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Here is the assembled 88 mm gun, with the 75 mm from the Hetzer alongside.
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They look like very impressive kits. That said, I'm not sure I'd want to be faffing around bending PE and linking individual track links in 1/72. Just too fiddly for me. 1/48 or 1/35, yeah I'd probably give it a go.
Rubcion do a Tiger II with complete interior and I do mean complete in 1/56. Hobbyboss have 1/48 Shermans, Panzer IVs and various T-34s with full interiors and the Hobbyboss kits can usually be picked up for a song.
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I am aware that what my need to highlight this suggests about me may be the real talking point here.
:)
It is incredible to see the way braille scale (1/76-72) models have advanced over the years. What was only available after market is now part of the base boxed kit. Even more that those after market replacements used to be the sole domain of the 1/35th scale guys.
I recall many modellers used to spend 5 or 6 times the purchase price of the base model on after market pieces for their competition entries.
Scale modellers will ensure that what gamers call "20mm" continues to go from strength to strength as the quality and scope of models expand.
Anything that can be done in 28mm can be done better in 20mm.
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Anything that can be done in 28mm can be done better in 20mm.
It could. Of course more often than not it isn't, at least when it comes to gaming models.
Compare the quickbuild kits a lot of people use or even the readily available Airfix, Italeri and Trumpeter kits that dominate the market, with the 1/56 items Rubicon produce. Even as the Rubicon kits have become more detailed and more the preserve of modellers they remain superbly engineered, which makes them a pleasure to construct. Rubicon even do a Tiger II with full interior and PE. They also sell stowage, crew and even aluminium turned barrels for some of their kits.
For those who prefer the larger 1/48, well Tamiya produce superb kits, every bit as detailed as 1/35 and just as importantly incredibly well engineered. Quite a lot of aftermarket stuff out there for 1/48 these days from gun barrels to stowage and whole conversion kits.
Fielding items on the table that require construction as often as not requires that process is as painless as possible. Folk can go to town superdetailing a model but they are only going to do so if they can be bothered putting the basic kit together in the first place. That's where ancient Airfix and Italeri kits fall down along with the increasingly rare items from Hasegawa and Fujimi and that's not taking into concern their accuracy and notoriously flexible scaling.
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I fully agree with the above analysis from both Carlos and robh. I have no immediate plans to build either kit, or my two others from Vespid - Comet 1a and Centurion Mk.V - or to field them in a wargame if / when I eventually do so. I may as well admit here and now that in recent years I have attempted - and failed, in many cases badly - to construct kits in 1:72 from Armourfast (RIP), Pegasus, and various boutique manufacturers of resin models, Rubicon in 1:56, and in 1:48 Tamiya and Hobby Boss. I even made an utter dog’s breakfast of a Corgi M48, which came pre-assembled. I don’t know which disorder I suffer from but if anyone knows of a support group I could join I’d be most grateful for a referral.
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Good to see so much support for 20mm on this thread.
Some years ago I was tempted towards 28mm and got as far as producing a platoon each for British and German infantry and US Airborne, but concluded that taking it up a level to support weapons and vehicles required deeper pockets than mine, and with excellent figures from AB etc, what was I really gaing from going up a scale? So I sold them.
You do get certain rules tending to be associated with scales, but of course none of that is compulsory.
I think some resin cast vehicle ranges are showing their age, and it may be that 3d printed options will become more dominant.
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Another thing that put me off going further with 28mm was the question of having to do more buildings in a different scale. Unnecessary duplication on several levels. 20mm satisfies my wish to do nice models with AB tank crew though if I was to embark on a new scale it’s be down rather than up, with 6mm. I’ve done that already this year with Napoleonics
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Terrain is always the killer in changing scales/sizes. At times I've wished I had done my current projects in 20mm for the ease of finding suitable structures.
That said, I've used a number of 1/72, nominally 20mm buildings with 28mm, often with subtle adjustments to bases and door heights, sometimes not at all. Some folk who game at higher levels of troop representation deliberately use smaller buildings to reduce footprint. 15mm buildings with 20mm figures etc.
