20mm WW2...endangered species?

[carlos marighela]

Not heard of them specifically but according to Scalemates they are a brand of UA in Ukraine, whose kits I have bought. Opening up the pdf instructions of one of their kits on Scalemates shows it's pretty much the same design philosophy/ designers.

https://www.scalemates.com/brands/armory--557

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/armory-ar72443-zsu-23-4v1-shilka--1354249

I few years ago I purchased a UA 37mm Russian AA gun. It remains partlally built but mostly in its box. Horrendously high parts count for what it is, huge amounts of tiny, fiddly bits and badly engineered. It was a genuine struggle and one at the time I considered not worth the candle. That btw was in 1/48 scale so I shudder to think what one of their 1/72 kits would be like. Modelling can be a challenge but I prefer it to be an enjoyable one.

To be fair UA and by the looks of it their offshoot produce interesting subject matter. They do have less flash and are slightly better designed than ACE kits. That said, I'm not in a hurry to buy another one of their offerings.

[Adler]

Well if your interested in the Vespid Panther this might be of use to you:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=1724417#p1724417

The Amory Luchs is a nice kit , bit fiddly but thats more to do with the small size of the actual vehicle.
For an easier and brilliant build go for the Revell ( ax Maco) Luchs brilliant little kit.
L

[shadowbeast]

One of the biggest advantages of 20mm is you can use model railway scenery, OO guage, to make great terrain for the wargames table.

Trouble is, that does make everything look British.

 Folk can go to town superdetailing a model but they are only going to do so if they can be bothered putting the basic kit together in the first place. That's where ancient Airfix and Italeri kits fall down

I've not decided against Airfix for that reason; they were cheap and no-one cared if they died a horrible death being used for gaming. The only reason not to use them now is really that they aren't cheap enough any more, while nothing has changed about the kit itself except for things like a Vintage Classics sign on the box.

Much research has been done for us: https://fox3000.com/index2.htm

I may get more Plastic Soldier Co. items, though I was unsatisfied with how the upper hulls went together on my halftracks. They are simply cheaper than most other options available here at the moment.

[carlos marighela]

Trouble is, that does make everything look British.

Not so. They can be pricey but there is a wealth of suitable new and second hand European buildings in 1/87 from folk like Faller, Heki, Noch etc. Would have made current projects a lot easier had I gone 20mm.

[Cholmondely Percival IV]

Well if your interested in the Vespid Panther this might be of use to you:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=1724417#p1724417

The Amory Luchs is a nice kit , bit fiddly but thats more to do with the small size of the actual vehicle.
For an easier and brilliant build go for the Revell ( ax Maco) Luchs brilliant little kit.
L

Hmm. It looks well above my skill and competence levels but at least the box is nice. Thanks for the tip on the Luchs. I haven’t seen any recent Revell kits so was unsure whether they were keeping up the standards they set when they entered the 1:72 arena.

[Hang Tuah]

Am of the opinion the golden age of 20mm is now only a glimpse in the rearview mirror. Contrary to a previous poster's claim, 28mm has well and truly surpassed 20mm in terms of choices. Eureka has Chinese partisans while Yugoslav regulars are available from Regiment Games. Great Escape Games do Bulgarian infantry and Greek mountain troops. Even Warlord Games has branched out to offer Hungarian paratroopers and gendarmes, as well as Italian marines. None of these subjects are covered in 20mm. There is also the disappearance of brands like Shellhole Scenics and Battlefield Miniatures to bear in mind, to say nothing of the impending closure of IT Miniatures, SHQ Miniatures and Kelly's Heroes.

[Cholmondely Percival IV]

Interesting point re availability of ranges for the ‘minor powers’ - which I applaud. It’s also interesting that, at least to the best of my knowledge, nobody produces US Army troops for the Pacific theatre in either scale. The only such figure I’ve seen, which scarcely constitutes a range, is one that came with a painting guide, and wore the M1917 helmet, a shameless copy of the British Brodie. Rather a scant basis for gaming the defence of the Philippines, for those so inclined, as I might be.

