Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: Red Sveta on 07 February 2010, 09:52:58 PM
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Dobry Den
Im looking for photographs of British troops in Northern Russia if anyone knows of any.
Thanks
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There's a book The Czar's Royal Naval Squadron (I think) about Locker-Lampson and his armoured car squadron that was sent to Northern Russia and fought it's way through war and revolution to Persia. I have a copy and there are a lot of nice photos. I'm working away from home at the mo so can't grab it to confirm details. If you're interested I can supply full ISBN details etc later this week.
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Ah yes, that's it. Cracking read as you say.
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When you say "Northern Russia" do you mean the Archangel and Murmansk theatres in the Civil War? If so, Locker-Lampson is a different place and time.
Or do you mean around about the St Petersburg area in 1916 and 1917?
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If you do come across any pictures, please do post links here. I was after images of the British forces in the Intervention (1918-20) in Archangelsk/Murmansk, as I had a great uncle who was posted there with the Black Watch. But my research yeilded very little.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/yourplaceandmine/topics/war/rnacd.shtml
Google is a wonderful thing.
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15 Squadron RNAS commanded by Oliver Locker-Lampson did fight in Northern Russia as well as seeing action in ...
I think most people consider "Northern Russia" to be the taiga zone, which starts above St Petersburg in the west (but goes further south as you go east). Locker Lampson did not go up there, and neither did the No3 Armoured Car Squadron.
Given that this is not the WWI part of the site, I have to assume the original poster is asking about the Russian Civil War, and means the Murmansk and Archangel theatre. If this is true, then material about Locker-Lampson and British armoured cars is of no use to him at all.
This isn't my area of interest, but I know the BBC have some clips on-line showing Brits leaving for the North.
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Please calm down, guys.
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OK, so locker-Lampson and his AC sq were in northern Russia, but did not participate in the RCW, right?
Although apparently having participated in the Kornilow uprising?
interesting story nevertheless and anyway good for what ifs...
Anyway, @red sveta either asked about the above or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War
specifically this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Russia_Campaign
one might guess?
and also possibly this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Campaign_in_the_Baltic_1918%E2%80%931919
as well as the british participation in this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_Liberation_War
because by status quo the baltic states would belong to "Russia"
do we have it all covered now?
;) ;)
I think there is enough info, links and pictures in the wiki articles for starters
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Generally I store links to RCW stuff, but not the Interventions so much. I thought Richard Tyson's stuff had gone, but it appears it hasn't:
http://members.fortunecity.com/behindthelines/murmansk1.htm
(There's quite a cool book about flying in the North called "The Diary of a P.B.O.". It has some photos, but again all aviation stuff.)
(BTW former user, there are sites where calling the Baltics "Northern Russia" is an easy way to start a flame war. ;) )
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of course Mark, and in full right, but historically they were governed regions, not even a dutchy like Poland, and regarded as such by both sides, apart from the independence movements.
And that's what historical wargaming is about, right? ;)
South Africans would flame anyone who plays Zulu Wars where it is part of the colony or India for instance....
@Red Sveta, is that what You wanted to know?
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Thanks for the information. I have a relative who served in the Elope force around Archangel in 1919. He was posted MIA during one battle in which the British had to retreat. In many books there a pictures of British troops but always out of the line and not in campaign uniform ect. I was wanting to see a photo of the men at the front, and it would be fantastic to see a photo of men of the Yorkshire Regiment in which he served.
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I see
the story sounds very interesting.
I remember lot of pictures of US troops, but none of british ones.
No postcard collections etc available like with the Czechs?
or maybe "Polar Bear" pictures where British can be seen too?
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There seems to be quite a bit of info on the Polar Bears who seem to think they did all the fighting, but not much on the Brits. It is a strange tale with not many photos of the British units about it seems.