Warlord think it's such a viable option they rebox and market Italeri 1/72 buildings and bunkers as 28mm. The only size increase is in the pricing. ;)
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I wondered if some readers - more specifically sir_shvantselot - might be interested in seeing part of my growing collection of Vespid 1:72 kits, the latest of which, the Tiger I, arrived today. It offers an interesting comparison with the Pegasus kit of the Tiger II, which, we are told, has a total of ten parts. The Vespid Tiger I, in contrast, has nine sprues (three of them duplicated) in addition to separate pieces for the upper and lower hull sections, turret, stowage bin and commander’s cupola. This is merely the plastic, three other materials being represented: a photo-etched brass fret to make up the grilles and smoke dischargers, aluminium for the main gun in two sections, and a 3D printed muzzle brake (either resin or filament - I claim no expertise). I am aware that what my need to highlight this suggests about me may be the real talking point here.
Wowzers. Well, we look forward to a photo of the assembled miniature one day. One day 😀
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I also look forward to that day, because my self-esteem demands it. BTW, I started counting the parts that make up the Tiger’s gun breech, by reference to the instruction booklet, but had to give up. I’m reasonably sure it more than the ten that make up the entire Pegasus kit. Of course it will be invisible in the finished model unless one resorts to inserting some fibre-optic cable into the turret and linking this up to a phone or computer. I assume someone already has.
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Unless you have cut out sections most internal details are lost. That's not the point though. To the builder it's the knowledge that they spent 237 hours detailing the inside of their tank, fitting all the bits, making their own wiring looms out of copper wire and painstakingly fitting individual shell casings in the ammo racks.
To the rest of us, gazing on at the model in a cabinet or show table, it's usually a case of 'Oh, that looks nice!'.
Last year, I made one of Rubicon's M113s for my Vietnam collection. It wouldn't be correct to say it has a full interior but it has a pretty complete interior, including driver's station and right down to the interior decals for the engine and heater. I left the cargo hatch open so, quite a bit can be seen of the troop compartment, enough to warrant putting a figure on the bench seats. I'm really tempted now to get another one and leave the ramp down just to super detail the interior of the damn thing.
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One of the biggest advantages of 20mm is you can use model railway scenery, OO guage, to make great terrain for the wargames table.
I collect 1/72 tanks, mostly to display, but occasionally do world of tanks type games with, and the advent of 3D printing has revolutionised what is available. Esoteric prototypes are something you could never get in plastic kits in 1/72, but now many are available. As are such mundane items as WW2 trucks for Italians, Poles, Japanese, French and so on.
Most are around £12 a tank, which compares favourably with 1/72 plastic kits these days.
Having said that, plastic kits are still being made, mostly by East European manufacturers, with new releases most years. And I do just enjoy making them, doing a bit every day.
I've had to sell a portion of my 1/72 tank collection this year on Ebay - judging by sales 20mm wargaming is not a declining hobby.
A word of warning though about 3D printed resin models on ebay, many billed as 20mm are in fact ~1/65 scale - some of the file designers have weird notions as to what 20mm wargaming is - and if you are particular about them being 1/72 it pays to ask before buying.
I have made a Vespid Comet tank, it's okay, somewhere in complexity between IBG and UM. Nobody beats ACE for unbuildable kits though :)
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Nobody beats ACE for unbuildable kits though :)
Ain't that the truth! Great pity really, they produce some interesting subject matter but fuck me are they poorly engineered.
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I was considering getting rid of my fairly limited 20mm collection and moving to 15mm , then a friend gave me 30 odd 20mm buildings painted to a very high standard.
It would have cost me a huge amount just to replace the buildings he gave me, so I stuck with 20mm figures.
