Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Other Adventures => Topic started by: former user on 16 March 2010, 12:04:29 PM
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Hello dear collegues
so, Red Orc, Argsilverson an myself (I hope I did not miss anyone) so far are about to start a journey to creating Ruritania (the LAF version)
This thread will be updated to contain all information about this country we will be gathering and inventing.
Everyone is invited to contribute suggestions and inspirations, however "official" background info will be subject to authorisation by @Red Orc (unless I am told otherwise, so please keep eyes open for changes) and active contributors.
Since we are not admins, I might ask You to alter or delete a post when I have extracted the authorized facts - this all to keep the thread supple :D.
So far, Ruritania is a middle european country (exemplified by the novel "the prisoner of Zenda" etc), German speaking, it's eastern province being Molwania, multiethnic.
So far, the 19th C and 20th C will be covered, with options for earlier times, provided it fits with the history we create and someone nurses the facts. Background is definetely Steampunk, alternate history and Pulp.
The country at the turn of the century has an army, a railway and will soon employ a riverine Navy and an Airfleet.
so, Go :D
I will update when I have time
former user
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Between the wars, Ruritanian Generals imported small numbers of tanks from France and Britian. They also manufactured copies of the Pzkw I. The generals had political ambitions.
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Part of my motivation for this is to do 'A Very Ruritanian Civil War' which will cover the late '30s. It's an excuse to mix some late Victorian minis - as 'Royal Guards' and whatnot - with RCW/WWII Partizans, WWII Germans etc.
Looking at the real Balkan and Central European nations of the time, there were several where different factions of the ruling class were allying themselves with different powers. Germany, Italy, France, Britain and Russia were all meddling in that area (as in Spain and other places) so I think the idea that different groups in the military and administration would be supporting (and supported by) different Powers is sound.
I'm not sure whether it's easier to 'start at the beginning' with say battles between the Turks and the Empire in 1500, and work forwards from there, or just to make up stuff in whatever particular periods we are interested in, and fit it together afterwards. I favour the latter, I think. It will be more confusing, but then history is.
I have an idea that we could all pick a time period and be an 'elder statesman' guiding the destiny of this small nation; but that might not actually work. My idea is that we pick let's say a 40-year block of time and 'rule' the country. The following are for example purposes only, just to illustrate the idea. Let me know what you think.
Let's say, I pick 1861-1900. In that time Ruritania starts to develop its industry, supports Germany against Austria, tries and fails to capitalise on the retreat of the Ottoman Empire, opposes Italian unification, invades Grand Fenwick, and ends by concluding an alliance with Russia.
Then someone else picks 1901-1940, when Ruritania begins to lose out to its neighbours in the arms race, develops a strong socialist movement that opposes WWI, but eventually joins in 1916 against the Central Powers, is occupied by Austria-Hungary, has a revolution when the King is toppled (is this still Rudolf? Perhaps...) then a military dictatorship; the son of the King is invited back in the 1920s; but then after the rise of Nazi Germany there is an increasing fascist movement...
It might be fun to try; what do you think guys?
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Between the Wars? Ruritanian generals?
Although the Prisoner of Zenda was written in 1894, surely Ruritania is a fictional construct set in a pre-1871 world, before German unification and the creation of the German Empire in 1871? After 1871 there were no fully autonomous German Kingdoms with their own armies, were there?
I appreciate it's an imaginary country which you intend to use for gaming in an imaginary, VSF-style milieu - but what you're really saying is that you're going to invent a whole new world Ruritania, of your own imagining - not the Ruritania of Hope's novels.
In which case, why call it Ruritania at all? Why not just invent your own imaginary German state.
Sorry to be anal, but it would be like taking Tolkien's brilliant imaginary creation of Middle Earth, and then saying 'ah yes, well - that may be the original fictional Middle Earth, but our fictional Middle Earth is different... We have a WW1 era Middle Earth...'
I appreciate the human imagination is limitless, but this 'riff on a theme of...' feels a bit of a metaphysical conudrum... ::) ;)
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Surely as long as the period covered by Hope's novels is faithfully recreated and anything after or before is approached in the same spirit it would still be the same place?
Likewise I'm a fairly hardcore Tolkien fan but I don't object to the idea of a WW1 era Middle-Earth provided it is done with a great deal of forethought and sticks to the background as much as possible - having said which I don't think there would be much scope as the idea with LoTR is that after the fall of Sauron evil is banished from the world and races other than humans dwindle away. Admittedly there would be the evil that nations of men commit upon each other, perhaps after the rule of Aragorn's son.
Its not really any different to Star Wars or Star Trek fan fiction, which is widely popular.
On the subject of what Red was talking about, I would be quite interested in contributing to the 1740's-1770's period.
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Ok here I am.
I agree, but I believe that, due to lack of time and, maybe, of models let's concentrate on one period, establish the background etc etc.
I suggest as the first part the time span 1861-1900 and try to model or small nation, establish boundaries, neigbours etc.
First some question:
1 .- Shall we stick on the offical canon text of Anthony Hope's prisoner of Zenda, or not.
If yes I doubt that we can portray the WW2. Acc. to Hope Ruritania is a german speaking country, totally conservative with high degree of absolutism and catholic. This, has limitations. I doubt whether there should be any partizans and I am afraid that Ruritania will have to follow the terms imposed by the german speaking countries, like Germany and Austria.
