Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: SJWi on April 14, 2025, 07:20:57 AM
-
Having played and enjoyed a small game of SDttrR yesterday, I rather rashly agreed to buy a mates unpainted VDV as an interesting add-on to my Soviets. I have 3 BMD2s and a few bases of infantry, which is enough to be going on with. My mate commented that I could add an ASU-85 or two to the force, but I'm unsure whether the ASU-85 and BMD2 were used together or if the BMD replaced the ASU. My reference books are pretty silent on the matter, and Google has so far let me down.
Any help out there??
Thanks.
-
BMD-2s came in in the mid to late 1980s (intro date of 1985 but then lag factor). Org charts for the VDV divisions in 1984 show the ASU-85 assault gun battalion present. IIRc they stayed around with the VDV Airborne Divisions until the end of the Cold War. They were never part of the Air Assault Brigades, which technically speaking weren't part of the VDV anyway although that's where most of them came from and they had a similar function.
-
Iirc Afghanistan saw the end of the ASU 85 - they simply weren't capable of front-line combat. If memory serves, airborne companies had a weapons platoon with BTR-D's (the stretched BMD without turret) carrying support weapons sections. I shall have to go back and consult my books and army lists!
Any discussion of the VDV quickly bogs down into which sort - the Front level airborne assault units, the long-range recce units or the independant airborne brigades, not to mention the companies of Naval Infantry which were armed and equipped identically to the VDV (except perhaps for a black uniform?).
-
As a further update, I have an in-service date of 1987 for the BMD2, although the sources I have also suggested it may have been fielded in small numbers (3 per company at most) for a few years earlier than that but certainly no earlier than about 1984/5. The ASU-85 was withdrawn from front-line service early-mid 80's so would not have been used with the BMD2 (the last ASU-85's in Afghanistan were used as part of the defences around Kabul, in heavily fortified static positions). However, the Nona (120mm on BTRD chassis) entered service in 1984/5 as far as I can tell so would probably make a better support unit with the BMD2's.
Hope this helps.
-
My Jane's Armour and Artillery 1991-1992 states the BMD2 was "first observed" in 1988, which likely means it was in service a bit before that. Initial deployment was apparently 9 per airborne regiment, but from then on replaced the BMD1 on a vehicle-per-vehicle basis.
As for the ASU-85, it lists it as still in service with the USSR as of publication.
Based on that info, both were in service in the late 80s...
-
Chaps, thanks for the information. As SDttRR needs a pretty low vehicle count ( at least for my 6 x 4' table) I reckon I can get away with at least one ASU-85 with my BMDs.
-
This SPG was officially withdrawn from service in 1985. Of course, it took some time to replace these SPGs in the troops. They were replaced in the troops by the SPG "Nona" 2S9, which began to enter the troops in 1981.
BMD-2 was accepted into service in 1985. So if these machines could be used simultaneously, then only for a very limited time.
-
Cuprum, thanks for the insight. Unfortunately no-one seems to produce a NONA in 15mm or else I would look at that. As I tried to research deeper I also found reference ( and pictures of) an airborne APC called a BTRD. Some sources describe it as a "heavy weapons towing vehicle", others as an APC, as it can carry more personnnel than a turreted BMD .Do you know what was the relationship organisationally between the BMD and BTRD?
I've just found several books I bought back in the 1980s that seemed to contain the "state of the art" public domain information available in the West at that time. Loads of information on Tank and Motor Rifle units but frustratingly thin on the VDV.
-
I am not a big expert on modern armed forces, but I think this article will answer some of your questions (automatic translation from Russian):
https://topwar-ru.translate.goog/136600-bronya-krylatoy-pehoty-chast-2-ya.html?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Mod edit: no filesharing of copyrighted material.
-
I think you'll find the BTR-D was used primarily with the support platoons within the airborne/ air assault battalions. Sub units like the automatic grenade launcher platoon, the SAM platoon etc. The platoons within the companies were organised in a similar manner to Motor Rifles with three BMDs (BMD-1 or 2) each. Presumably BTR-Ds were also used elsewhere within the regiment and division, often enough as towing vehicles.
