20mm WW2...endangered species?

[Cholmondely Percival IV]

Here is the assembled 88 mm gun, with the 75 mm from the Hetzer alongside.

[carlos marighela]

They look like very impressive kits. That said, I'm not sure I'd want to be faffing around bending PE and linking individual track links in 1/72. Just too fiddly for me. 1/48 or 1/35, yeah I'd probably give it a go.

Rubcion do a Tiger II with complete interior and I do mean complete in 1/56. Hobbyboss have 1/48 Shermans, Panzer IVs and various T-34s with full interiors and the Hobbyboss kits can usually be picked up for a song.

[robh]

I am aware that what my need to highlight this suggests about me may be the real talking point here.

 
It is incredible to see the way braille scale (1/76-72) models have advanced over the years. What was only available after market is now part of the base boxed kit. Even more that those after market replacements used to be the sole domain of the 1/35th scale guys.

I recall many modellers used to spend 5 or 6 times the purchase price of the base model on after market pieces for their competition entries.
Scale modellers will ensure that what gamers call "20mm" continues to go from strength to strength as the quality and scope of models expand.
Anything that can be done in 28mm can be done better in 20mm.

[carlos marighela]

Anything that can be done in 28mm can be done better in 20mm.

It could. Of course more often than not it isn't, at least when it comes to gaming models.

Compare the quickbuild kits a lot of people use or even the readily available Airfix, Italeri and Trumpeter kits that dominate the market, with the 1/56 items Rubicon produce. Even as the Rubicon kits have become more detailed and more the preserve of modellers they remain superbly engineered, which makes them a pleasure to construct. Rubicon even do a Tiger II with full interior and PE. They also sell stowage, crew and even aluminium turned barrels for some of their kits.

For those who prefer the larger 1/48, well Tamiya produce superb kits, every bit as detailed as 1/35 and just as importantly incredibly well engineered. Quite a lot of aftermarket stuff out there for 1/48 these days from gun barrels to stowage and whole conversion kits.

Fielding items on the table that require construction as often as not requires that process is as painless as possible. Folk can go to town superdetailing a model but they are only going to do so if they can be bothered putting the basic kit together in the first place. That's where ancient Airfix and Italeri kits fall down along with the increasingly rare items from Hasegawa and Fujimi and that's not taking into concern their accuracy and notoriously flexible scaling.

[Cholmondely Percival IV]

I fully agree with the above analysis from both Carlos and robh. I have no immediate plans to build either kit, or my two others from Vespid - Comet 1a and Centurion Mk.V - or to field them in a wargame if / when I eventually do so. I may as well admit here and now that in recent years I have attempted - and failed, in many cases badly - to construct kits in 1:72 from Armourfast (RIP), Pegasus, and various boutique manufacturers of resin models, Rubicon in 1:56, and in 1:48 Tamiya and Hobby Boss. I even made an utter dog’s breakfast of a Corgi M48, which came pre-assembled. I don’t know which disorder I suffer from but if anyone knows of a support group I could join I’d be most grateful for a referral.

[forrester]

Good to see so much support for 20mm on this thread.
Some years ago I was tempted towards 28mm and got as far as producing a platoon each for British and German infantry and US Airborne, but concluded that taking it up a level to support weapons and vehicles required deeper pockets than mine, and with excellent  figures from AB etc, what was I really gaing from going up a scale? So I sold them.

You do get certain rules tending to be associated with scales, but of course none of that is compulsory.

I think some resin cast vehicle ranges are showing their age, and it may be that 3d printed options will become more dominant.

[forrester]

Another thing that put me off going further with 28mm was the question of having to do more buildings in a different scale. Unnecessary duplication on several levels. 20mm satisfies my wish to do nice models with AB tank crew though if I was to embark on a new scale it’s be down rather than up, with 6mm. I’ve done that already this year with Napoleonics

[carlos marighela]

Terrain is always the killer in changing scales/sizes. At times I've wished I had done my current projects in 20mm for the ease of finding suitable structures.

That said, I've used a number of 1/72, nominally 20mm buildings with 28mm, often with subtle adjustments to bases and door heights, sometimes not at all. Some folk who game at higher levels of troop representation deliberately use smaller buildings to reduce footprint. 15mm  buildings with 20mm figures etc.

Warlord think it's such a viable option they rebox and market Italeri 1/72 buildings and bunkers as 28mm. The only size increase is in the pricing. 