The whole story is between the royal family and all commoners are non-existent or absolutely non playing characters.
2.- At least initially the characters that will apear are only those A.S.Hope created? i.e. Rudolph V, Rassendyll, Sapt, Fritz, Princess Flavia from one side (plus the Marshall and cardinal) and "Black" Michael, the Six (incl. Rupert of Hentzau), few servants, a couple of ladies (Helga -Fritz's wife to be and Antoinette de Maubent - trapped between her love for Duke Michael and R.v.H.), the odd station master and doctor.
Os should invent others and in which extend. (I have some ideas on the subject) .
If the answer is yes, then we need to make an introductive chapter , collecting whatever is available now in links and photos, and start collecting contributions.
For easy following matter I suggest:
.- one thread with all contributions
and
.- one thread monitored by Red Orc where the "officially approved" story chapters will appear.
In the meantime I have seen the message by Spong. Quite an interest thought, but I do not like the idea of "fantasy" or better "Tolkien fantasy" to be incorporated.
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I think you might have picked up the wrong end of the stick about Tolkien - I think, Captain Blood was saying that re-inventing Ruritania would be like re-inventing Middle Earth. Having said that, I've seen versions of Middle Earth where a 20th Century political geography was projected into Tolkien's geography and history, and they've been very interesting I thought.
If we take ME as an example, the 'trick' I suppose is to decide that it corresponds to phase in the 'real' Earth's history (for instance, Aragorn = Augustus) and then project from there. 2000 years after Aragorn's coronation, what does Middle Earth look like? Well, 2000 years from Augustus's assumption of Imperium, what did Europe look like? Or perhaps 'The War of the Ring' corresponds to the post-Roman or medieval period and Aragorn is Charlemagne, or King Arthur, or Frederick Barborossa... and then 'history' unfolds from that point. In whichever case, the 'invented history' of the setting supplies the starting conditions for future development.
So, the idea is to project the 'history' of Ruritania into the future (the future from the point of view of 1894). If Ruritania had existed, what would the events of the 20th century have done to it? And, as Hope never did this, what are the events that lead up to the state of affairs described in the Prisoner of Zenda? Was Ruritania occupied by the Turks? Conquered by Austria? Invaded by Napoleon? Did it have an '1848'?
I don't agree by the way that the biggest problem is German Unification. My understanding is that the novel is 'current' ie set in 1894. I could be wrong about that, it's years since I read it but I am trying to make up for that.
But even if that's the case, that it's set pre-1871, VSF already provides a situation where 'Prussians' exist in a post-1871 world. If Hope's world (with Ruritania in it) doesn't have an 1871, there's no reason why ours (with Ruritania in it) should either.
So in short, we're not inventing a whole new Ruritania. We're not necessarily going to stick completely to Hope's Ruritania, because there have been other re-imaginings which have played about with different aspects - notably the film version where Ruritania seems to be in the Balkans rather than near Prague. But hopefully we're not going to do too much violence to Hope's Ruritania either.
There are a lot of other things to say about this, but I'll leave it for now to let other people have their say.
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Yes for the record I was not suggesting adding fantasy or Tolkienesque elements to VSF or Ruritania :).
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Yes, I think we're just being confusing.
All references to Middle Earth are merely for the purposes of demonstrating a point, not because we want to tie Middle Earth in with Ruritania... though if we did, I say it should be in Khand! ;)
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Red Orc and Sponge:
Thanks for the clarification, it was well understood, sorry if my earlier message was not clear.But I just shared with you my thoughts, since I just do not like to enter in the system the element of hardcore fantasy.
So, what I have understood is that year "zero" is 1894 (or so, I, also, do not remember the exact year, but this is of no importance) and if I am correct we need to invent the whole history before and, mainly, after this year.
But as red Orc states:
There are a lot of other things to say about this, but I'll leave it for now to let other people have their say.
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Yes: whatever the year is in 'Prisoner of Zenda' is our baseline for moving forward into the 20th, or backward towards the 18th, centuries. I thought it was 1894, but I haven't read 'Rupert of Hentzau'. According to the 'Ruritanian Resitance' website at http://www.silverwhistle.co.uk/ruritania/index.html there are good reasons for assuming that the date of 'Prisoner...' is around 1870.
Either way, we can begin to work out some elements of the history of Ruritania, and sketch out how it could fit alongside the 'real' history of Europe I think.
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So, let's start with basics:
1.- Geography &
2.- Does anyone know of a good site with european history chronology? in table format?
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Well according to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruritania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruritania)
"Geographically, it is usually considered to be located between Saxony and Bohemia; the author indicates that the capital city, Strelsau, lies on the railway line between Dresden and Prague."
Meanwhile, this site: http://uzar.wordpress.com/2007/02/18/adventures-in-ruritania/ (http://uzar.wordpress.com/2007/02/18/adventures-in-ruritania/)
Proposes two possible locations illustrated by this map:
(http://uzar.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/europe.jpg)
On the basis of what the Wiki article says I would suggest perhaps the West outline to be more likely, though perhaps not actually incorporating Prague or Dresden as the picture shows.