I have no idea what scale Seven Days to the River Rhine operates at but if it represents vehicles at 1:1 then you might want at least a couple more ASU-85s if you are intending to field any. It's pretty unusual for single AFVs to be detached in most armies, the Soviets in particular, Usually they don't operate in at the level of the lowest tactical level, ie a platoon. There are occasions, in Western armies where a half platoon may operate, because they have the command infrastructure to do this but armour is big on mutual support. The singular instance I can think of in Soviet doctrine is the advance guard of a MRR/ MRB where an MBT might be paired with a motor rifle platoon as the forward recce element. Naturally you may get down to a single vehicle through attrition, break down etc but doctrinally it's rare to see them deployed that way.
Of course if SDRR works on a vehicle = a platoon like Command Decision and a few other systems did you could probably justify the single vehicle.
-
Carlos, thanks. SDttRR operates at 1-1 for vehicles and a base of infantry equals a squad. As it has unlimited weapon ranges unless you have a big table ( which I don't), I normally only field a troop of tanks plus some support vehicles and a platoon or two of infantry. We view it as more a "beer and pretzels" game so 100% historical accuracy isn't top of the agenda. I do like to "keep in period" though, hence my question about the date of the BMD2. I just wish I'd kept more of my stock of books from the '80s, albeit I suspect they weren't as accurate as I thought!
-
Cuprum, thanks for the insight. Unfortunately no-one seems to produce a NONA in 15mm or else I would look at that. As I tried to research deeper I also found reference ( and pictures of) an airborne APC called a BTRD. Some sources describe it as a "heavy weapons towing vehicle", others as an APC, as it can carry more personnnel than a turreted BMD .Do you know what was the relationship organisationally between the BMD and BTRD?
I've just found several books I bought back in the 1980s that seemed to contain the "state of the art" public domain information available in the West at that time. Loads of information on Tank and Motor Rifle units but frustratingly thin on the VDV.
The Nona's alphanumeric designation is the 2S9, so companies might be listing it as 2S9 instead of Nona. Yes, it's based on the BTR-D chassis. It was also called SO-120 in NATO sources before we knew what it's proper name was and I remember Heroics & Ros listing it as such in their 1/300th range. QRF, Battlefront and Armies Army all did them in 15mm, though I don't know if they still do at this moment (QRF have 'difficulties', AA seem to be out of production and Battlefront periodically put things out of production). Butler's Printed Models also do it in 15mm.
-
Cuprum, thanks for the insight. Unfortunately no-one seems to produce a NONA in 15mm or else I would look at that. As I tried to research deeper I also found reference ( and pictures of) an airborne APC called a BTRD. Some sources describe it as a "heavy weapons towing vehicle", others as an APC, as it can carry more personnnel than a turreted BMD .Do you know what was the relationship organisationally between the BMD and BTRD?
I've just found several books I bought back in the 1980s that seemed to contain the "state of the art" public domain information available in the West at that time. Loads of information on Tank and Motor Rifle units but frustratingly thin on the VDV.
I forgot to mention that the BTR-D (introduced in the late 1970s) is essentially a 'stretched', turretless BMD with an extra roadwheel. It was used to carry the heavy weapons squads, such as AGS-17 30mm AGLs or ATGMs. Some had ZU-23-2 AAA mounted on the roof.
-
Jemima, thanks. I've looked at the QRF website which seems now pretty impossible to navigate except via the search function, and it has no photos. They seem to produce both the ASU95 and 2S9/NONA. I might just take the risk, as the only alternative seems a pretty old Butlers model.
-
Jemima, thanks. I've looked at the QRF website which seems now pretty impossible to navigate except via the search function, and it has no photos. They seem to produce both the ASU95 and 2S9/NONA. I might just take the risk, as the only alternative seems a pretty old Butlers model.