[sir_shvantselot]

I wondered if some readers - more specifically sir_shvantselot - might be interested in seeing part of my growing collection of Vespid 1:72 kits, the latest of which, the Tiger I, arrived today. It offers an interesting comparison with the Pegasus kit of the Tiger II, which, we are told, has a total of ten parts. The Vespid Tiger I, in contrast, has nine sprues (three of them duplicated) in addition to separate pieces for the upper and lower hull sections, turret, stowage bin and commander’s cupola. This is merely the plastic, three other materials being represented: a photo-etched brass fret to make up the grilles and smoke dischargers, aluminium for the main gun in two sections, and a 3D printed muzzle brake (either resin or filament - I claim no expertise). I am aware that what my need to highlight this suggests about me may be the real talking point here.

Wowzers. Well, we look forward to a photo of the assembled miniature one day. One day 😀

[Cholmondely Percival IV]

I also look forward to that day, because my self-esteem demands it. BTW, I started counting the parts that make up the Tiger’s gun breech, by reference to the instruction booklet, but had to give up. I’m reasonably sure it more than the ten that make up the entire Pegasus kit. Of course it will be invisible in the finished model unless one resorts to inserting some fibre-optic cable into the turret and linking this up to a phone or computer. I assume someone already has.

[carlos marighela]

Unless you have cut out sections most internal details are lost. That's not the point though. To the builder it's the knowledge that they spent 237 hours detailing the inside of their tank, fitting all the bits, making their own wiring looms out of copper wire and painstakingly fitting individual shell casings in the ammo racks.

To the rest of us, gazing on at the model in a cabinet or show table, it's usually a case of 'Oh, that looks nice!'.

Last year, I made one of Rubicon's M113s for my Vietnam collection. It wouldn't be correct to say it has a full interior but it has a pretty complete interior, including driver's station and right down to the interior decals for the engine and heater. I left the cargo hatch open so, quite a bit can be seen of the troop compartment, enough to warrant putting a figure on the bench seats. I'm really tempted now to get another one and leave the ramp down just to super detail the interior of the damn thing.

[sultanbev]

One of the biggest advantages of 20mm is you can use model railway scenery, OO guage, to make great terrain for the wargames table.
I collect 1/72 tanks, mostly to display, but occasionally do world of tanks type games with, and the advent of 3D printing has revolutionised what is available. Esoteric prototypes are something you could never get in plastic kits in 1/72, but now many are available. As are such mundane items as WW2 trucks for Italians, Poles, Japanese, French and so on.
Most are around £12 a tank, which compares favourably with 1/72 plastic kits these days.
Having said that, plastic kits are still being made, mostly by East European manufacturers, with new releases most years. And I do just enjoy making them, doing a bit every day.
I've had to sell a portion of my 1/72 tank collection this year on Ebay - judging by sales 20mm wargaming is not a declining hobby.

A word of warning though about 3D printed resin models on ebay, many billed as 20mm are in fact ~1/65 scale - some of the file designers have weird notions as to what 20mm wargaming is - and if you are particular about them being 1/72 it pays to ask before buying.

I have made a Vespid Comet tank, it's okay, somewhere in complexity between IBG and UM. Nobody beats ACE for unbuildable kits though

[carlos marighela]

Nobody beats ACE for unbuildable kits though

Ain't that the truth! Great pity really, they produce some interesting subject matter but fuck me are they poorly engineered.

[Just a few orcs]

I was considering getting rid of my fairly limited 20mm collection and moving to 15mm , then a friend gave me 30 odd  20mm buildings painted to a very high standard.
It would have cost me a huge amount just to replace the buildings he gave me, so I stuck with 20mm figures.

As  well as the limitations of the size of the table 29mm buildings take up 30% more space than 20mm so there is the storage issue

[Cholmondely Percival IV]

I’m continuing to add to my Vespid collection, having just ordered one of their kits of the Panther G, described on the box as “2 in 1”, which I assume to mean it can be built as one of two variants, rather than containing sufficient parts to make two models - as is / was the case with some Italeri and Pegasus kits - as this just seems like too good a deal to be credible.

Whilst browsing on eBay I also came across a manufacturer of 1:72 armour called, oddly enough, Armory, though they also produce aircraft. The majority of the tank kits I saw were paper panzers, though I also noticed a Panzer II Luchs, and there may be others. What really caught my eye, however, was the price. I’m wondering whether anyone is familiar with these models and would care to share any thoughts on them. Here is an example:

https://www.tigerhobbies.co.uk/product/armory-models-72202-1-72-vk-72-01k-german-wwii-prototype-heavy-tank/