[forrester]

Hang Tuah, this was exactly my perception of the market situation and which prompted my original post.  Whatever our views might be on which scale is best 28mm is where the new products are coming from. The last Wargames Illustrated included photos of a 28mm Irish Guards breakout game, which looked excellent and which some years ago would have been regarded as a crazy project. Things have moved on.   My original WW2 units were from the point the metals overtook plastics as to quality so it was FAA and Drew’s Militia and SHQ. Some of those I still have, and they were followed by AB and Adler.  There was always something new coming up.Since then FOW nudged people to 15mm and Bolt Action to 28mm however. Airfix who started many of us down this slippery slope don’t seem very interested in doing more 1/72 tanks. Armourfast have gone which had been a handy source of cheap Wargames vehicles which responded well to some tarting up.Within all this we also had 1/76 losing out to 1/72 when the point had passed where it was felt necessary to make things compatible with Airfix. For me it was PSC that convinced me to make that particular jump.

[Smoking gun]

Getting back to the Luchs or Lynx question you may find this series of articles useful.

https://butterfingeredmodelbuilder.wordpress.com/2017/05/04/armory-172-luchs/

Best wishes,
Martin

[carlos marighela]

Interesting point re availability of ranges for the ‘minor powers’ - which I applaud. It’s also interesting that, at least to the best of my knowledge, nobody produces US Army troops for the Pacific theatre in either scale. The only such figure I’ve seen, which scarcely constitutes a range, is one that came with a painting guide, and wore the M1917 helmet, a shameless copy of the British Brodie. Rather a scant basis for gaming the defence of the Philippines, got those so inclined.

Considering the US Army did a lot more than just defend the Philippines, it's a considerable ommission. That said, there are figures that can be made to work. In 28mm for 1941, there are the Bob Murch marines, which come in tin helmeted versions. These can be used as early war US Army. Speaking of the Philippines circa 1941, there's an exquisite set of resin Philippine Scout Cavalry in tin hats out there. A number of folk printing them, so it seems.

For later war US Army, New Guinea, SW Pacific and onwards, then the Perry WW2 metal range steps in. They produce two 6 figure packs, quite sufficient to make up a full strength US Army squad with all the required kit, in shirtsleeves and bare helmets. Pretty much ideal for the US Army in the Pacific.

Eureka do a fullish range of US Army and Philippine Scouts in 15mm that complement their Japanese.

As to 28mm having overtaken 20mm in terms of exotica, I'm inclined to agree. I have pre-war Czechs and Chinese and most belligerants in WW2 are available in some way, shape or foim in 28mm. About the only and to my my mind quite bizarre ommission to date has been Red Army troops for the Winter War and one of LAF's members is currently remedying that gap.

If you look at the world of 3D resin prints, there's very little in terms of WW2 vehicles that aren't covered. I even recently discovered a local printing firm making a full range of Czech armour and softskins. 3D resin prints have some many advantages over plastic lits to start with but the sheer variety of subject material means 1/72 is no longer king. Of course most of these things can be printed at 1/72 or 15mm if people so desire.

[Hang Tuah]

Far more in 20mm options than any other size and, frankly, they just look better than many 28s on the market.

The first part is frankly untrue this day when so many 20mm options have disappeared. To say nothing of the fact that 28mm makers are now covering subjects unexplored in 20mm. It is true that AB is still churning out new releases, but like Adler they are only doing stuff that are already out there, like US airborne and late war Russians. That is hardly enrichening the variety of choices you claimed. Whereas the Perrys have been known to go off the beaten path, producing British Yeomanry cavalry and US infantry in shirtsleeves.

Hang Tuah, this was exactly my perception of the market situation and which prompted my original post.  Whatever our views might be on which scale is best 28mm is where the new products are coming from.