DON'T buy anything from QRF at the moment! There are major issues: https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1202356471899954&id=100063768362241
-
I have been looking for a Nona for a while now as well. As far as I know, Butlers do a model of the 2B16 Nona-K, which was the same turret fitted to a BTR80 hull (the K stands for wheeled). The model you want is the 2S9 Nona-S fitted to the BTRD hull, which is basically a BMD hull lengthened with an extra road wheel but no turret, just a pintle mounted mg on the base version. I have found 15mm resin printed models of the Nona-S on ebay and, of course, Battlefront do a battery of 3 models as a box set - not sure if you'll be able to find one on its own though.
As an update, I just checked and Butlers do now make a model of the 2S9 Nona-S, so I do apologise and my information was a bit out of date - unless you want the Nona-K of course!
-
Jemima, many thanks for the warning. A bad situation but not unlike a few others in the hobby . My search for an ASU-85 and NONA goes on. A mate of mine has pointed out some Battlefront Team Yankee ones on E-Bay but I definitely don't want 5 and 3 pf them respectively.
-
BobMack 3D has files for both the ASU-85 and the BTR-D. There are a number of commercial printing services that produce resin prints of these. If you haven't seen them, they are absolutely first rate sculpts. Of course if you have a 3D printer or know someone who does, you can just order the files.
https://bobmack3d.myshopify.com/collections/soviet-vehicles-of-the-cold-war-3d-print-stl-files?page=3
Here's the 2S9 Nona in 15mm:
https://bobmack3d.myshopify.com/collections/soviet-vehicles-of-the-cold-war-3d-print-stl-files?page=3
-
Battlefield 3D who are one of the best 3d resin print companies, do a 2S-9,
https://battlefield3d.com/product/2s9-nona-s/
they also do the BTR-D Robot, BTR-ZD with twin 23mm, BTR-D, all essential items for a BMD based airborne unit.
No ASU-85 though.
Currently taking about 4 weeks to complete my orders.
There are assorted VDV lists in the MicroMark collection over on the Wargames Vault
R43MA: Russian Airborne Division 1982-1990, all theatres
R44MA: Russian Airborne Division 1989+, Russia
R83M: Russian Airborne Division 1983-1989, Afghanistan
R325M: Russian 104th Guards Airborne Division, Kirovabad, Azerbaijan, 1988-1990
R339M: Russian 76th Guards Airborne Division, Leningrad MD, 1986-1991
-
The Nona-S was developed in 1981, entered service in 1984/5 but really wasn't fielded in numbers until 1987/88. Similarly the BTRD (other than the base specialist apc version) variants weren't fielded in numbers until 88-90, when they took over from the BRDM at and aa vehicles. For the VDV of 1984/5 they simply wouldn't have many of those BTRD vehicles - it takes years to get from prototype to production, from production to mass production, then training the soldiers to use them to actually getting them onto the battlefield.
-
It's a bit academic anyway as, if you're using 7dttrR, there are no stats for them in the book; I would treat the BTRD as a BTR50 - same mobility, armour and weapon. The BTR-RD "Robot" is basically just a specialist atgm team carrier; BTR50 plus support ATGM team and, if your opponent allows, the ability to fire the ATGM while mounted. Same with the AGS17 g/l team as there is a specialist BTRD with pintle mounts for the Plamya g/l to fire mounted. If the support team dismounts (and why wouldn't you?) then so do the weapons.
As to the BTRD with the portee ZU 23-2 in a completely exposed mount on the top, I'd treat it as a Shilka but ANY hit that gives morale markers will knock out the gun team, whether it penetrates or not.
-
As a further update, I have an in-service date of 1987 for the BMD2, although the sources I have also suggested it may have been fielded in small numbers (3 per company at most) for a few years earlier than that but certainly no earlier than about 1984/5. The ASU-85 was withdrawn from front-line service early-mid 80's so would not have been used with the BMD2 (the last ASU-85's in Afghanistan were used as part of the defences around Kabul, in heavily fortified static positions). However, the Nona (120mm on BTRD chassis) entered service in 1984/5 as far as I can tell so would probably make a better support unit with the BMD2's.
