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Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Hippocleides on 29 January 2025, 09:55:53 PM
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Hello everyone,
I thought I'd share a project I've been working on for the Battle of Raphia 217 BC. I've been collecting and painting up the Seleucid forces for the battle mainly using the following two sources for research on troop deployment and composition:
-Polybius, Book V
-The Seleucid Army of Antiochus the Great by Jean Charl du Plessis
In his book, Jean Charl Du Plessis provides really great insight on the equipment, composition and history of the army, along with some convincing speculation on the troop types, how they were armed and their role during the battle which I'll bring up later. He also includes an image for the layout of the Seleucid army for the battle, which helps clarify the order of battle from Polybius and acts as a useful guide to follow for painting and determining numbers of figures, as sources for exact numbers of men in each unit tend to vary a bit depending on the translation of Polybius.
I'll break down these posts into 4 different sections for the army: the left wing, the phalanx, the right wing and lastly the entire army in formation. I aimed for a scale of 1 figure loosely representing 250-500 men.
Part 1 (The Left Wing)
"At the extreme point of the left wing Antiochus placed 2,000 cavalry under the command of Themison"
- Polybius
Themison - Wargames Foundry
Cavalry - Relic Miniatures
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"With these were 500 Lydian javelineers and 1,000 Cardaces under Lysimachus the Gaul"
- Polybius
Lysimachus the Gaul - Aventine Miniatures
Cardaces - Victrix and Wargames Atlantic
Lydians - Gorgon Miniatures
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"The remainder of the elephants he placed in front of his left wing under the command of Myiscus, one of the young men who had been brought up at court."
-Polybius
Elephant & Crew - Warlord Games
Elephant Guard - Victrix
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"There were Agrianian and Persian bowmen and slingers to the number of 2,000 and with them 2,000 Thracians, all under the command of Menedemus of Alabanda"
-Polybius
The banner for Menedemus references the founder of the city of Alabanda, Alabandus. According to legend, after he had won a prize in some sort of horse race, the people named him Alabandus, as the Carian word for "horse" was ala, and "victory" banda.
Menedemus - Aventine
Persian Archers - Footsore Miniatures
Agrianian Slingers - Gorgon Miniatures
Thracians - Aventine
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"Aspasianus the Mede had under him a force of about 5,000 Medes, Cissians, Cadusians, and Carmanians"
- Polybius
Aspasianus - Victrix
Troops - Victrix and Wargames Atlantic
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"The Arabs and neighboring tribes numbered about 10,000 and were commanded by Zabdibelus, continuing the line up to the phalanx"
- Polybius
These were a bit tricky as sources and depictions for pre-islamic Arab soldiers are lacking for this time period. I went with a mix inspired mostly by Nabataean, Arab tribesmen and some I think would fit as Syrian and Levant area levies. Some of the clothing and armor is probably a bit anachronistic but I think overall they look the part well. The banner references some common Nabataean symbols, such as the horns of plenty and sun.
Figures - Gripping Beast, Artizan Designs, Crusader Miniatures, Wargames Atlantic
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To be continued!
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That's a fabulous looking army! Each unit is so distinct.
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Wonderful work. I am going to enjoy watching this grow.
Richard
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Now *that* is an elephant!
Nice work all around.
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Beautiful work. I built and painted a Seleucid/Successor army a few years ago, but it has hardly been on the table. I have the Du Plessis book but you might have inspired me to finally read it and maybe assemble and paint a few more of the "Arab/Eastern" units as most of my army has a distinctly "Greek" feel to it.
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Excellent work! I am currently amassing figures for a Seleucid army this will be great inspiration for when I start painting them later in the year.
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Lovely painting!
I'm sure there's a reference to the Arabs receiving "arms and equipment" before the battle .
If it's anywhere it would be Polybius; I may be misrembering and it could just be surmised and justification for giving them Hellenistic helmets and thureos as some miniaturists have done for their armies.....
BTW what rules are these designed for?
Neil
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Thanks everyone.