As well as the limitations of the size of the table 29mm buildings take up 30% more space than 20mm so there is the storage issue
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I’m continuing to add to my Vespid collection, having just ordered one of their kits of the Panther G, described on the box as “2 in 1”, which I assume to mean it can be built as one of two variants, rather than containing sufficient parts to make two models - as is / was the case with some Italeri and Pegasus kits - as this just seems like too good a deal to be credible.
Whilst browsing on eBay I also came across a manufacturer of 1:72 armour called, oddly enough, Armory, though they also produce aircraft. The majority of the tank kits I saw were paper panzers, though I also noticed a Panzer II Luchs, and there may be others. What really caught my eye, however, was the price. I’m wondering whether anyone is familiar with these models and would care to share any thoughts on them. Here is an example:
https://www.tigerhobbies.co.uk/product/armory-models-72202-1-72-vk-72-01k-german-wwii-prototype-heavy-tank/
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Not heard of them specifically but according to Scalemates they are a brand of UA in Ukraine, whose kits I have bought. Opening up the pdf instructions of one of their kits on Scalemates shows it's pretty much the same design philosophy/ designers.
https://www.scalemates.com/brands/armory--557
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/armory-ar72443-zsu-23-4v1-shilka--1354249
I few years ago I purchased a UA 37mm Russian AA gun. It remains partlally built but mostly in its box. Horrendously high parts count for what it is, huge amounts of tiny, fiddly bits and badly engineered. It was a genuine struggle and one at the time I considered not worth the candle. That btw was in 1/48 scale so I shudder to think what one of their 1/72 kits would be like. Modelling can be a challenge but I prefer it to be an enjoyable one.
To be fair UA and by the looks of it their offshoot produce interesting subject matter. They do have less flash and are slightly better designed than ACE kits. That said, I'm not in a hurry to buy another one of their offerings.
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Well if your interested in the Vespid Panther this might be of use to you:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=1724417#p1724417
The Amory Luchs is a nice kit , bit fiddly but thats more to do with the small size of the actual vehicle.
For an easier and brilliant build go for the Revell ( ax Maco) Luchs brilliant little kit.
L
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One of the biggest advantages of 20mm is you can use model railway scenery, OO guage, to make great terrain for the wargames table.
Trouble is, that does make everything look British.
Folk can go to town superdetailing a model but they are only going to do so if they can be bothered putting the basic kit together in the first place. That's where ancient Airfix and Italeri kits fall down
I've not decided against Airfix for that reason; they were cheap and no-one cared if they died a horrible death being used for gaming. The only reason not to use them now is really that they aren't cheap enough any more, while nothing has changed about the kit itself except for things like a Vintage Classics sign on the box.
Much research has been done for us: https://fox3000.com/index2.htm
I may get more Plastic Soldier Co. items, though I was unsatisfied with how the upper hulls went together on my halftracks. They are simply cheaper than most other options available here at the moment.
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Trouble is, that does make everything look British.
Not so. They can be pricey but there is a wealth of suitable new and second hand European buildings in 1/87 from folk like Faller, Heki, Noch etc. Would have made current projects a lot easier had I gone 20mm.
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Well if your interested in the Vespid Panther this might be of use to you:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=1724417#p1724417
The Amory Luchs is a nice kit , bit fiddly but thats more to do with the small size of the actual vehicle.
For an easier and brilliant build go for the Revell ( ax Maco) Luchs brilliant little kit.
L
Hmm. It looks well above my skill and competence levels but at least the box is nice. Thanks for the tip on the Luchs. I haven’t seen any recent Revell kits so was unsure whether they were keeping up the standards they set when they entered the 1:72 arena.
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Am of the opinion the golden age of 20mm is now only a glimpse in the rearview mirror. Contrary to a previous poster's claim, 28mm has well and truly surpassed 20mm in terms of choices. Eureka has Chinese partisans while Yugoslav regulars are available from Regiment Games. Great Escape Games do Bulgarian infantry and Greek mountain troops. Even Warlord Games has branched out to offer Hungarian paratroopers and gendarmes, as well as Italian marines. None of these subjects are covered in 20mm. There is also the disappearance of brands like Shellhole Scenics and Battlefield Miniatures to bear in mind, to say nothing of the impending closure of IT Miniatures, SHQ Miniatures and Kelly's Heroes.