Hope this helps.
I, too, was under the impression the ASU-85 was completely removed from service by the mid-80s. After all, the Polish had removed it from their ORBAT for the 6th Pomeranian Airborne Division in 1976. But indeed, the Soviets kept the ASU-85 "in service" until 1993 (well, the Russians did). I first stumbled upon this information in the German Wikipedia, but two other sources back this up: 1) The US field manual FM 100-2-3: The Soviet Army: Troops, Organization, and Equipment from July 1991 (cf. here pp. 4-149 and 4-154: https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/fm100-2-3.pdf) as well as 2) this webiste in Russian (https://desantura.ru/articles/15/?PAGEN_1=3), which states in its penultimate paragraph, last sentence: " The SU-85s were taken out of service only in 1993." The German Wikipedia however clarifies that the "majority" of the vehicles by than had been mothballed.
Clearly, the majority of Soviet ASU-85 was gradually replaced since the introduction of the original BMD. After all, the reason to field the BMD-- with the same gun as the BMP-1 was so that VDV infantry could field organic anti-tank weaponry under armor. With BMD receiving AT-3 and later ATGM, the ASU-85 lost even further in purpose. However, the Soviets had a huge number of troops to reequip: with 6 active airborne divisions, (IIRC) 17 independent airborne brigades and one spetsnaz regiment to fit out, these things took time.
And once Cold War had gotten hot and VDV force were eaten up during initial operations and then reconstituted in the motherland, they might have gotten their ASU-85s back due to lack of BMDs. By then, these vehicles would've been sitting in depots anywhere from 5-15 years, which means reactivation would've been possible. Look at what Russia pulls out of depots today.
Bottom line: Front line units on D+0 or even D+30 in 1985? Probably no, unless we're talking Afganistan or - you know - you just roll with it, because "the unit redeployed from Afganistan and jumped right into battle" (and why not?). Then, D+90: Absolutely could see that.
-
The ASU 85's were almost certainly withdrawn from all Soviet Cat A formations by about 1985/6, then lingered in the Cat B/C formations until about 1993. Poland only has the equivalent of Cat A formations so withdrew them as soon as something even slightly better came along.
-
See? This is why we aim for 1984 as a sweet spot. lol
The ASU-85, whilst being fairly craptastic, is a sexy looking beast. It's an iconic airborne vehicle and fulfills that need for there to be an SU-85 style 'tank destroyer/SPG' somewhere on the table. I'm usually a bit anal about model types and a rivet counter in general but I'd be prepared to let this one slide. In a similar way, I'm happy to supplement my Soviet infantry with some quite specifically Afghanistan equipped troops (body armour, chest rigs). They exist, look sexy and yeah I can always say they were redeployed in a hurry from A'stan.
I suspect that in the case of the Poles, the 1976 withdrawal of the ASU-85 had more to do with the general reductions evident in the Polish Armed forces due to Poland's dire economic state. The Polish Airborne never fielded BMDs or any of the BMD variants. They were and remained essentially leg infantry. There are a few extant photos of their airborne exercising with OT-64s (the earlier 12.7mm pintle mounted version) but as the Poles had no real airlift for these, this was presumably for specific exercise purposes. They could not have lifted the ASU-85s using their own resources either for that matter and would have been reliant on Soviet airlift for any strategic movement.
The Poles still had Cat C, wartime mobilisation, divisions equipped with T-34/85s until the end of the Cold War, so it can't really be a question of hoping for something better.
-
Very few of the WarPac countries had much in the way of airborne forces - even the East German airborne was more of an elite internal security force. What the Poles did have was a nice big Naval Infantry unit which, in conjunction with Soviet Naval Infantry in the Baltic region, was expected to try to punch out Denmark. The ASU 85 was probably not an asset to either the Naval Infantry or the armoured units and, therefore, not really worth hanging onto.