Lovely painting!
I'm sure there's a reference to the Arabs receiving "arms and equipment" before the battle .
If it's anywhere it would be Polybius; I may be misrembering and it could just be surmised and justification for giving them Hellenistic helmets and thureos as some miniaturists have done for their armies.....
BTW what rules are these designed for?
Neil
They're intended and based to be used for To the Strongest.
That is a good point and real possibility though I couldn't find clear evidence for them being equipped as such, I'm sure at least some would have had Hellenistic equipment. Polybius mentions they and the Medes broke when charged by the Ptolemaic Greek Mercenaries, so I interpreted it as that they wouldn't have been very well equipped and broke quickly. I'd imagine they just brought what they owned or maybe would not have been worth equipping 10,000 of them from the Seleucid armory, but that's pure speculation on my part.
The main reason I chose against the Hellenistic equipment route is just for variety in the army and having something different to paint other than more Greek stuff. Painting up all these phalangites can drive a man mad! :D I could probably get away with using them for other armies outside this specific time period without the Hellenistic gear as well.
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I love the mix of miniatures to give this army a distinct and very Eastern feel. The lack of uniformity is a huge plus in my book!
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Thanks everyone.
They're intended and based to be used for To the Strongest.
That is a good point and real possibility though I couldn't find clear evidence for them being equipped as such, I'm sure at least some would have had Hellenistic equipment. Polybius mentions they and the Medes broke when charged by the Ptolemaic Greek Mercenaries, so I interpreted it as that they wouldn't have been very well equipped and broke quickly. I'd imagine they just brought what they owned or maybe would not have been worth equipping 10,000 of them from the Seleucid armory, but that's pure speculation on my part.
The main reason I chose against the Hellenistic equipment route is just for variety in the army and having something different to paint other than more Greek stuff. Painting up all these phalangites can drive a man mad! :D I could probably get away with using them for other armies outside this specific time period without the Hellenistic gear as well.
Your decision is as good as any! I think the Arabs in Hellenistic equipment is just a wargamer "best guess", although there are hints they were Nabateans.
I wondered if it was TTS - I assume you have seen the free scenario?
Are you doing the Ptolemaics as well? ☺
Neil
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Your decision is as good as any! I think the Arabs in Hellenistic equipment is just a wargamer "best guess", although there are hints they were Nabateans.
I wondered if it was TTS - I assume you have seen the free scenario?
Are you doing the Ptolemaics as well? ☺
Neil
I'll have to check it out. I'd like to eventually do Ptolemaics as well, I've got a few units for them painted up already.
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Fantastic looking army! Very inspirational!
Christopher
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Terrific work - lovely looking army with fantastic blending of a variety of ranges.
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A fantastic start. Nice to see the wide variety of manufacturers you've used.
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Part 2 - The Center Phalanx
Hello all, I thought I'd show off the progress on the army of Antiochus III. This was a lot of pikes to paint to put it mildly. Looking back I would definitely break up the painting process with other units in between pike blocks for sanity's sake! o_o But overall I enjoyed painting them up and thought they turned out well.
"The phalanx was about twenty thousand strong and was under the command of Nicarchus and Theodotus surnamed Hemiolius"
- Polybius
I used broomstick pikes for all of the phalangites. Between the two, I loved painting up the Foundry figures compared to the Polemarch. I found the latter a bit tedious to paint for some reason and a good amount of cleaning up was needed beforehand. I'll probably be going with Foundry for more phalangites if I expand the army in the future.
Phalangites - Wargames Foundry, Polemarch
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"Under Theodotus, the Aetolian, who had deserted from Ptolemy, were ten thousand picked men from the whole kingdom, armed in the Macedonian fashion, most of whom had silver shields"
-Polybius
For the Argyraspides I went with a bit of variety compared to a completely uniform look, lots of bold colors to depict their elite status. I used wargames foundry shields in combination with nearly all Polemarch figures. These were much more enjoyable to paint compared to the rank and file Polemarch phalangites.