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Interesting point re availability of ranges for the ‘minor powers’ - which I applaud. It’s also interesting that, at least to the best of my knowledge, nobody produces US Army troops for the Pacific theatre in either scale. The only such figure I’ve seen, which scarcely constitutes a range, is one that came with a painting guide, and wore the M1917 helmet, a shameless copy of the British Brodie. Rather a scant basis for gaming the defence of the Philippines, for those so inclined, as I might be.
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Hang Tuah, this was exactly my perception of the market situation and which prompted my original post. Whatever our views might be on which scale is best 28mm is where the new products are coming from. The last Wargames Illustrated included photos of a 28mm Irish Guards breakout game, which looked excellent and which some years ago would have been regarded as a crazy project. Things have moved on. My original WW2 units were from the point the metals overtook plastics as to quality so it was FAA and Drew’s Militia and SHQ. Some of those I still have, and they were followed by AB and Adler. There was always something new coming up.Since then FOW nudged people to 15mm and Bolt Action to 28mm however. Airfix who started many of us down this slippery slope don’t seem very interested in doing more 1/72 tanks. Armourfast have gone which had been a handy source of cheap Wargames vehicles which responded well to some tarting up.Within all this we also had 1/76 losing out to 1/72 when the point had passed where it was felt necessary to make things compatible with Airfix. For me it was PSC that convinced me to make that particular jump.
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Getting back to the Luchs or Lynx question you may find this series of articles useful.
https://butterfingeredmodelbuilder.wordpress.com/2017/05/04/armory-172-luchs/
Best wishes,
Martin
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Interesting point re availability of ranges for the ‘minor powers’ - which I applaud. It’s also interesting that, at least to the best of my knowledge, nobody produces US Army troops for the Pacific theatre in either scale. The only such figure I’ve seen, which scarcely constitutes a range, is one that came with a painting guide, and wore the M1917 helmet, a shameless copy of the British Brodie. Rather a scant basis for gaming the defence of the Philippines, got those so inclined.
Considering the US Army did a lot more than just defend the Philippines, it's a considerable ommission. That said, there are figures that can be made to work. In 28mm for 1941, there are the Bob Murch marines, which come in tin helmeted versions. These can be used as early war US Army. Speaking of the Philippines circa 1941, there's an exquisite set of resin Philippine Scout Cavalry in tin hats out there. A number of folk printing them, so it seems.
For later war US Army, New Guinea, SW Pacific and onwards, then the Perry WW2 metal range steps in. They produce two 6 figure packs, quite sufficient to make up a full strength US Army squad with all the required kit, in shirtsleeves and bare helmets. Pretty much ideal for the US Army in the Pacific.
Eureka do a fullish range of US Army and Philippine Scouts in 15mm that complement their Japanese.
As to 28mm having overtaken 20mm in terms of exotica, I'm inclined to agree. I have pre-war Czechs and Chinese and most belligerants in WW2 are available in some way, shape or foim in 28mm. About the only and to my my mind quite bizarre ommission to date has been Red Army troops for the Winter War and one of LAF's members is currently remedying that gap.
If you look at the world of 3D resin prints, there's very little in terms of WW2 vehicles that aren't covered. I even recently discovered a local printing firm making a full range of Czech armour and softskins. 3D resin prints have some many advantages over plastic lits to start with but the sheer variety of subject material means 1/72 is no longer king. Of course most of these things can be printed at 1/72 or 15mm if people so desire.
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Far more in 20mm options than any other size and, frankly, they just look better than many 28s on the market.
