Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: FramFramson on 05 June 2013, 05:22:59 AM
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Now, granted Raging Heroes did put out extensive pre-campaign publicity to alert people to their kickstarter, but with a quarter-million in the bag after less than six hours, the Toughest Girls In The Galaxy Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy) is already shaping up to be on par with the Sedition Wars campaign.
Not something I'm particularly interested in, but phew, this kickstarter stuff is getting out of hand!
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Great, a range of half naked women models for sad lonely gamers to drool over...just what is needed to set the stereotypes in concrete even further..........fail.
If these were serious female soldier models it would be interesting, but for those of us who aren't children anymore you need to do more than sculpt boobs on women bending over like in a cheap porn film.
But it will be popular as It's showing, since the biggest base of sci-fi gamers realise its the closest they can get to a woman without having to wash.
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Well sculpted but nothing I'm interested in. If I was building an Escher gang I'd probably look into it, but I'm getting me a 3d printer instead... The bucaneer! I hope it's not a scam.
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Great, a range of half naked women models for sad lonely gamers to drool over...just what is needed to set the stereotypes in concrete even further..........fail.
If these were serious female soldier models it would be interesting, but for those of us who aren't children anymore you need to do more than sculpt boobs on women bending over like in a cheap porn film.
But it will be popular as It's showing, since the biggest base of sci-fi gamers realise its the closest they can get to a woman without having to wash.
Actually, i liked those. I wouldn't buy them because of the price, and also because after the Reaper Kickstarter i'm a little tired of of kickstarter campaings.
But... don't you think you're being a little offensive against random people? There are people here that appreciate half naked women in miniatures, and i really doubt they are having problems in real life for that.
So please.
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Your welcome to like half naked figures, or even full naked figures, the ones by hasslefree are nice, these are sluts, its a different kind of customer base, one wants an artistic nude figure, the other wants to sit in the corner going "lolzors bewbiessss! hur hur hur hick", big difference.
If that offends...well tough, you can't tell me somebody would buy a box of hookers with guns bending over because they "dropped a pencil" because of the artistic merit of the figures...load of codswallop
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Great, a range of half naked women models for sad lonely gamers to drool over...just what is needed to set the stereotypes in concrete even further..........fail.
Nay, that´s not just a stereotype. Sex sells and that is a fact.
If these were serious female soldier models it would be interesting, but for those of us who aren't children anymore you need to do more than sculpt boobs on women bending over like in a cheap porn film.
I´d call myself adult, but we are playing fantasy games with toys and all. The sheer existence of this forum is proof enough. It´s a matter of taste what one chooses to play with. By the way: Porn isn´t reality too.
But it will be popular as It's showing, since the biggest base of sci-fi gamers realise its the closest they can get to a woman without having to wash.
That is prejudice, I suppose. Many gamers around here have families and even if I am probably the only one to admit it, I guess that some married men like those (or similar) gaming pieces too.
Your welcome to like half naked figures, or even full naked figures, the ones by hasslefree are nice, these are sluts, its a different kind of customer base, one wants an artistic nude figure, the other wants to sit in the corner going "lolzors bewbiessss! hur hur hur hick", big difference.
Nope. If so, you could call me multiple persons.
If that offends...well tough, you can't tell me somebody would buy a box of hookers with guns bending over because they "dropped a pencil" because of the artistic merit of the figures...load of codswallop
I can.
All in all I find it a bit disappointing to talk that way of your peer group - given that you are a male gamer too. I respect your opinion though.
To keep it on topic I also have to say that those miniatures in particular do not appeal to me at all (who generally likes female miniatures).
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Keep it civil please.
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Keep it civil please.
Promised. :)
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This is the most blatant example yet of the abuse of the KickStarter idea and aim.
The $12k target they set was never going to be realistic for the supposed "goal" of the project, sculpt produce and market 3 armies of premium 28/34mm figures and a rule system. The whole thing has been deliberately and carefully designed to pump the stretch goal "freebies" and suck in more and more cash. Same tactic as CMoN projects use.