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Red Orc, I like the elder states man idea. it should really help to keep things managble (especially in light of the massive interest level there is in this project). Might I suggest that you reduce the time from 40 to 20 years for the more modern era's, say 1890's-1910, 1910-1930 etc. as there was so much invention, colonization, political actions going on. For earlier eras when change was not so rapid keep the 40 year range. This would also tie in to the current lay out of Lead Forum, VSF, WWI, BOB & the like.
As to where Ruritania is, I think she needs to have at least one border with Germany/Prussia and hopefully one with Russia for the story line to give lots of possible plt twists. Personally I have always thought of her to be one of the Bavarian/Wurrtemberg type German states that remained independent after the German Empire was formed (another plot twist that can be exploited as the Empire tries to bring a wayward child to heel and other major powers become involved to prevent this).
Any way thanks for a creating such a fun idea.
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oh man---
here my thoughts
- LAF Ruritania is based on the novel Ruritania, not the same
the name is catchy and also stands for other things - read the wiki article
that's all
- The pre 1871 novel Ruritania is our starting point - we should agree on the history and the future (there are a lot of ideas in the mock Molwania, but I think the issue is that it follows the general history line)
- provided someone wants to game in earlier or later Ruritania, no problem as long as they elaborate on the rough storyline and have the miniatures
- active contributors should be the ones who take care of the periods and have the miniatures to game it
- basically it is about being actively involved in the creation, so whoever contributes to a period should be responsible and take care of it
- not too much talk and pros and contras, but contributions and suggestions that are chosen by who manages the period and made " official"
- I must admit that I am a bit disappointed that already arguments are stated why it couldn't work...
this is the way to kill the baby in the cradle - think positive
- about the map
maybe we should choose a period map of the final 19th C. anyone can provide one?
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Location, Location, Location always the most important aspect. Here is a map of most of the pre-empire German states. Might I suggest either the Thuringen States area (expanding them a little through Saxony so they are not surrounded by the future empire) or the area of the Grand Dutchy of Baden. Both would give lots are room for story lines for wars, intrigue and pulp like adventures. [/img](http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae36/ushistoryprof/Worldhistoryprof%20miniatures/1870cGRMbfrunion.jpg) You could also take the part of Hanover between Oldenberg and the Netherlands if you wanted to have a sea outlet.
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All references to Middle Earth are merely for the purposes of demonstrating a point, not because we want to tie Middle Earth in with Ruritania... though if we did, I say it should be in Khand! ;)
lol
According to the 'Ruritanian Resitance' website at http://www.silverwhistle.co.uk/ruritania/index.html there are good reasons for assuming that the date of 'Prisoner...' is around 1870.
Yeah, because as I said, all the little 'Ruritanian' German statelets and principalities on which the fictional Ruritania was modelled, were swallowed up in the German Empire in 1871.
We're not necessarily going to stick completely to Hope's Ruritania, because there have been other re-imaginings which have played about with different aspects.
Honestly, if you haven't read it, get hold of 'Royal Flash' - the alternative Ruritania (and as the author's conceit has it - the 'real' Ruritania)
(http://uzar.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/europe.jpg)
Those are way too big - Ruritania is a 'pocket principality' (like present-day Liechtenstein), not a whole country. Something on the scale of Mecklenburg-Strelitz is much more like it, and even that's probably too big.
- read the wiki article
that's all
Never mind the Wiki article - read the books! They are the one and only primary source.
- I must admit that I am a bit disappointed that already arguments are stated why it couldn't work...
this is the way to kill the baby in the cradle - think positive
Listen Mush - you are about to start playing fast and loose with one of my favourite books. Before I have to endure months of made-up waffle about my cherished land of Ruritania, I'd like to be clear on the ground rules.
Are you chaps all going to be rattling on about some Ruritania derived from the 'real' Ruritania of Hope's novels - or is that just a jumping off point for a completely made-up universe of your own invention?
If it's the latter - fine: you're just nicking the name and premise of a fairytale central European principality to create your own world. I can rest easy. (You could just go with Vulgaria... Same kind of thing, but a lot less defined ;))
But if it's Ruritania proper, I shall be watching... o_o
;)
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Yeah, because as I said, all the little 'Ruritanian' German statelets and principalities on which the fictional Ruritania was modelled, were swallowed up in the German Empire in 1871.
I was thinking about this and imagined that perhaps during the 18th century Ruritania could have sided with Prussia and hence when the German Empire formed may have maintained autonomy through having good diplomatic relations - just an idea.
Those are way too big - Ruritania is a 'pocket principality' (like present-day Liechtenstein), not a whole country. Something on the scale of Mecklenburg-Strelitz is much more like it, and even that's probably too big.
I quite agree, as I said it probably shouldn't contain Prague or Dresden as that picture does either, it was merely to serve as an illustration. Here is perhaps a better idea of location and size I quickly threw together:
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a209/Spongthe1st/map1.jpg)
Listen Mush - you are about to start playing fast and loose with one of my favourite books. Before I have to endure months of made-up waffle about my cherished land of Ruritania, I'd like to be clear on the ground rules.
Are you chaps all going to be rattling on about some Ruritania derived from the 'real' Ruritania of Hope's novels - or is that just a jumping off point for a completely made-up universe of your own invention?