Theodotus - Wargames Foundry
Argyraspides - Polemarch
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Depicting the following troops was the most challenging of the army aside from the Arabs, as Polybius offers conflicting details on how these troops were equipped and their role in the battle.
Initially, in discussing the force available to Antiochus prior to the battle, he describes them as:
"Daae, Carmani, and Cilicians, equipped as light-armed troops to the number of about five thousand, under the charge and command of Byttacus the Macedonian"
However, not long after when he describes the dispositions of battle, he describes them as:
"five thousand armed in the Macedonian fashion under the command of Byttacus the Macedonian"
I decided to depict them as the latter in a small unit. Jean Charl du Plessis in his book speculates that these light troops may have been hastily rearmed with sarissa and deployed as phalangites in an effort to match the superior mass and numbers of the Ptolemaic phalanx.
All in all, it just seemed more appealing to make some ragtag phalangites with some more eastern flair, rather than more light troops.
Figures - Crusader, Polemarch, Wargames Foundry
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Hope to be back with part 3 and have the army completed soon!
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Very inspiration project, the figures look fantastic. I love the creativity and time spent on conversions etc. I love the tone of the colors you were able to achieve - did you use some kind of weathering product for the cloaks etc or dry brushing - for the worn and dusty look?
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Smart work 8)
Inspiring stuff mate.
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Beautiful work all around! And, yeah, the dust on the cloaks how did you do that, it looks great.
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Thanks everyone. The dust effect was from a drybrush of Vallejo cork brown then some Vallejo light sienna pigment powder thrown on.
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First - absolutely fabulous work. Love the deep shadows with the bright pops of color.
Second - you painted nearly 100 figures in 5 weeks!?! Crazy work.
Third - this is really a statement of the value on building the whole army in a focused period of time. The planning is meticulous, and the painting/basing is consistent through out. Compare that with my armies that have slowly built up over 10+ years - everything is just a little (or a lot) bit different lol
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Those pikes are beautiful! Really nice work.
Neil
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Brilliant project, from planning to execution and presentation. Very effective.
Thanks for sharing!
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Stunning work!
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The pikes look great! Really nice work :D
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Superb phalanx units !!
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Your decision is as good as any! I think the Arabs in Hellenistic equipment is just a wargamer "best guess", although there are hints they were Nabateans.
I wondered if it was TTS - I assume you have seen the free scenario?
Are you doing the Ptolemaics as well? ?
Neil
When I builty both sides in 15mm Xyston Minis, I used their Maccabean Jews for the Arabs mentiond in the army lists.
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That Eastern-looking, rag-tag phalanx is the bee's knees! :o :-* o_o
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Amazing. I love how you've mixed many manufactures in the same units. All seem to go together very well.
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Really outstanding work from planning to presentation!
Christopher
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Impressive by anyone's mark. It made me reach for my Diadochi. you cannot beat that.
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Hello All, and thank you for all the replies above!
I'm back with Part 3 of my Seleucid Raphia project, this time focusing on the final component of the army, the right wing and King himself! Some of these models I believe I've shown in posts way back when, they were some of the first 28mm successors I painted with no intended purpose, but they've found a home in this army. Continuing down the battle line:
“Hippolochus the Thessalian commanded the mercenaries from Greece, five thousand in number.”
-Polybius
These are great figures to paint and some of my favorite from the Polemarch range. They were nicely cast and had minimal clean up.
Figures: Polemarch Thureophoroi
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“Antiochus had also fifteen hundred Cretans under Eurylochus and a thousand Neocretans under Zelys of Gortyna”
-Polybius
I contemplated basing the commanders separately but the idea and the look of them just screaming into the ears of the archers was too tempting not to do! I could not find any clear consensus on the distinction between Cretans and Neo-Cretans or whether they were armed differently. Perhaps the Cretans were actually from Crete and the Neo-Cretans just fought in that style, or vice versa, who knows. I’m curious to hear what everyone’s thoughts are on that matter.