Clever, calculated and effective, but with absolutely no regard to the spirit of what KickStarter should be for.
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I'd have said good luck and all the best to them, but obviously they don't need it!
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I can.
Heh, i was specifically thinking about you Michi lol
But i also love this kind of "art". the sculpts are great, and sexual charge is not to be blamed just because. In some cases (and this might be one, though i haven't seen much sculptures yet) it is a kind of art.
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Great, a range of half naked women models for sad lonely gamers to drool over...just what is needed to set the stereotypes in concrete even further..........fail.
If these were serious female soldier models it would be interesting, but for those of us who aren't children anymore you need to do more than sculpt boobs on women bending over like in a cheap porn film.
But it will be popular as It's showing, since the biggest base of sci-fi gamers realise its the closest they can get to a woman without having to wash.
Wow, where do I start?
Please, while this won't get a penny of my money it is not exactly as you describe it.
And before you start on the "Science Fiction" war gamer stereotype, let me say something up front - nonsense.
There are those on this forum who I have had offline PM/e-mail conversations over my comments in the past about nudity and hints of sexual assault or other aspects of some miniatures. The fact that I am a Evangelical Presbyterian and personally very conservative in my faith and politics is well established and those who have disagreed with me on certain issues know I am thought of by some here as a "prude" but while these are awkwardly posed figures in many cases, using oversized weapons that require willing suspension of disbelief to accept, and are boringly derivative I find it almost offensive that you describe them as pornographic. I occasionally still see this thing called a newspaper which has ad inserts far more suggestive than the majority of these figures.
I am disappointed in your OTT description of this Kickstarter and can only assume you are venting from the "joys" of Real Life (patent pending) and can understand that. But as a primarily historical War Gamer I do think you really screwed the pooch with your stereotypical slam on Science Fiction war gamers.
No interest on the KS but no desire to flame them for what I merely see as "bad" figures that I would never spend $$ on and would trash quietly if they were a gift.
I think you are better than you presented yourself in your initial post. I certainly hope so.
Gracias,
Glenn
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A friend of mine is going to buy them, I have no idea why though.
The success of the campaign shows us that the concept clearly works. I wish they had one something I would also like, but hey, they need to make money too.
I'm not sure about that sex sells idea though... the Blood Vestals were even more offensive, but I liked those because they looked good. Maybe these World War I/II-aesthetics just do not appeal to me,
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I'm not sure about that sex sells idea though... the Blood Vestals were even more offensive, but I liked those because they looked good. Maybe these World War I/II-aesthetics just do not appeal to me,
well, it really does to me! The sculpts are really good, but looks to me that painting them needs skills that i don't have. And money, of course. :)
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You have never struck me as prudish Glenn. Old School yes prudish no.
Thank you.
The "prude" comment from another was not ill intended but simply an opinion/evaluation of my comments. Much more gentlemanly on LAF than the WW3 about similar figures a few years ago on TMP.
While not the reason I left TMP (much more personality based :o and probably just a tad bit :( ego based :-X ) but this kind of discussion still retains the touch of class that defines 99% of the experience here on LAF. Even when I break the rules (usually because of an unintended senior moment) the moderators gently chastise me. :)
Going to let this issue go now...
Gracias,
Glenn
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I popped over to have a look at the concept sketches; aside from a tank top or two, most of the girls, especially the militaristic ones (kurganovas?) seem to be covered nearly neck to foot in some sort of uniform/combat gear. The most revealing are the standard bearer (who many have mentioned elsewhere looks a lot like tank girl), the lady with the radio and the not-tech priestess. 3 out of how many miniatures that have been revealed? While some of the poses are a bit pin-up like, it doesn't seem fair to write this whole endeavour off as puerile TnA. They hardly seem to be the risqué and immature fare many people are slating them as.