The future for 20mm looks bleak. Aside from AB, Elhiem and Simons Soldiers I cannot envision any new releases. Certainly not any new nationalities. Elhiem is coming out with a Dutch East Indies but that was a private commission. Whereas I think we will one day see Persians and Iraqis in 28mm. But I am surprised you have not mentioned S-Models and First to Fight. Both produce kits that are far superior to PSC.

Considering the US Army did a lot more than just defend the Philippines, it's a considerable ommission. That said, there are figures that can be made to work. In 28mm for 1941, there are the Bob Murch marines, which come in tin helmeted versions. These can be used as early war US Army. Speaking of the Philippines circa 1941, there's an exquisite set of resin Philippine Scout Cavalry in tin hats out there. A number of folk printing them, so it seems.

Brigade Games actually has a dedicated range of early war US infantry and Filipinos.

Interesting point re availability of ranges for the ‘minor powers’ - which I applaud. It’s also interesting that, at least to the best of my knowledge, nobody produces US Army troops for the Pacific theatre in either scale. The only such figure I’ve seen, which scarcely constitutes a range, is one that came with a painting guide, and wore the M1917 helmet, a shameless copy of the British Brodie. Rather a scant basis for gaming the defence of the Philippines, got those so inclined.

Actually early war US troops are available in 20mm from EWM, Raventhorpe and Platoon20. The latter two brands were featured in a Wake Island display game put together by the writers of Rapid Fire.

About the only and to my my mind quite bizarre ommission to date has been Red Army troops for the Winter War and one of LAF's members is currently remedying that gap.

Do you not like the range by Parkfield Miniatures?

[shadowbeast]

Not so. They can be pricey but there is a wealth of suitable new and second hand European buildings in 1/87 from folk like Faller, Heki, Noch etc. Would have made current projects a lot easier had I gone 20mm.

So, actually. 1/87 might suit a more mathematically perfect 20mm, but is too small for a people who think a compact car that already blocks two lanes "looks a little small". It is most definitely not "OO scale".

The first part is frankly untrue this day when so many 20mm options have disappeared.

So have so many 28mm options. For one thing, I can't find a 2pdr tank attack carrier in either scale.

Just play what you want and stop making up excuses not to enjoy your hobby. Scales don't die just because some oddball that only you have heard of isn't in production.

[carlos marighela]

"Brigade Games actually has a dedicated range of early war US infantry and Filipinos."

Quite right, I had forgotten about those. Sculpted by the late Mike Broadbent. Not their best work or even his TBH. There's also a range of Filipino guerillas by the same sculptor through Company B.

"Do you not like the range by Parkfield Miniatures?"

Er no. Admittedly they are great deal better than the grotesque offerings by the old Baker Company but they really aren't that flash.

It's weird, any number of people do Winter War Finns, including Brigade games.

[carlos marighela]

So, actually. 1/87 might suit a more mathematically perfect 20mm, but is too small for a people who think a compact car that already blocks two lanes "looks a little small". It is most definitely not "OO scale".
So have so many 28mm options. For one thing, I can't find a 2pdr tank attack carrier in either scale.

Just play what you want and stop making up excuses not to enjoy your hobby. Scales don't die just because some oddball that only you have heard of isn't in production.

If people think that Dapol, Hornby and PECO are accurately scaled for 1/72 then they are kidding themselves. It's a case of buggers can't be choosers and if you can live with the fact that your building avatar's look a little small, the choices are there. Of course there's also a wealth of 20mm scaled 3D prints out there now, alas mostly Normandy focussed.

As it happens, there are very few model buildings that are accurately scaled, ie they have the actual scale footprint of their real life counterparts. Wargamers would reject tham as being too big and too expensive if they were.

https://www.wargaming3d.com/product/australian-2-pounder-atg-universal-carrier/

[shadowbeast]

No, they are scaled for 1/76. The difference is of little consequence. It is far less than the difference between 1/72 and 1/87.