Archers - Victrix
Zelys - Wargames Foundry
Eurylochus - Aventine Miniatures
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“Antiochus also placed sixty of his elephants commanded by his foster-brother Philip in front of his right wing”
-Polybius
Man, the Aventine elephants are top notch, absolute joy to paint. I thought of adding more elaborate designs on the elephant blankets but opted to just leave it bare, dusty solid colors. You have to imagine the amount of dust these animals stirred up on this battlefield and I tried to replicate that.
Elephant & Crew - Aventine
Elephant guard - Victrix
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“Behind these he stationed the two thousand cavalry commanded by Antipater, and two thousand more at right angles to them”
-Polybius
The Companion Cavalry and Agema fought along with Antiochus. The distinction between the two is examined by Jean Charl Du Plessis in his book. He mentions the Agema were made up of picked men from the nobles or wealthier horsemen from the eastern satrapies, particularly Medes. They fought and were likely equipped in the same manner as the Companions, which consisted of the Hellenic nobles and friends. The consensus is that they both fought with the Xyston lance and donned similar armor most likely at the time of Raphia. The remainder of the cavalry was equipped similarly to that of the left wing.
Antipater - Polemarch Miniatures
Agema - Polemarch Miniatures
Companions - Wargames Foundry
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Antiochus with his royal guard had reached his extreme right, they gave the signal for battle”
-Polybius
Antiochus the Great, the King himself, a great model by Relic and a pleasure to paint. The model is slightly larger than the rest but I think that is acceptable for the King and helps him stand out amongst the cavalry. He mixes well with the Aventine guards, I think. The white horse and rich purples add a bit more gravitas to the base compared to the others.
Antiochus - Relic Miniatures
Guards - Aventine Miniatures
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I hope to have some pictures or even a video of the full army on display/ in action soon, maybe even a camp.
Thanks again everyone for your interest and the replies. This was more than a year's worth of painting for me as I'm a relatively slow painter but I really enjoyed it. Maybe even a Ptolemaic army is on the horizon.
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This is shaping up to be an extremely interesting (and useful!) blog! The painting is fab :-*- so is the info 8)
May I ask, in the unit of Thureophoroi- how many ordinary poses, minus the command, do Polemarch Thureophoroi have? I did email gripping beast and they just said, "what you see in the image".....
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Thanks! For the eight figures I got in a pack there were 4 unique poses. Though 2 of those poses are similar with the overhand grip The only difference I could tell was one pose having a cloak and the other just the tunic.
Here's a good shot of them:
https://badgergames.com/shop/gripping-beast-saga/saga/age-of-hannibal/mercenaries/gb-sahm04-thureophoroi-d/
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That’s beautiful work! A really inspiring set of figures there, I’ll be referring to it when I get back to painting ancients.
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Thanks! For the eight figures I got in a pack there were 4 unique poses. Though 2 of those poses are similar with the overhand grip The only difference I could tell was one pose having a cloak and the other just the tunic.
Here's a good shot of them:
https://badgergames.com/shop/gripping-beast-saga/saga/age-of-hannibal/mercenaries/gb-sahm04-thureophoroi-d/
Many thanks; I know now why they didn't just tell me that!!?? o_o
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Many thanks; I know now why they didn't just tell me that!!?? o_o
These days your email may have been read by ai (or a more primitive parsing program) and a stock response generated.
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Absolutely lovely painting! Stunning!
"I could not find any clear consensus on the distinction between Cretans and Neo-Cretans or whether they were armed differently. Perhaps the Cretans were actually from Crete and the Neo-Cretans just fought in that style, or vice versa, who knows. I’m curious to hear what everyone’s thoughts are on that matter."
I recall a debate about this many years ago in Slingshot, along with "armed in the Cretan manner" and whether that meant bow armed, or as per the Anabasis armed with a shield as well. The debate was inconclusive but postulated that it meant more than just archers, possibly with the ability to fight hand to hand. This brought in "Neocretans" and debate whether they were different again. It was pointed out "Neo" may just refer to youths or associations outside Crete.