But that's just my opinion, I suppose.
I'd like to pick up a few of the heroines for PA type gaming, but Deadzone just rolled a crit vs. my wallet. I'm both happy and sad about that.
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Well, all the best to them, appears they will do quite well.
I bought the Blood Vestals from Raging Heroes and my overall take on them is:
1) A bit too small for me.
2) Waaaay to much detail for me to paint.
The figures are awesome, but I just can't see me doing them justice.
Dunno about this trend towards hyper detail, in general I'm not too keen on it.
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1) A bit too small for me.
2) Waaaay to much detail for me to paint.
exactly my thoughts. =( Apparently, the only way to paint them is becoming a masterclass painter.
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I will never need or want an army of these, but if possible I might pick up a few of the individual models at some point. I do suspect their prices to bee too high though. Time will tell I guess.
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I will never need or want an army of these, but if possible I might pick up a few of the individual models at some point. I do suspect their prices to bee too high though. Time will tell I guess.
Well the cost certainly "is a factor" but based on the success it seems it didn't exceed "all the market can bear" in the slightest.
Gracias,
Glenn
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$15 for one figurine? That's twenty times what I charge for a 15mm figurine. And believe me, it doesn't cost me 1/20th their costs to have one figurine created.
I make 15mm because I like the way the models scale out on the tabletop, but there's always a part of me wondering why, as I often don't even make back my investment in ranges. It seems to me that charging GW prices for GW-looking models is where the money is, because that's what people want and they are willing to pay those prices. Pretty eye-opening.
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Without trying to stir up the argument too much. I really, really dislike the fact that it is all female. It just utterly fails as a concept.
I understand that it will sell. It doesn't mean I have to understand why. Of the miniatures like this I tend to see people buy one or two to add to existing forces but not as entire armies in their own right.
And looking at it that way some of them look clearly inspired by GW imperial guard army types.
Again no problem with that. I really don't like some of the poses or the style though. Some is far too cartoony. Sometimes I wonder if that is an excuse/cover up for not getting the anatomy right.
As mentioned elsewhere there are better sci-fi women/babes/chicks/girls/honeyz out there by the likes of Hasslefree and Statuesque and they are far more likely to get my pounds/dollar/ker-ching too.
Not for me this one.
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It seems to me that charging GW prices for GW-looking models is where the money is, because that's what people want and they are willing to pay those prices. Pretty eye-opening.
But that would make for a pretty boring miniatures market. I for one is VERY happy to see an abundance of different miniatures and different scales, even though I don't buy into every scale or oddball figure line out there.... yet...
:D
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$15 for one figurine? That's twenty times what I charge for a 15mm figurine. And believe me, it doesn't cost me 1/20th their costs to have one figurine created.
I make 15mm because I like the way the models scale out on the tabletop, but there's always a part of me wondering why, as I often don't even make back my investment in ranges. It seems to me that charging GW prices for GW-looking models is where the money is, because that's what people want and they are willing to pay those prices. Pretty eye-opening.
Well, as much as I don't want to see the prices rise... why not? Not saying you should or shouldn't... but do you think you could sell your figures at that price? Would the market bear that much of a price increase? Would the market bear that much of a price increase for 15 mm figures? Would you feel comfortable asking that price?
Gracias,
Glenn
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Without trying to stir up the argument too much. I really, really dislike the fact that it is all female. It just utterly fails as a concept.
I understand that it will sell. It doesn't mean I have to understand why. Of the miniatures like this I tend to see people buy one or two to add to existing forces but not as entire armies in their own right.
<snip>
So, do you feel the same way about all male armies for Fantasy or Historical games too? For all male armies for futuristic games (given the 21st century sees some mixed gender armies which may or may not continue for major powers)?
Gracias,
Glenn
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I reckon the strategist would make a nice Inquisitor.
The Kurganova Heavy Troopers are pretty cool too.
A lot of it does look like a P.I.T.A to paint though.