If it's the latter - fine: you're just nicking the name and premise of a fairytale central European principality to create your own world. I can rest easy. (You could just go with Vulgaria... Same kind of thing, but a lot less defined ;))
But if it's Ruritania proper, I shall be watching... o_o
;)
Because this project came largely from Red Orc's ideas (and subsequently he gets to approve or disprove further ideas) and he seems to be a fan of the original books I can't really see this particular acorn falling too far from the tree. I for one am very keen on imaginatively extrapolating on existing history or fiction while remaining as closely to canon as possible. In my opinion it is worth sticking with things that are logical and make sense as it is more realistic and makes it easier to suspend disbelief, which results in greater immersion and a richer experience.
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Hang on, I know former user said I should get final say, but honestly I was going to object to that. I'm not the God of All Things Ruritanian; I enjoyed the book years ago and am making efforts to re-acquaint myself with it, that's it so far. I'm happy for this to proceed somewhat carefully because I'm keen to keep everything workable from Hope's Ruritania.
Here's the way I see it: we have two choices, I think.
1 - keep Ruritania tiny and ethnically German (even Saxony that Hope's Ruritania seems to be based on wasn't purely German however), say it was swallowed up in 1871 and is a small kingdom in Germany, and sacrifice the idea of doing anything post-1918, except maybe having a Ruritanian Railway that provides rolling stock for BoB/RCW games, and occassional references in Pulp games;
2 - have a 'Greater Ruritania' that is somewhat bigger, possibly to the extent of being a '3rd' German power (besides Austria and Prussia) and posit the idea that between 1871-1939 there is another multi-ethnic Central European Empire that perhaps includes bits of Saxony, Bohemia, Poland, Hungary and Yugoslavia (or something like that).
EDIT:
There may be a third choice that could potentially solve one problem. It's about 100km (60miles) from Dresden to Prague - too small for a reasonable 'kingdom' to fit in there but certainly enough space for something bigger than Lichtenstein (24km long). If we assume Ruritania includes some land on both the current German and Czech sides of the border, we than have to posit that Ruritania isn't pure German, but as the Czech area was part of the Sudetenland anyway, what we have is a bit of Saxony that is mostly German with some Sorbs, and part of Bohemia that is mixed Czech/German. That doesn't seem a vast problem to me.
I'd then suggest the two north-western-most districts of the Czech Republic (around Ústí nad Labem, and Karlovy Vary) and the bits on the German side between the current border and Pirna, Dippolswolde and Marienburg, more or less. That would give us a stae about 40km wide and nearly 100 long.
Now, there's no actual reason that would be necessarily part of Germany. It might have gone to Austria-Hungary and split off again after WWI. That might give us a justification for an independent German state in the Interwar period.
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Never mind the Wiki article - read the books! They are the one and only primary source.
the part of the WIKI article I was referring too is this:
"Ruritania" is used as the placeholder name of a hypothetical country to make points in academic discussions, much as Alice and Bob are in logic and computing.
Jurists specialising in international law use it and other fictional countries when describing a hypothetical case illustrating some legal point. Australian foreign minister Alexander Downer cited Ruritania as a fictional enemy when illustrating a security treaty between Australia and Indonesia signed on 8 November 2006: "We do not need to have a security agreement with Indonesia so both of us will fight off the Ruritanians. That's not what the relationship is about," he said. "It is all about working together on the threats that we have to deal with, which are different types of threats".
Walter Lippmann used the word to describe the stereotype that characterized the vision of international relations during and after the First World War. Ruritania is used as the name of a highly nationalist country in Equatorial Cyberspace [1], a fictional continent used for a peacebuilding and conflict resolution simulation at McGill University.
Ruritania has also been used to describe the stereotypical development of nationalism in 19th century Eastern Europe, by Ernest Gellner in Nations and Nationalism, in a pastiche of the historical narratives of nationalist movements among Poles, Czechs, Serbians, Romanians, etc. In this story, peasant Ruritanians living in the "Empire of Megalomania" developed national consciousness through the elaboration of a Ruritanian high culture by a small group of intellectuals responding to industrialization and labor migration.
etc
as far as I understood it, the fictional literature is meant to be an inspiration
apart from that, Ruritania also appeared in other fictional works - this is called hommage or intertextuality....
My suggestion that @Red Orc should authorise is that it is his idea and project.
This does not exclude that later on other active contributors can form a discussion board on the official background - as far as they actually play in it
This is meant to reduce useless discussion and to get it started off, not to exclude others
I am not exactly sure what "Mush" means, nor the reason I am adressed in this way.....
however CB, I think You can sleep easy with Your concerns (see above)
otherwise You can also join in constructively if You intend to take part in the project
In general I tend to get tired if someone (like Red Orc in this case) has a good idea and others start to crossfire about why this and that can't work WITHOUT offering an alternative (this is destructive IMHO)
choosing a fictional country usually means that people do not want to game historically - then sticking to a "Holy Bible" that precisely outlines how things should be makes the whole concept a bit absurd methinks....
Anyway, thanks for pointing out the websites about Ruritania, I will check them.
OK, now my thoughts to the location:
I understand that Ruritania is meant to be german speaking - well there are some regions with german speaking population that were not sucked up into the Empire. Leaving aside Netherlands and parts of Belgium (not actually German but very closely related linguistically speaking), there is Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, parts of Moravia, Bohemia and Poland, Transsylvania and also maybe Galicia if one wants to count Yiddish to the german languages.
It is clear that the historical counterparts did not necessarily have German rulers, but I think this is not the point here.