Someone once said that the Soviets occasionally gifted the WarPac countries with a handful.of new vehicles from time to time; not enough to be useful but they looked pretty in the May parades! Perhaps the Polish ASU 85's were a legacy of this benevolent tokenism?
-
The NVA paras were more of an SF unit than paras. They were essentially a raiding force until about 1986 when there was an expansion from a battalion to the core of an airlanding brigade (40 Luftsturm regiment).
Yes, they did have a role guarding SDE officials and buildings in East Berlin but this aligned, at least in terms of location, with their wartime role. In the Bordenkante '85 and 86 exercises their role was revealed as seizing the major airports in West Berlin. These align with what we know of the East German plan to seize West Berlin, the Zentrum/Stoss operation. Two companies of the 1st Battalion (ex 40 Willi Sänger) were assigned to capture Tegel and another to capture Tempelhof. These were to be heliborne assaults. Gatow btw was the target of a Grenztruppen regiment (battalion sized).
The Polish naval landing division was really more of a brigade sized structure but highly rated. It would have been an interesting multi national force tasked to invade Denmark. Soviet naval infantry, Polish marines and an earmarked East German MRR, trained in amphibious operations.
There's a great little monograph on the NVA paras by a former battalion commander. Worth a read.
https://fallschirmjaeger-der-nva.de/
-
See? This is why we aim for 1984 as a sweet spot. lol
Indeed. It also gives you a possible duel of the StuGs with Soviet ASU-85 having a meeting engagement with the venerable Jagdpanzer Kanone. Both have very similar armor, speed and calibre of the main gun. From 1983 onwards, the Jagdpanzer was taken out of frontline service and handed down to the Heimatschutzregimenter of the territorial forces. Those regiments had almost no heavy fire support, except for six Jagdpanzer, twelve heavy mortars (120 mm) and maybe a Milan per platoon (but more likely Carl Gustaf recoilless rifles). But none of the three battalions had organic heavy weapon companies, so they were basically four platoons per company and four companies per battalion (plus the usual command elements).
-
You do know how that 'duel' will go, don't you? If the ASU85 fires first, the shots'll likely bounce off, then when the Kanonenjagdpanzer fires, it'll gut the ASU85 lengthwise and knock out the one behind as a bonus! lol
-
Indeed. It also gives you a possible duel of the StuGs with Soviet ASU-85 having a meeting engagement with the venerable Jagdpanzer Kanone. Both have very similar armor, speed and calibre of the main gun. From 1983 onwards, the Jagdpanzer was taken out of frontline service and handed down to the Heimatschutzregimenter of the territorial forces. Those regiments had almost no heavy fire support, except for six Jagdpanzer, twelve heavy mortars (120 mm) and maybe a Milan per platoon (but more likely Carl Gustaf recoilless rifles). But none of the three battalions had organic heavy weapon companies, so they were basically four platoons per company and four companies per battalion (plus the usual command elements).
1984 Yup. Plain vanilla Chieftains, no TOGS, no Stillbrew. You can, if you really wish, justify a small number of Challengers, they go their first exercise outing on Ex Crusader in 1984. Ditto the first use of Saxon on the same exercise.
Plain vanilla M1 Abrams with the remote prospect of an M1IP. You can still field the Marder 1A1 with the funky R2D2 remote machine gun on the rear deck. Lots more Leopard 1 variants to play with.
On the other side T-64s are in the ascendant but there are still quire a number of T-62s floating around in GSFG.
-
T-64's (and later, the T-80's) are usually only to be found in GSFG and, possibly, Ukraine SSR units. Rumour had it that they were to be fielded only in units relatively close to their manufacturing bases as they were complicated beasts, needed a lot of maintenance work and, often, urgent replacements! lol
Whether that is true or not, I don't really know, but they were only fielded in those areas and never had an export version (until fairly recently (1990's?) with the 320 Ukraine T-80UD's sold to Pakistan).
-
T-64s were maufactured in Kharkiv. That's quite some distance from say Schwerin or Stendal, so I doubt the story about proximity to manufacture is true.