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Well, as much as I don't want to see the prices rise... why not? Not saying you should or shouldn't... but do you think you could sell your figures at that price? Would the market bear that much of a price increase? Would the market bear that much of a price increase for 15 mm figures? Would you feel comfortable asking that price?
Well, that wasn't really my point -- my point was that these types of models in this scale are fetching that price. People do not get into 15mm with those same expectations.
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But that would make for a pretty boring miniatures market. I for one is VERY happy to see an abundance of different miniatures and different scales, even though I don't buy into every scale or oddball figure line out there.... yet...
I can understand that people like knowing there are all sorts of different models out there. The problem is you don't make models so that people will be happy that they exist. You make them so people will buy them.
These Raging Heroes models attact a lot of scorn from the internet peanut gallery, but as has just been proven, they sell like mad. There are the things people say, and the things people like knowing exist, and then there are the things they actually collect.
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I can understand that people like knowing there are all sorts of different models out there. The problem is you don't make models so that people will be happy that they exist. You make them so people will buy them.
These Raging Heroes models attact a lot of scorn from the internet peanut gallery, but as has just been proven, they sell like mad. There are the things people say, and the things people like knowing exist, and then there are the things they actually collect.
Something you have to wake upto.
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Something you have to wake upto.
If you've read my previous comments you can see that I'm awake.
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If you've read my previous comments you can see that I'm awake.
Yeah sure. Just stating the obvious really. Wasn't critiqueing one of my favourite supplier of minis.
You yourself (Khurasan) must have about 20-30 individual vehicles and figures I actually want to buy, but the money just isn't there for me to spend at the moment.
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cool looking models, but I am going to pass...already locked up in a few other Kickstarters and my wife will divorce me if I pledge any more this month! If it looks like it will pick up and be popular, I may get in on it later...at this point I fear it is a fad.
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True, everyone has to make money.
But I think many people, like me, buy lot of different models from a longe range of small companies. So even though I personally won't make every small company out there rich, I hope there is people enough, like me, interested in all sorts of different niche ranges to make it worth it making these ranges.
I didn't mean that I just like miniatures to be available and then never buy them anyway.
I generally buy my miniatures at smaller companies and second hand. At the moment stuff like this Kickstarter doesn't attract me enough to buy into it in big scale.
So far I have supported Kickstarter campaigns from Ramshackle Games and Comfy Chair Games. That is the like of stuff I want to support.
Also I just recently bought my first 15mm miniatures and might very well buy some more at Khurasan at some point and already have the page bookmarked for a long time. But then again it all is a matter of money, I can't buy everything I want all the time, unfortunately.
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I popped over to have a look at the concept sketches; aside from a tank top or two, most of the girls, especially the militaristic ones (kurganovas?) seem to be covered nearly neck to foot in some sort of uniform/combat gear.
I second that!
There I was in one of my more immature moments, clicking on the link to see drawn/sculpted/whatever boobies ... and?!?!?! ... They are all covered!!!!
As far as the scuplting by RagingHeroes goes ... I have seen far worse ... and personally I like the sculpts. Some are a bit on the "overloaded" side of sculpting but still.
Speaking of proportions I think they do far better than GW. Hell, take a look at Catachans ... need I say more?
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These Raging Heroes models attact a lot of scorn from the internet peanut gallery, but as has just been proven, they sell like mad. There are the things people say, and the things people like knowing exist, and then there are the things they actually collect.
I kind of resent that. I scorned them slightly. But then in the same way that I scorn some of the CMON ranges.
First off I am a wargamer, or at least like to think I am, I build forces of my own devising (currently a force of resistance fighters and a force of Neo Sovs) using miniatures from different sources, sometimes kitbashing them to make them a little more unique and a little more personal.
I like relatively realistic proportions anatomy wise. I prefer gritty-realism to the likes of soda pop. Infinity rips me down the middle, some really nice miniatures and some that lean a lot more down the 'graphic novel' style that just don't do it for me.