The main sources of influence at the considered time and general location would have been Germany, Austria and Russia - I think this is the interesting point here. Also the ethnical mix.
So the location chosen would be somewhere around the northern Carpathians and Tatra, if my geography is not too obsolete.
The historical setting is one where ethnic regions struggle to establish a nation, and it was not uncommon for kings to be imported (like Romania e.g.).
IMHO the suggestion roughly around Czechia and Slovakia, and more eastwards for Molwania ;) should be favoured.
If I could please have a coloured map of political Europe around 1870 I shall make a few illustrated suggestions.
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Some I found, but I do not know whether it helps or not:
Inventing Ruritania:
http://yalepress.yale.edu/YupBooks/book.asp?isbn=0300073127
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this book looks interesting
unfortunately oop
I shall check the library
interesting enough, Ruritania is suddenly eastern Europe....
interesting enough, Ruritania is suddenly eastern Europe....
here a map of central european languages 1910
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And some other vision of Ruritania:
http://vsf15mm.blogspot.com/2008/06/ruritania.html
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this is an interesting map
but it does not appear to contain anything at all from the books?
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this is an interesting map
but it does not appear to contain anything at all from the books?
Probably the didn't bother to adapt the names!
wait a minute: I think I have found a large river but where is the lake????
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OK, so here my rough suggestions, based on maps 1871 and 1923
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I like the maps there former user, perhaps they're best for the possible 'East Ruritania'?
There is an interesting discussion here (link) (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=16699.0) that discusses the possibility of the failure of the German Empire to come together as a VSF alternative history, allowing for an independent Ruritania state post 1871. This would leave us potentially with a very different world up to WWI (and obviously we'd have to drag things back on track for viable Interwar/Pulp action).
Or, how about the idea of there being two seperate Ruritanias? One, 'Western' Ruritania, is the Sudentenland/Saxon setting of 'Prisoner...' and the other Hope novels; the second, 'Eastern Ruritania' (also known as Molvania) is not connected, but perhaps was also ruled by the House of Elphberg at some point, and after WWI the eastern portion of the Elphberg lands are the 'East Ruritania' of former user's railway (located somewhere around Galicia I guess, perhaps as in former user's map above)?
There's also this wiki page on 'Ruritanian Romances' (link) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruritanian_romance) that has some other interesting bits that it may be possible to use (though the chances are that every one we attempt to use will compund these very difficulties!) - war and annexation of Grand Fenwick in 1907(?) for instance.
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Two is just fine, but unconnected?
then it should be Ruritania and Molvania
but where is Ruritania then?
I think a combined approach would be better, like in the case of Czechoslovakia where different ethnic regions are sometimes unified and sometimes not, according to the general history.
I think the only kick we have to give to the real history is that Napoleon III regognized the importance of oil fired engines (which is not far from the truth), this led to a draw in the war of 1871 and a later and more gradual unification of the German Empire.
this could have led to a weakened Austro-Hungaria and a pre WWI seccession, with WWI being fought on a different scale in the West and also a bit later (trench war is boring anyway ;))
the only issue is then - do we want WWII with Nazis or not? then the German Empire would have to loose WWII
The following Soviet supremacy is a given anyway
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I don't think having East and West Ruritania unconnected is that much of a problem, is it? Brandenberg and East Prussia were disconnected, Upper and Lower Saxony were unconnected (and if I remember correctly, in this case too the name comes from the same ruling house ruling both), Lichtenstein is named for a castle in Hungary (?) that the ruling family used to own, but isn't connected geographically... is it impossible that an area known to the local (mostly Slavic) inhabitants as 'Molvania' is known to its German-speaking minority as 'East Ruritania' in recognition that at one time (before Napoleon's invasion in 1806 perhaps?) the same House of Elphberg ruled both?
In the Middle Ages there were lots of states that had stupid borders, with bits of other states inside them, or bits of themselves on the other side of different states; I suspect precisely because modern nations began to form from scattered domains of feudal lords - or more correctly families. What if the 'Elphberg patrimony' was a similar case?
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maybe You should specify "unconnected"
different states?
common borders?
when unified (common ruler), when not?
of course they are basically different with language and all, but hungaria and austria?
how about the alternate timeline?
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former user, "mush" is one of many Romani words that have become English slang (like cushty, chav, pal, gadgie, etc.).
It means "friend."
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Just to give a possible bridge between the book and 20th century - take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Republic_of_Schwarzenberg
The story of the free state Schwarzenberg, part of Saxony on the Czech border, was immortalized by Stefan Heyms novel.
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I am not exactly sure what "Mush" means, nor the reason I am adressed in this way.....
It's an old Anglo-Saxon term used to indicate affectionate irritation.
You can also join in constructively if You intend to take part in the project
Thank you :)
This is meant to reduce useless discussion
A good aim. Too much useless discussion creeping into the LAF of late.
In general I tend to get tired if someone (like Red Orc in this case) has a good idea and others start to crossfire about why this and that can't work WITHOUT offering an alternative (this is destructive IMHO)
Yes, that can be rather tiring. I'd better butt out. You chaps enjoy your conversation.
Will you be producing miniatures, terrain and models for this setting, former user - or is it purely a theoretical exercise? (That would be a bit absurd methinks).
Butting out now.