The first part is frankly untrue this day when so many 20mm options have disappeared. To say nothing of the fact that 28mm makers are now covering subjects unexplored in 20mm. It is true that AB is still churning out new releases, but like Adler they are only doing stuff that are already out there, like US airborne and late war Russians. That is hardly enrichening the variety of choices you claimed. Whereas the Perrys have been known to go off the beaten path, producing British Yeomanry cavalry and US infantry in shirtsleeves.
Hang Tuah, this was exactly my perception of the market situation and which prompted my original post. Whatever our views might be on which scale is best 28mm is where the new products are coming from.
The future for 20mm looks bleak. Aside from AB, Elhiem and Simons Soldiers I cannot envision any new releases. Certainly not any new nationalities. Elhiem is coming out with a Dutch East Indies but that was a private commission. Whereas I think we will one day see Persians and Iraqis in 28mm. But I am surprised you have not mentioned S-Models and First to Fight. Both produce kits that are far superior to PSC.
Considering the US Army did a lot more than just defend the Philippines, it's a considerable ommission. That said, there are figures that can be made to work. In 28mm for 1941, there are the Bob Murch marines, which come in tin helmeted versions. These can be used as early war US Army. Speaking of the Philippines circa 1941, there's an exquisite set of resin Philippine Scout Cavalry in tin hats out there. A number of folk printing them, so it seems.
Brigade Games actually has a dedicated range of early war US infantry and Filipinos.
Interesting point re availability of ranges for the ‘minor powers’ - which I applaud. It’s also interesting that, at least to the best of my knowledge, nobody produces US Army troops for the Pacific theatre in either scale. The only such figure I’ve seen, which scarcely constitutes a range, is one that came with a painting guide, and wore the M1917 helmet, a shameless copy of the British Brodie. Rather a scant basis for gaming the defence of the Philippines, got those so inclined.
Actually early war US troops are available in 20mm from EWM, Raventhorpe and Platoon20. The latter two brands were featured in a Wake Island display game put together by the writers of Rapid Fire.
About the only and to my my mind quite bizarre ommission to date has been Red Army troops for the Winter War and one of LAF's members is currently remedying that gap.
Do you not like the range by Parkfield Miniatures?
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Not so. They can be pricey but there is a wealth of suitable new and second hand European buildings in 1/87 from folk like Faller, Heki, Noch etc. Would have made current projects a lot easier had I gone 20mm.
So, actually. 1/87 might suit a more mathematically perfect 20mm, but is too small for a people who think a compact car that already blocks two lanes "looks a little small". It is most definitely not "OO scale".
The first part is frankly untrue this day when so many 20mm options have disappeared.
So have so many 28mm options. For one thing, I can't find a 2pdr tank attack carrier in either scale.
Just play what you want and stop making up excuses not to enjoy your hobby. Scales don't die just because some oddball that only you have heard of isn't in production.
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"Brigade Games actually has a dedicated range of early war US infantry and Filipinos."
Quite right, I had forgotten about those. Sculpted by the late Mike Broadbent. Not their best work or even his TBH. There's also a range of Filipino guerillas by the same sculptor through Company B.
"Do you not like the range by Parkfield Miniatures?"
Er no. Admittedly they are great deal better than the grotesque offerings by the old Baker Company but they really aren't that flash.
It's weird, any number of people do Winter War Finns, including Brigade games.
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So, actually. 1/87 might suit a more mathematically perfect 20mm, but is too small for a people who think a compact car that already blocks two lanes "looks a little small". It is most definitely not "OO scale".
So have so many 28mm options. For one thing, I can't find a 2pdr tank attack carrier in either scale.
Just play what you want and stop making up excuses not to enjoy your hobby. Scales don't die just because some oddball that only you have heard of isn't in production.
If people think that Dapol, Hornby and PECO are accurately scaled for 1/72 then they are kidding themselves. It's a case of buggers can't be choosers and if you can live with the fact that your building avatar's look a little small, the choices are there. Of course there's also a wealth of 20mm scaled 3D prints out there now, alas mostly Normandy focussed.