I think Duncan Head summarises the debate in Armies of the Macedonian & Punic wars.
Short answer; no-one knows for sure......
Neil
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Absolutely lovely painting! Stunning!
"I could not find any clear consensus on the distinction between Cretans and Neo-Cretans or whether they were armed differently. Perhaps the Cretans were actually from Crete and the Neo-Cretans just fought in that style, or vice versa, who knows. I’m curious to hear what everyone’s thoughts are on that matter."
I recall a debate about this many years ago in Slingshot, along with "armed in the Cretan manner" and whether that meant bow armed, or as per the Anabasis armed with a shield as well. The debate was inconclusive but postulated that it meant more than just archers, possibly with the ability to fight hand to hand. This brought in "Neocretans" and debate whether they were different again. It was pointed out "Neo" may just refer to youths or associations outside Crete.
I think Duncan Head summarises the debate in Armies of the Macedonian & Punic wars.
Short answer; no-one knows for sure......
Neil
Interesting, thanks for the info.
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I was also wondering what Neo-Cretan was. Thanks for the info, but I would go with "armed in the Cretan style" for my army design.
This all looks great.... amazing even, but I think you might need a few more elephants? What a shame!
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This is beautiful work and a great to see miniatures from the various manufacturers.
Richard
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I'll second the calls for a full army showcase! Really impressive stuff, both the scale of the project AND the great paintjobs :-*
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I'll second the calls for a full army showcase! Really impressive stuff, both the scale of the project AND the great paintjobs :-*
Thirded! and the Secret rule of LAF (which I may or may not be making up) is, once Thirded, you have to show all (OK, not all. but all the newly painted toys!) ;D
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I'm really impressed by your painting style, which I like.
this Antiochus III's army is superb!!
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Thanks everyone.
I'll have to a find a new battle mat and some terrain to do a full army pic/video justice, if anyone has any recommendations for an arid looking mat let me know! I've only a few small dba mats, and they don't really look right pieced together lol
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Thanks everyone.
I'll have to a find a new battle mat and some terrain to do a full army pic/video justice, if anyone has any recommendations for an arid looking mat let me know! I've only a few small dba mats, and they don't really look right pieced together lol
As you are looking at TTS a nice mat with dots is by Geek Villian; it goes out of stock quite regularly!
https://geekvillain.co.uk/collections/fleece-battlemats-6ft-x-4ft/products/wargaming-battle-mat-6x4-sicily-strength-honor
Otherwise Simon Millar's Iberian mat:
https://bigredbatshop.co.uk/collections/all/products/iberian-plains-design-battle-mat-6-x-4-15cm-grid
Neil
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Superbly painted and based figures. Very inspiring work.
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Incredible miniatures, love the way you painted them.
Do you do an overall sepia/brown light wash to get that faded and unified look, or is it just the colors that you're using? I really like how, even if they're all different, they feel like part of the same army due to the cohesive paint job.
Also Antiochus does look a little on the big side, but I think he blends in really well with the Aventine figures. I also have the Aventine later hetairoi and was considering buying that same Antiochus, will surely do it now that I've seen a side by side comparison.
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Incredible miniatures, love the way you painted them.
Do you do an overall sepia/brown light wash to get that faded and unified look, or is it just the colors that you're using? I really like how, even if they're all different, they feel like part of the same army due to the cohesive paint job.
Also Antiochus does look a little on the big side, but I think he blends in really well with the Aventine figures. I also have the Aventine later hetairoi and was considering buying that same Antiochus, will surely do it now that I've seen a side by side comparison.
Thanks! I didn't use any washes but I did prime the majority of them using a reddish brown color which gives them that look (rustoleum flat red spray).
The Antiochus model was great to paint but it did require some green stuff to fill some gaps between the rider and horse.
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most inspiring,
the research, the figurine choise, the painting and presentation
just give us more :-)