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maybe You should specify "unconnected"
different states?
common borders?
when unified (common ruler), when not?...
Maybe what I meant wasn't very clear. I meant to suggest that they were the eastern and western territories of the House of Elphburg. They would be geographically distinct, one based around the Duchy of Streslau, between Prague and Dresden, and one based around the ... what, Voivodinate (?) of Molvania, in the vicinity of Transylvania somewhere.
This situation could have arisen because the royal house inherited or was granted two different lands (in the same way that the House of Hannover ruled in both Germany and Britain, or the Danish royal family was established in Greeece), or it could be that at one time the Elphbergs (or whoever came before them) controlled all the land in between (Bohemia, Slovakia, and Hungary too).
Perhaps the Elphbergs are not so German after all; perhaps 800 years ago they were Hungarian or Slavic, for instance, and the two surviving bits of 'Ruritania' were part of the territory of the Grand Warlord Roradan who was given the lordship of Elphberg (wherever we may decide that is) by the Emperor, and subsequently the lordship was mostly lost except the bit nerar Streslau and the region of Molvania, but in those places people still remember that family of Elphberg rule the lands of the patrimony of Roradan (which is rendered 'Ruritania' in Church Latin)...
...of course they are basically different with language and all, but hungaria and austria?
how about the alternate timeline?
The alternate timeline from whenever we want to start it is very flexible. I'm in favour of roughing out the details at least from about the Turkish invasion of central Europe. I'm not sure going back any further is useful, but if someone wants to elaborate a history of Ruritania in the Middle Ages I won't try to stop them. But for the purposes we're after (VSF through to Interwar years if we can do it) at least having a background that goes back to the Napoleonic reorganisations of Europe seems necessary, and Spong seems keen to go back into the 18th century.
In general I think we should stick to the 'givens' of European history, but where we can do it I think it it would be fun if we can find a way of including other fictional European countries (eg Grand Fenwick, Graustark, and Molvania) as enemies, allies and territories (or all of them) of Ruritania. This may involve some juggling, but I think we can do it. I'm certainly game for trying.
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it sounds good, but I would favour a common border, maybe around a lake?
Including Grand Fenwick is of course a must.
So what we have for now is the House of Elphberg, that ruled Ruritania and freed Molvania from the Turkish rule... ??
And the VRCW is about Molvania becoming nationalist/communist etc, with involvement in the RCW?
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it sounds good, but I would favour a common border, maybe around a lake?
Including Grand Fenwick is of course a must.
Fenwick? lol
(http://www.new-video.de/co/mausbrue.m.jpg)
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Yes, exactly that one :D
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I seem to recall reading somewhere that Ruritania had actually annexed Grand Fenwick... :?
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Aetheric Mechanics, by Warren Ellis. There's a thread about it here (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=17026.0), which bizarrely doesn't mention the occupation of Grand Fenwick; but by implication it's after the events of 'Prisoner...' and 'Rupert of Hentzau' and is has been reversed by the time of 'The Mouse that Roared'. So maybe early 20th century?
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no problem with that
Molvania and Great Fenwick joined Great Ruritania in the late 19th C*, but after the Ruritanian Civil War all was reversed, and then Great Fenwick tried to get occupied by USA after WWII, while Molvania joined the Nazis and were occupied by the Soviets in turn. Many families were reunited only in 1989 after the Molvanian Segregation Wall all broke down, but not because of politics, but because the Molvanians had built it of mud bricks ;)
or something like that...
* actually, the United Principate of Molvania was ruled by a Molvanian prince before, but the family died out, and after a short and bloody reign of a mad sorceror the Molvanian nobility asked to be ruled by Rudolph of Ruritania, and gladly sealed the oath of loyalty in the traditional Molvanian way of urinating on the carpet.
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some more ideas here:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=194754
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Being new here please be kind. :)
But I seem to remember the George MacDonald Fraser novel "Royal Flash" being based around the "Prisoner of Zenda" Flashman even claims that he told the story of his exploits to the author and thats where he got the idea. There might be some usable info located in there.
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THX for the ideas
quite useful links Argyris
also from draxx66
don't know the book, allthough there is some fiction that pays hommage to the original
wonder how close it is
anyone read it?
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Captain Blood has.
In other news, I thought I'd post a work-in-progress pic of my 'Ruritanians' so far - ignore the cowboy, he's probably going to be an adventuring balloonist at some point, but the others are the West Wind Tsarina, Tsar and a Zendarian Vampire Slayer. The Tsar and the Vampire Slayer are 'supposed' to be the King of Ruritania (probably the one after Rudolf V, or even the one after that, I've called him Albert II for the time being) and Colonel von Kartoffeln-ohne-Umlaut, an officer. They're both supposed to be wearing mustard jackets in line with my earlier plan to have the Ruritanian infantry in mustard jackets...
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm219/redorc01/dadsfigz.jpg)
It strikes me that the Tsarina could in fact be the Grand Duchess of Fenwick. Or Molvania. Or somewhere...
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Well, I could have just edited this onto the end of my last post but where's the fun in that?
First - I still haven't been able to get 'Prisoner of Zenda' from my library. Apprently it's there, and the library will be open tomorrow, but what with the Easter holidays and the stupid inter-library request system it's taken them weeks to actually get a copy.