As it happens, there are very few model buildings that are accurately scaled, ie they have the actual scale footprint of their real life counterparts. Wargamers would reject tham as being too big and too expensive if they were.
https://www.wargaming3d.com/product/australian-2-pounder-atg-universal-carrier/
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No, they are scaled for 1/76. The difference is of little consequence. It is far less than the difference between 1/72 and 1/87.
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Just play what you want and stop making up excuses not to enjoy your hobby. Scales don't die just because some oddball that only you have heard of isn't in production.
No, they die when the number of manufacturers dwindles to less than half the number of twenty years ago, all offering more or less the same products. Your example is also a very specious one as there is a significant difference between not being able to find a specific vehicle variant and not being able to play an entire army. Equally fallacious is your characterization of my comments as a complaint, or your interpretation that I am refusing to enjoy the hobby.
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As a model maker as well as a wargamer I’m finding all this a little weird. Gaming figures are always assumed to be ostensibly about six foot in height.
1/76 is 4mm to the foot, so a six foot “standard” figure would be around 24mm, not 20mm as this discussion seems to imply. I don’t think there are many 24mm ranges about…..
1/72 scale means a six foot man would be about one inch high….ie about 25mm…..….the scale that was usurped by 28mm figures….
For 20mm, the title of the thread, vehicles would need to be scaled at around three and a half millimetres to the foot, which is approximately 1/87 scale. Vehicles in that scale are very rare.
The real problem is that people have got used to the “look” of “Airfix” tanks against 20mm figures and do not really see the scale discrepancies. Early Airfix kits were 1/76, no matter what the say on the box, as were Matchbox (now marketed by Revell)…..on the other hand there are a plethora of firms making 1/72 kits, mostly Eastern European or Asian, that followed the Tamiya flag once they started to appear.
One great exception, and possibly the best 20mm vehicle range around if you want to build 1/72 from kits, is S models. Two kits in a box, no excessive parts count, and a fit and finish as good as anything out there. They look good with 20mm figures as well.
Seems to me that if you used 1/72 kits with 28mm figures you would get the same appearance on the table as 20mm figures with 1/76 models though.
Scenery is relatively easy, just use HO model railway stuff against 20mm figures. It should be close enough, and is the scale of the very old Airfix kits. OO model railway stuff is 1/76, or 4mm to the foot, so is actually a bit big for 20mm.
As to figure availability, this expansion and contraction has always happened in the hobby. Sooner or later someone will fill the void with a 20mm range to try and create a market. It’s why we have so many different scales across the hobby…..
Personally I’d go with what makes you happy and not over think it…..if there isn’t much around at the moment things will change….they always do…..
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No, they die when the number of manufacturers dwindles to less than half the number of twenty years ago, all offering more or less the same products. Your example is also a very specious one as there is a significant difference between not being able to find a specific vehicle variant and not being able to play an entire army. Equally fallacious is your characterization of my comments as a complaint, or your interpretation that I am refusing to enjoy the hobby.
No, they die when there is nothing left and no-one left to consume them.
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This still going?
People always seem to want 20mm to die off, I guess it's so they don't show up how naff the others are compared to them.... ;)
20mm has been around forever, and will carry on, lurking in the shadows as it always has done, despite 15mm and 28mm WW2 trying to turf it out... and will occasionally pop out and expose itself like some mackintosh clad flasher from the 70s, before running back into the shadow where we can be left in peace with our superior models and kits with bazillions of parts, away from the common sizes! :P
As this is the Internet, my disclaimer that the above isn't me being serious...
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'but like Adler they are only doing stuff that are already out there, like US airborne and late war Russians. '
Hmm ..........Adler made a very specific effort to produce ranges THAT were not already out there......Waffen SS in HBT, Late war Brits in the Windproof, US Airbourne in the late uniform, British Glider troops let alone a whole bunch of specific vehicle crew figures.
Nice to know the effort and thought we put in is noted.....................
L
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You don't expect people to actually pay attention do you Leon?