Miniatures of this style, coupled with their pricing appear to appealing to two sets of people. As you have said, GW fans and CMON fans. I say fans because the reality is that if you are a hardened GW gamer who plays in stores and official tournaments these miniatures are useless to you.
So in my mind the primary appeal of these miniatures is display cases and painting competition/sites. To me the style, level of detail and warping of the anatomy support of this. And it leads me to be unsurprised that on a forum with a heavier focus on wargaming, these are not getting the most positive response.
Another thing I wouldn't mind seeing is what the sales of some of the kickstarter miniatures have been like after the completion of the kickstarter. I get the impression that some of them are going to be a bit like the toy crazes and a year down the line be pretty low on sales, where as the likes of the TAG miniatures will be a longer term investment that will probably provided steady sales over a longer period.
To me, the popularity of a kickstarter has nothing to do with the actual quality and popularity of the miniatures at the end of it.
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I love ladies as much as the next guy, but in my fantasy/sci-fi experiences I still want a small hint of reality. I don't see that in full armies of (a bit too slender) females. Perhaps, as someone mentioned, they'd work for an Escher gang in Necromunda, but the idea of a solely female army is just silly to me.
This is a shame as it would be fine with me to see a couple of female models in many ranges...but normal looking females would be far more appealing. Judging by how popular Japanese anime super heroines are, I'm not surprised at the success of this kickstarter already.
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Not read through all of this but I'll weigh in with this; If they can give me Iron Empire weapons crews with heavy weapons my Steel Legion need, I'll be happy. I'm a little uncomfortable with the 'all female' schtick, it's kind of the antithesis of GeeDub, and just as bad as the 'all male space marines' tripe.
More importantly, the instant overwhelming success makes Rick Priestly's comments about 'not enough demand for female miniatures' during the aborted Gates of Antares kickstarter look completely stupid and makes him look like he has no idea of the wider industry beyond the GW/Historical 'all male armies (except one)' mould.
Much as I respect the man for his contributions to gaming, I think he's clearly very out of touch.
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Not read through all of this but I'll weigh in with this; If they can give me Iron Empire weapons crews with heavy weapons my Steel Legion need, I'll be happy. I'm a little uncomfortable with the 'all female' schtick, it's kind of the antithesis of GeeDub, and just as bad as the 'all male space marines' tripe.
More importantly, the instant overwhelming success makes Rick Priestly's comments about 'not enough demand for female miniatures' during the aborted Gates of Antares kickstarter look completely stupid and makes him look like he has no idea of the wider industry beyond the GW/Historical 'all male armies (except one)' mould.
Much as I respect the man for his contributions to gaming, I think he's clearly very out of touch.
I think you just contradicted yourself.
I don't think many people will be buying these to make entire armies of lady soldiers. As I have said before, I don't think they have even designed them for such use. But they have aimed them at people like you who may want to fill out parts of their armies with some female versions. That way they can at least rely on a couple of hundred people pledging a half decent amount.
Priestly is probably right, and has the facts in the form of the Sisters of Battle, to back it up.
If you are a wargames designer, looking to design armies and concepts for a wargame based in a fictional universe, I would be inclined to agree with what he has said. Selling entire armies of 40-60 models of that type would probably be a lot tougher than more typical army types.
These will sell - but because they are not consigned to an army book and have multiple applications and appeal.
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Big guns can be fun, but if a gun gets too big you really out to put some wheels or treads on it and put a little chair on it and ride it around or have it towed or something. Some of those ladies are hip-firing guns the size of an old Xerox copier. Also a couple of them appear to be possibly twerking on the battlefield.
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Well, that wasn't really my point -- my point was that these types of models in this scale are fetching that price. People do not get into 15mm with those same expectations.
Fair enough, apologies if I came off badly. :)
Now you have me wondering if there are "expectation differences" between 3/6/15/25/+ war gamers but tha needs to be another thread. ???