Second - I have managed to get a copy of 'Aetheric Mechanics' by Warren Ellis though - link to the discussion started by JollyBob a couple of weeks ago (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=17026.0) - but there isn't much info about Ruritania to combine with what we already have. I'll sumarise that here:
1 - Britain is at war with Ruritania, and has been for at least 2 years (the book is set in 1907); there is a front in France; Britain is losing the war.
2 - Ruritania has huge walking battle-platforms, perhaps 60 feet or more high, bristling with large-bore guns; it also has many monoplanes (whether these are crewed or not is difficult to tell, we never see any Ruritanians).
3 - Ruritania has annexed Grand Fenwick, seemingly recently (since the war began perhaps); they have ships capable of inter-planetary flight that are attempting to break a Britsh blockade.
4 - the Ruritanian warmachines appear to have two devices on them; one is a flag, which seems to be divided into two halves by a narrow vertical bar, then the right-hand section is further divided by a horizontal bar. In the left half is a device that looks like a dragon or serpent swallowing a person, surmounted by three 'balls' and a crown. The right sections seem to be darker in colour than the right (suggest green and red?). The other device is a dark-coloured St Olaf's Cross.
5 - 'Prisoner of Zenda' is mentioned; we can assume that it's part of Ruritania's history.
That's about it, I think, the sum total of the info to be gleaned on Ruritania from the book. What do you supppose we should make of it?
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sounds interesting
However, there is a major alteration to the OT (original timeline)
What the hell happened with Germany? are they waging war through Germany?
Otherwise, the story sounds like an early WWI - Britain vs Germany escalation with Ruritania taking the place for Britain.
Spaceflight - well, why not ;)
The technology jump however appears a bit harsh to me...
let's extrapolate a bit -
1907, The Russian Empire is at the brink of Revolution, there is a major breakdown (Maybe Russia has conquered Prussian Germany and Ruritania has expanded into parts of it?) and the Revolution spills over into Great Ruritania, thus effectively ending the War with Britain by request of a ceasefire.
And there we have it: The Ruritanian Civil War, a bit early, but it could continue for longer, with Bolshevik attempts at carrying Communism over.
How about that?
oh yes, and You did not mention the time plot - leave it out?
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Well, my reading is that in this timeline Ruritania 'is' Germany.
Unfortunately the book is only about 40 pages long, and most of that is taken up with a Sherlock Holmes-style detective plot; the war is merely the background to that, and explanations of events of the war only cover about 6 pages at most (and I think five frames of actual depictions of Ruritanian war-machines). But yes, it appears to me that in this timeline Ruritania has probably unified Germany; Grand Fenwick might then stand for Austria.
Oddly, Einstein is mentioned as a 'young German natural philosopher' - that might imply that there is a 'Germany' seperate to 'Ruritania', or it may be that 'Ruritania' is the state, and 'German' is a linguistic or ethnic description.
If we want to run with the idea of incorporating this timeline we'll have to abandon the idea of running anything like a 'real' 20th century, I think. It's easy to add it to a VSF world - a quick way to do it would be something like 'French superiority with Vernesque devices leads to Prussian defeat and humiliation in 1871; Ruritania (Saxony-plus-Western Bohemia) unites German kindoms (and part of Austria-Hungary?) into (Grand) Ruritania (includes Molvania, but not Grand Fenwick). Arms race ensues between France, Britain, Ruritania, (Russia and Ottomans too?); war breaks out in 1905. Whether this war then leads to revolution as WWI did, yeah, why not?
But; it's a big departure from 'real' history. I think we should hold off from committing ourselves at present.
Really it's the heraldry I'm interested in at present! lol
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the idea sounds good
yes, there should be some "Prussian Germany" in this timeline
this way, we could merge WWI, Interwar and WWII into a great european civil war
However, You are right, a bit of contemplation can't be wrong ;)
and miniatures painting from my side
I've peeked into the 2 movies, and apart from both being almost identical to the shot, everything needed is there.
Noticed the camera sliding towards Hungaria and Romania in the opening of the 1937 Version?...
Molvania should stand for the unimportant eastern province and not gain too much importance, like Galicia for Austro-Hungaria. As to the dual Monarchy itself, I don't think it equals Grand Fenwick. Maybe both countries split up and Austria became part of Great Ruritania, without the German unification.
In this version, Ruritania can't be a small country anymore, with Britain at the brink of defeat and some "French Front" mentioned.
I also think that the SF element should be toned down a bit. Aether Mechanics is nice, but no need for TV and monoplanes actually. These would look a bit weird with Zeppelins, interwar tanks etc.
If air travel goes along Zeppelin lines, planes should not develop that quickly.
My thoughts...
Here to my miniature plans
passenger train (Molvanian railways)
Zeppelin airforce, a few biplanes, small fleet
and a steel bridge, sponsered by King Rudolph to connect Ruritania to it's new province, decorated with statues of the king's own Molvanian Hussar Regiment, a newly founded Regiment to serve the king ;)
Yes, and the units I mentioned
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...
.... It's about 100km (60miles) from Dresden to Prague - too small for a reasonable 'kingdom' to fit in there but certainly enough space for something bigger than Lichtenstein (24km long). If we assume Ruritania includes some land on both the current German and Czech sides of the border, we than have to posit that Ruritania isn't pure German, but as the Czech area was part of the Sudetenland anyway, what we have is a bit of Saxony that is mostly German with some Sorbs, and part of Bohemia that is mixed Czech/German. That doesn't seem a vast problem to me.