T-64s were predominant in the GSFG because, until the arrival of the T-80, they respresented the bleeding edge of Soviet tank design. They were the most potent tank in the Soviet arsenal, so they were assigned to the area of greatest threat. By the 1980s they were also quite a mature bit of kit, the earliest versions having been placed into service in the late 1960s.
T-80s have turned up in a number of spots post Cold War. Cyprus bought some and South Korea got about a battalion's worth as a part payment on monies owed by Russia.
-
I did mention it was rumour, didn't I? I did say it might not be true, didn't I? It is an amusing note nonetheless.
Do you have a date on those T-80 sales and which version (just as a matter of interest more than anything) - the Ukraine T-80UD used western electronics and upgrades to the refurbished T-80's they had and were among the first exports of T-80's outside of the Russian sphere of influence (1991 I think, although the final batch were delivered a few years later). It would be interesting, in an academic sort of way, if the transfers you mention were before '91.
-
Do not forget the T-80s bought by Her Majesty's Government during the Soviet withdrawal from Germany.
-
Do not forget the T-80s bought by Her Majesty's Government during the Soviet withdrawal from Germany.
I had no idea. But, upon further research, it was 1992 (not disclosed until 1994), 'several' T-80U's bought in secret through a 3rd party so as not to arouse Russia's suspicion. Aha - glasnost and perestroika DOES only work one way! lol
-
I did mention it was rumour, didn't I? I did say it might not be true, didn't I? It is an amusing note nonetheless.
Do you have a date on those T-80 sales and which version (just as a matter of interest more than anything) - the Ukraine T-80UD used western electronics and upgrades to the refurbished T-80's they had and were among the first exports of T-80's outside of the Russian sphere of influence (1991 I think, although the final batch were delivered a few years later). It would be interesting, in an academic sort of way, if the transfers you mention were before '91.
No, they were all post '91. Part of the peace dividend, if you like. Apparently Cyprus got its first batch of T-80 Us and UKs in 199 6 and 1997 and another batch sometime in the mid 2000s. Not their first Soviet tank either, they had a battalion's worth of T-34s in the 1960s-80s and those saw service during the Turkish invasion, which makes for cool gaming potential . Turkish M47 vs T-34. The Cypriots also purchased BMP-3s around the time of the first T-80 purchase. Russia actually tried to flog a batch to Greece but there were better deals around. Greece of course ended up with large chunk of the ex-NVA, ex Bundeswehr reconditioned BMP-1s.
South Korea received its T-80 Us around the same time as the Cypriots (1996/97). Part exchange for Russia's trade deficit with South Korea. Apparently, they were/are mostly for OPFOR training.
-
I was in error there for the date with the Ukraine T-80's as well, 1993-4+ I think but the pattern fits of countries selling the T-80 variants off in the mid-late 90's. Sweden also considered the T-80 but, like Greece, chose a western tank. Which kind of comes back to the T-64, which was developed into the T-80 apparently without correcting the maintenance issues; one of the sticking points after the T-80's were offered for export is that the spares and ammunition all had to be imported and I can imagine the same of the T-64.
It was a good tank though - even after it was replaced in tank battalions by the T-72 mods and the T-80 mods it was still used in the heavy company of the GSFG divisional recce battalions, so still a fairly effective tank throughout the 80's.
-
i've got a solitary ASU in my VDV force... its a Butlers model... if you want to have a look at the photo before buying one you can see it on the following link... along with lots of VDV of course
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=130954.240
:)
-
i've got a solitary ASU in my VDV force... its a Butlers model... if you want to have a look at the photo before buying one you can see it on the following link... along with lots of VDV of course
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=130954.240
:)
Butlers plastic models have improved in even the few years since 2021 - plus offering resin prints at a higher quality is a good option; I've bought several BPM plastic models over a few years and the striations have got less noticeable.
-
There's no need to go the On the Buses route anymore. There are more options these days, cheaper and better than Butlers, whose usual price is generally as if not more expensive than most, even without the considerable surcharge for printing in resin. Obviosuly,
BobMacK 3D produced the files for an ASU-85 along with their Cold War collection and there's a number of folk producing models from them. Worse comes to worst,you can buy the STL file and find someone local to print it for you. They do the iterations of the BMD too.