Hyperbole is much more fun. To be fair though, if someone thinks 20mm is dying and nothing is being released, they may not see the nuances in the Adler ranges actually filling in gaps. After all... all we see in 28mm is yet more Germans in camo smocks. ;)
Plus so many 20mm companies still currently releasing new stuff - AB, Simons Soldiers, Elhiem, Playa Major to name but a few along with more still going.
20mm never has the visibility it once had, in the days when WI used to feature Rapid Fire games and running ads from Britannia etc. Now the 'main stream' WW2 games use 28mm and 15mm so magazines tend to feature those, especially when they have 'special' relationships with certain manufacturers.
Of course, online it's different, the large number of 1/72 groups on Facebook shows a wide spread of interest, makers and both modellers and gamers alike. It's often a case of seeing what you want to see. Non-20mm gamers won't see (or be shown) 20mm stuff by their social media at times, while my algorithms throw it up constantly. So judging popularity based of your own single perception is likely highly flawed. If it's mine, 15mm and 28mm WW2 just don't exist... so perception plays a part.
What would be nice if people just enjoyed all scales and sizes rather than the tribal sniping that goes on. It's all very bizarre, trying to 'one up' each other but I guess that's just human nature to feel 'yours' is the best. Despite my love of 20mm WW2, there is some great stuff in 15mm, 28mm and other sizes.
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You don't expect people to actually pay attention do you Leon?
Hyperbole is much more fun. To be fair though, if someone thinks 20mm is dying and nothing is being released, they may not see the nuances in the Adler ranges actually filling in gaps. After all... all we see in 28mm is yet more Germans in camo smocks. ;)
Not forgetting all the ubiquitous STG44s🙂
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Well the new Victrix ones will have alot of rifles... I hope!
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This still going?
People always seem to want 20mm to die off, I guess it's so they don't show up how naff the others are compared to them.... ;)
lol
This discussion will never end.
Apparently 20mm WW2 gaming was killed off years ago when gamers were pushed towards the nirvana of 15mm Flames of War.
Except it wasn't.
Now 28mm Bolt Action is being prescribed as the holy grail of all WW2 wargaming which has finally eliminated 20mm and the now irrelevent 15mm.
Except it hasn't.
It is all moot anyway as none of the figure manufacturers are going to be around in 10 years time anyway (maybe less). You will buy customised stls of whatever figure or vehicle you want and make it or have it made for you in the specific size you choose.
No doubt you will then play games with them using rules and scenarios purpose written by your home AI, which for a lot of people will probably be their opponent as well.
Then a few years later there won't be a need for any physical objects at all everything for the hobby will be VR generated.
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A terrifying vision of the future, robh! lol
I remember when Flames of War was supposed to take over the world, and no, it didn’t, as you say. The tanks were ok, but the infantry were awful, and still mostly are.
Bolt Action? Again, the tanks are ok, but the Warlord infantry sculpts are bad. Perry and so many others are just superior.
Speaking of Perry, there are a small number of their sculpts available in 20mm from Wargames Foundry - and they are fantastic!
To me, AB still make the best WW2 infantry models, hands down. Their sculpts are stunning.
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AB - Everything else is just a toy. :D
(https://images.beastsofwar.com/2024/04/92521760-IMG_20240405_011112.jpg)
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Stunning as always! o_o
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It appears that my information on WWII US uniforms in the early part of Pacific war is either obsolete or downright incorrect. Thank you, Carlos and Hang Tuah for the correction. (Apologies if I missed anyone else who pointed it his out).
I’m still rather unclear about the situation re the later campaigns in the Pacific theatre, however, and particularly surprised to hear that the Perry metal range is accurate for this. Admittedly I have not looked at this in detail but had assumed it was also geared towards the European theatre. I’m aware that a new uniforms began to be issued following the North Africa campaign and that both the old and new versions were in use for the remainder of the war but had always understood that in the Pacific it was different again, though to what extent and in which particulars, I couldn’t say.