I'd then suggest the two north-western-most districts of the Czech Republic (around Ústí nad Labem, and Karlovy Vary) and the bits on the German side between the current border and Pirna, Dippolswolde and Marienburg, more or less. That would give us a stae about 40km wide and nearly 100 long...
Re-reading 'Prisoner...' I was struck by a passage (that I now can't find of course) that says that it's 40 miles from Zenda to Streslau and Zenda is 10 miles from the frontier. Taken at face value, that makes Streslau more than 50 miles from Dresden (because Dresden is still in Saxony, we presume). That means Streslau almost certainly isn't in the Sudetenland (unless you travel south-east from Dresden to Zenda then north-east or south-west, parallel with the German-Czech border). Nor can it realistically be 'between' Desden and Prague. I'd hazard that Streslau is Prague.
So, it seems impossible to follow all of Hope's geo-political descriptions. If Ruritania is a German-speaking country bordering Saxony, not far from Dresden, then it seems it is an ethnically-cleansed German Bohemia.
This might mean the existence of Molvania is easier to explain - it's Slovakia under this interpretation; but that's fairly unsatisfactory I think as a general way of takling the problem of where Ruritania is.
Any thoughts, alternative interpretations etc?
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hmm....
pre 1870 Ruritania appears to be very small.
I wouldn't bother too much with the historical accuracy, we can simply stuff it somewehere into Bohemia.
The fact that the official language is german doesn't mean there aren't slavic people around.
Then, the ruling house would happen to inherit the throne of a southern german country or Austria (Maybe after the death of Rudolf?), thus making it possible to beat Prussia and prevent the formation of the german empire in 1871. How about that?
Molvania is not that important - I place it somewhere between Poland, Romania, Hungaria and Slovakia and multiethnical.
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Thanks for pointing me to this thread Redorc!
Here are my contributions for a 15mm game:
Axis and Allies Miniatures Cavalry
Mongolian
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/702100
Makes good Tartars and Magyars. You need to spruce up the paint job, but I added trimmed robes and colorful ruffs and hoods to mine, and they look quite nice.
Greek
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/inc/sdetail/702096
The helmet is very late 19th, early 20th century style Ottoman, so they can be used nicely for troops of a similar Turkish nation, if any such borders Ruritania.
Polish
http://www.coolstuffinc.com/images/Products/Misc%20Art/Axis%20and%20Allies%20Miniatures/aa2-006.jpg
This guy is fairly nicely painted as is. All I did was to add a wash. He is a great Eastern European cavalryman, though the horse is small, closer in size to a steppe pony. Maybe auxiliary cav of some kind?
Cossack
http://www.wizards.com/avalonhill/images/aamcs_gallery/Cossack_Cavalrymen.jpg
Nice fig, but expensive and tough to find.
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hmm....
pre 1870 Ruritania appears to be very small.
I wouldn't bother too much with the historical accuracy, we can simply stuff it somewehere into Bohemia.
The fact that the official
I remember somebody having a nation called "The Forgotten Pashalik of Grok" or something similar. It was forgotten by the great powers when dividing up the Balkans because it was a tiny nation that happened to lie right where the map edges came together.
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Yes, but the Balkans are way beyond where Ruritania is imagined
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so here we are, still in the business
with Red Orc's Ruritania
former user's Molvania
Gloriousbattle's Ottomania ;) and Transylvania
closely supported by Argsilverson
and monitored by Captain Blood
in at (at the moment only conceptual) alternative Steampunk Europe starting in the 19C and ending in the 20C
everyone else is invited to contribute
I already bought miniatures for a Molvanian interwar cadet regiment, Zeppelin Drop troopers, 2 Blimps, 1 Submarine and some ships, and intend to supplement with interwar cavalry and 19C versions of the regiments.
The goods trains are already there, the passenger train of the Royal Molvanian railway and the personal train of HRH King Rudolph will follow closely.
Oh, forgot the armoured trains...
The addition of a vampire-led Transsylvania sounds very promising
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You can't invade Ruritania without these:
(http://wargames.com.hk/oscommerce/images/res/BPTank_150_98.jpg)
Dwarven Steam Behemoth (becomes a BIG land leviathan in 15mm, and not a small one in 28mm)
(http://hive.crystalcommerce.com/photo/file/555/42593/large/Blood_War_-_007_Hammerer.jpg)
D&D Minis Hammerer
(http://www.toysrus.co.uk/medias/sys_master/8609558704737568.jpg)
Indiana Jones Tank; imaginary, great for VSF 15mm, much closer to 15mm scale. Maybe you could use these to play VSF OGRE in Ruritania?
(http://www.firezonestudios.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/guild-co-004-549x412.jpg)
Golden Compass airship
(http://www.toysrus.co.uk/medias/sys_master/8609558612033456.jpg)
Scoresby's ballon from the same film.
http://www.15mm.co.uk/HOF30_Automata_Infantry.htm
Buckets of soulless 15mm scale clockwork men.
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Hello,
does anyone have copies / dvd of Miniature Wargames 304-305 Aug-Sept 2008 ?
which has a Ruritania article
" Beyond Zenda "
JG
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Hi Elephant66, did anything ever come of your search for this article?