-
BobMacK 3D produced the files for an ASU-85 along with their Cold War collection and there's a number of folk producing models from them. Worse comes to worst,you can buy the STL file and find someone local to print it for you. They do the iterations of the BMD too.
Interestingly they do not do 1/50 scale over the virtual counter, it might be available for special order.
I think they were at Salute, they were bemused by my asking what scale they were (28mm was the original answer).
-
There's no need to go the On the Buses route anymore. There are more options these days, cheaper and better than Butlers, whose usual price is generally as if not more expensive than most, even without the considerable surcharge for printing in resin. Obviosuly,
BobMacK 3D produced the files for an ASU-85 along with their Cold War collection and there's a number of folk producing models from them. Worse comes to worst,you can buy the STL file and find someone local to print it for you. They do the iterations of the BMD too.
All true. I've bought cheaper prints from other sources - some on Ebay, some through other online sites. I still, however, go back to buying from BPM - the quality and consistency is something I quite like in a miniature manufacturer, rather than something that is 'more or less' of the right size, hasn't been cured properly and where I have to get other parts to finish it off.
You can be as nasty and condescending as you like, Carlos, but I'll buy from the companies I want to buy from and I'll share my opinion if I so choose. End of.
-
Nobody is suggesting otherwise. Your dosh, your choices. Merely putting other options out there.
-
You do know how that 'duel' will go, don't you? If the ASU85 fires first, the shots'll likely bounce off, then when the Kanonenjagdpanzer fires, it'll gut the ASU85 lengthwise and knock out the one behind as a bonus! lol
I love the Kanonenjagdpanzer a lot, but arguing that it can withstand the D-70 85 mm gun of the ASU-85 is a bit of a stretch. Its armor was 50 mm from the front and the D-70 could easily penetrate that. None of the tank-destroyers had advanced optics, so they'd all hunker down behind cover an wait for the other to show up at close range. The Kanonenjagdpanzer has the benefit of being vastyl more agile (bigger power pack, higher maximum speed) though. So it would likely outmaneuver the ASU-85 in a surprise engagement.
-
Ultimately, the main advantage of the ASU-85 is its airborne capability. It may be weak, but it is definitely better than nothing when it comes to supporting airborne forces fighting far behind enemy lines.
-
Ultimately, the main advantage of the ASU-85 is its airborne capability. It may be weak, but it is definitely better than nothing when it comes to supporting airborne forces fighting far behind enemy lines.
The BRDM2 atgm vehicle is airportable - perhaps more so than the ASU 85, the Nona is airportable as well. My point wasn't that 'the ASU is 'better than nothing', it was that there are better choices available in the time period. The BRDM2 is, arguably, the better (longer ranged) ambush hunter and the Nona can provide local artillery support. The ASU 85 got superseded - it happens all the time, you just adapt your tactics for the newer equipment.
-
Amen, and it's also about making way for newer technologies and fashions. Early BRDM with ATGM were really crappy in hindsight, but ATGMs were both: well received after the Yom Kippur War and clearly to be improved upon in the future. Since reactive armor wasn't yet available, HEAT warheads, which didn't rely upon velocity for kinetic penetration offered a distinct advantage of scalability and weight. It's far easier to mount a couple of ATGMs on basically any chassis and later mount bigger ones than put a new, larger caliber gun onto a dedicated chassis. And while the German Bundeswehr ultimately rearmed many of its Kanonenjagdpanzer with TOW to become the Jaguar 2 tank-destroyer, the Soviets preferred to use BRDMs and ultimately the BMD family for its VDV troops.
-
ERA was available from 1982 (West German/Israeli Blazer, Soviet Kontakt-1) following on from research conducted from the 40's and 60's in various countries. It's easier to spot which vehicles had mounting points for ERA than to work out what classified development was being done to counter ERA.