I started [military miniatures/not plastic Toy Soldiers in a bag] back in the later 1960's when there were only two scales (well, perceived to be only two) - 1/72nd Plastic and 25 mm Metal. And, no, it really wasn't that restricted but when I asked my rather large and diverse war gaming circle about "other sizes" I got the blankest stares... o_o :`
Gracias,
Glenn
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Bloody boring miniatures, aren't they?
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Fair enough, apologies if I came off badly. :)
Now you have me wondering if there are "expectation differences" between 3/6/15/25/+ war gamers but tha needs to be another thread. ???
Just before ending my OT: i think that this kind of "high level 28mm miniatures" deserve that price for the use they have: the price is not strictly related to the cost of producion, but also to the market: this kind of pieces are single pieces meant to be sold to a limited number of people, and are used as single character. When you sell one, you also fill a "market hole" (dunno how to say), which will not allow another purchase.
if you are looking for mass miniatures for big games (so: miniatures with more similar looks, meant for bigger forces) they will have cheaper prices for the same quality. But they are actually another kind of product.
To simplify: The cost of production of a 50$ bottle of wine is not 50 times more than the cost of a 1$ bottle of wine (yes, in italy we have this kind of wine... and that's not that bad as you can imagine--- still bad, though).
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I wouldn't call these high level.
They are nice, not horrible miniatures. But I find it hard to see how these are better than Hasslefree and Statuesque which are both more anatomically accurate and more accomplished sculpts for less money.
I did do a comparison between this kickstarter and the Statuesque range.
4 miniatures on this kickstarter are $40 plus shipping, which to the UK is $20 (which seems a lot when it's from France). So $60. That is around £39.
Go shop around and see what you can get for that kind of money, including postage of course, and I'd argue that you will get more miniatures and in many cases better miniatures for your money.
For starters whilst you can still get them, the GW Escher gangs are available for £20.50 +p&p which is 8 models. You can throw in the booster set of five more models for £8.70 and still have more than £10 left to cover postage.
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Hum, even though i really LOVE the style of Kev White, i think that this level of sculpture is quite much superior.
another consideration: 39£ for four "heroes" is not that crazy, it is the same than the price of four characters from Avatars of War or from Tales of War. If you are looking for troops, of course, you should look at the various addons, 15$ for three troops is quite reasonable.
And apparently the customers response to that kickstarter agrees with me. Again, i wouldn't buy them because i love more cartoonish and cheaper styles, like Hasslefree (which i LOVE), but they have a reason to be there, IMHO. :)
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Hum, even though i really LOVE the style of Kev White, i think that this level of sculpture is quite much superior.
i love more cartoonish and cheaper styles, like Hasslefree
I honestly don't know how to respond to this! Eyebrows, through the roof.
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I honestly don't know how to respond to this! Eyebrows, through the roof.
Sorry i touched your idol. I was trying to say my opinion, apparently when we're about saying something less orthodox people here get on fire.
Once again, i love HF miniatures, eh! But i don't consider them at the top just because they were the first. And i don't see why you should blame me for thinking that. That's inappropriate.
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I like some of these - I could see them as characters in plenty of other armies. The necro-priestess I'd pick up, but I reckon it will be a screaming nightmare to glue together.
Bit of nit-picking going on here though. All-female army? An idea that's no dafter than Necromunda Eschers, 40k Sisters of Battle, or the Hinterlands range. Or, for that matter, half the science-fantasy minis that dominate our hobby.
Sculpting style? I reckon that Kev White is one of the best out there, but these are deliberately pin-up style, with long legs, slim waists and big guns. See also - plenty of other minis lines. I have Infinity characters that have similar proportions. Realism is not the be-all and end-all in miniatures, indeed in many genres it's just another choice.
That's not an excuse for poor minis, but these are done well and consistently (well, what we've seen so far, and I'm incuding their previous stuff, which all looks decent).