Edit: Having reread Carlos’s post I see that the Perry metal US infantry are in shirtsleeves. This is no doubt the factor that renders them suitable for the Pacific, irrespective of the regulation uniform. Is there an equivalent to these in 20 mm?
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Early WW2 Americans are available in 20mm from plastic manufacturer Strelets.
Also many other obscurer WW2 ranges are constantly being released, eg Soviet Partisans, NZ troops, Finns, Hungarians, Italians in Russia, and so on.
Now, they may not be to everyones' tastes, but focussing purely on metal releases and saying the 20mm hobby is in decline isn't strictly correct.
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Early WW2 Americans are available in 20mm from plastic manufacturer Strelets.
Now, that’s a uniform I wasn’t aware of. Looks a bit warm for the Pacific, too but that’s an interesting use for the machete.
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The Perry metal miniatures are wearing shirts with two patch pockets and a collar that matches the HBT cotton uniform. Now whether they are intended to depict troops in HBT, as worn early in the Torch landings and into Tunisia, or just the standard temperate kit minus Parsons jacket, I do not know. What I do know is that in this scale they are a pretty damn good proxy for troops in the early HBT uniforms. Just paint a lightish sage green and you are good.
Now, one thing I would love would be Brazilian troops for Italy. Largely mid to late war US uniforms (with the occasional domestic item) but carrying M1903 Springfields for the most part but that would be just me being pedantic and lazy. That said, I would like to make a miniature homage to my late father in-law whos served with the FEB in Italy.
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That seems perfectly reasonable as regards the riflemen. However the figures with support weapons in the other metal packs all appear to be wearing tunics, presumably the same type - M1941, aka Parsons - as in the plastic set, which makes them inappropriate for the Pacific theatre as far as I can see.
A range of Brazilians would be good to see, though I can’t avoid picturing them in yellow shirts with their names on the back, mostly ending -inho.
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That seems perfectly reasonable as regards the riflemen. However the figures with support weapons in the other metal packs all appear to be wearing tunics, presumably the same type M1941, aka Parsons - as in the plastic set, which makes them inappropriate for the Pacific theatre as far as I can see.
A range of Brazilians would be good to see, though I can’t avoid picturing them in yellow shirts with their names on the back, mostly ending -inho.
Yeah, you're on your own if you want support weapons, although you could probably do some snipping and filing to the existing range or maybe repurpose support weapons from other folk's USMC ranges. That said if you are doing say Buna/Gona or the fighting on Bougainville, the nature of the terrain means you are unlikely to see much more than a .30 cal in action, on board.
If you want an officer, again you'll need to find your own but there are sufficient riflemen/ BAR/ SMG types to fill out a platoon.
Personally speaking, I paint all my Brazilians in red and black*. ;)
I don't need to add a dimunitive to their names, as I can just get up from my painting table, walk the length of the house and tell my son to stop shouting at his on-line shooter game. 'Jorginho Pare! STFU!'
* I actually do have a force of Tupi that are mostly painted in red and black.
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I’ve yet to choose a theatre that I’d like to game and failed to find the 20mm miniatures, models and terrain I need. Seriously. While some are mainstream subjects like Normandy or Eastern Front, others are more peripheral like China or the Dutch East Indies. I’ve yet to hit a dead end and turn to another scale. Only recently I was looking at Elhiem’s tropical French range with thoughts of gaming the battle for Madagascar.
Nothing new? Of course there is, AB branching into theatres like the Far East or Early War Miniatures in any number of theatres to name but a couple of manufacturers.
I have resorted to 3D printing for only a single vehicle so far (an armoured car for the Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Force), everything else I have is either a plastic or metal kit, or a resin cast.
20mm is only as dead as you want it to be…….
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TacticalPainter said "20mm is only as dead as you want it to be……."
So true.
AB, EWM, Elheim, Plana Mayor, Adler (pending under license), Simon's (sadly not for much longer is things are true) and so on...