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not very surprising ;)
I must admit that I do not have a lot of knowledge about that specific area in RCW, most that I read summarizes "sporadic fighting"
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It's funny to read British, American and Canadian accounts of the Battle of Toulgas and the associated campaign - they all read along the lines of, "WE did all the real fighting and saved the day, those OTHER guys were just along for the ride".
Found this almost by accident. Picture is a bit grainy, but fascinating stuff regardless - film from Arkangelsk and Toulgas in 1918-19:
http://www3.nfb.ca/ww1/postwar-film.php?id=538503
http://www3.nfb.ca/ww1/postwar-film.php?id=538504
Press "PLEIN ECRAN" for full screen.
Unfortunately, I have a REALLY SLOW connection here, so can't watch the full show, but the bits I did see are very cool.
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Will Bailie thats great , thanks. Iv never seen those films before. The uniform detail was interesting and the terrible conditions they were in were plain to see. There were 2 battalions of the yorkshires there and one had a mutiny when they were orded back to the front from Archangel. All of the British troops that were there before the relief force went out were catogary B,C,D men, not fit for active service but they were thrown in just the same.
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Well there you go, that explains something at least. I read that the British up there were 'not front line troops' which seemed odd. Also my great uncle was supposed to have been in clink for 'mutiny' but I never knoew if that was just a family story.
I can see there's alot more stuff around than there was when I tried to research this several years ago... maybe time to give it a go again.
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Mutiny on active service carried the death penalty. The story goes that the King insisted that theses men not be executed and so they served prison sentences back in the UK, these were cut short and the men released early after a few months. I belive that public opinion swayed the desicion not to execute them, The campaign in Russia was very unpopular, people were tired of war, there was also a growing support for socialism following the war and the authorties were concerned not to provoke unrest.
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There seems to be quite a bit of info on the Polar Bears who seem to think they did all the fighting, but not much on the Brits. It is a strange tale with not many photos of the British units about it seems.
That's understandable, from my experience in the military especially being over there is your view of what's going on is only focused on what's going on with your unit. There is also always a little bit of friendly pissing contest between units on who is harder, or suffered more or did more then the other unit. I also think there is generally lots of interest in the polo bears in the US and the Archangel campaign. They fall under the whole US army mythos of the citizan solder, being natianl guard and all that.
Its a well known post WW1 campaign and were as are British customs have a whole mess of conflicts to choose from, from Ireland, Mesopotamia, NWF and the inter empire to reinstate authority over.
All we had were under reported "policing actions" with small units in south/central america..
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All of the British troops that were there before the relief force went out were catogary B,C,D men, not fit for active service but they were thrown in just the same.
It was a good call in many ways. The terrain and weather meant that fighting was never going to be very prolonged. The technical superiority of the Allies always gave them an advantage when defending.
To send men who had already done long service in the Western Front was seen as unfair. It was the turn of other men to "do their bit".
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Been away from this site a while, interesting stuff about peoples ideas of what is/was North Russia.
Books that may be of use that I have.
The Day we Almost Bombed Moscow, very good on all aspects.
Russian Sideshow,
Fighting the Bolsheviks,
When Hell Froze Over,
The Victors Dilemma,
Farewell to the Don,
At War With the Bolsheviks,
With Ironside in North Russia,
The Czars British Squadron,
All good books and worth getting if you can also not 100% reliable is Stamping out the Virus, which has if I remember rightly my friend Richard Tyson's article mentioned in an earlier message. Richard btw is still very much interested in the RCW period and he and I are always exchanging views and opinions on this facinating subject. one other book which I was referred to by Richard is Lincoln's book Red Victory this is a very good tome to start to try to understand the complexities of what was going on, I too endorse the recommendation.
I agree Locker Lampson never served in North Russia, I seem to recall, Romanis, Bulgaria, Ottomon Empire, Middle East theaters.
Hope any of the above is of interest if not delete it.
Paul Ireland (Budyenny)
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Apols but this is worth a bump for mine and Bolshy's games