Another bloody Kickstarter? Seems to be working for plenty of companies and their customers. Caveat emptor, very much so, but I've been chuffed with what I've picked up so far (and it's all painted).
Bit pricey? Yeah. Customer choice and all that though - a lot of people don't seem to mind. I'd rather pay £20 for one mini that will be painted and played with than for 10 that will sit in a box in the attic.
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Sculpting style? I reckon that Kev White is one of the best out there, but these are deliberately pin-up style, with long legs, slim waists and big guns. See also - plenty of other minis lines.
I can't even begin to say how many times I've been painting a figure, and thinking "I wish Kev White had sculpted these" or "Too bad this wasn't done by Kev White". His stuff is highly detailed, but easily paintable.
I have the Raging Heroes Sci-Fi Blood Vestals and although I've not painted them, they're very nice sculpts and am looking forward to getting to them. I'm sure this new range of figures will be great too- stylized, which may or may not meet a person's needs or desires, but I think they will be high quality, crisp and clean unlike some other highly-touted ranges out there.
If you want realistic hard sci-fi females, I'm sure that the forthcoming Dreamforge figures will do the trick. The 'Ada' figure is suitably feminine, realistically so- but even so the new figures are going to piss some people off because the helmets are wrong, they're plastic, <insert reason> etc.
Have patience people, realistic sci-fi chicks with weapons will arrive some day. I recall just a few short years ago asking for robed cultists without weapons, with revolvers, etc. Now its hard to keep up with the releases of them there's so many o_o
ETA: My wife wasn't put off by the Raging Heroes Kickstarter, all girl armies don't bother her at all, and a lot of other females with a particular vision of 'girl power' feel likewise. Not sure what that says honestly, just thought I'd mention it.
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Sorry i touched your idol. I was trying to say my opinion, apparently when we're about saying something less orthodox people here get on fire.
Once again, i love HF miniatures, eh! But i don't consider them at the top just because they were the first. And i don't see why you should blame me for thinking that. That's inappropriate.
I don't think Vermis meant anything other than to show his extreme surprise at your point of view.
Technically speaking, as someone who has studied anatomy and kinesiology, Kev White is far, far superior a sculptor to most other miniature sculptors out there. His anatomy and proportions suffer fewer distortions (and those are intentional from some of the comments that I have read from him) than Raging Heroes sculpts. Plus, his depictions of movement and weight in miniature are second to none.
Stylistically speaking, people may or may not like his work. To boil it down to a comparison that most people (in this hobby) can relate to: RH figures are GW with a heavy helping of Anime. Kev is realistic with a dash of GW.
Some like one, some the other. Some people like both.
~Eric
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Technically speaking, as someone who has studied anatomy and kinesiology, Kev White is far, far superior a sculptor to most other miniature sculptors out there. His anatomy and proportions suffer fewer distortions (and those are intentional from some of the comments that I have read from him) than Raging Heroes sculpts. Plus, his depictions of movement and weight in miniature are second to none.
Actually, that is my doubt about him:
all the characters have fat legs and arms, and cartoonish shapes and flat surfaces... But i respect your knowledge, probably it's just an effect of the small scale. :)
Some like one, some the other. Some people like both.
I definitely do :)
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I think it is all a matter of keeping perspective.
Those of us, ahem, of a certain age remember when Starguard (30+ years ago) really kicked off Science Fiction wargaming when they basically wasn't any such thing. Reviresco miniatures were the rage in many areas and while some of them have come along well (1/144th WW1 aircraft) and some still have value - I use the Starguard Power Armor and Terran Imperium Trolls super Power Armor to fight "Bugs" - many of the sculpts (unchanged since then) have not aged well (basically anything "human" not in power Armor) at all, IMO.
The "realistic" versus "representative" discussion has raged since day 1, there was no "female armies" discussion because it was the 1960s/1970s and essentially no one was sculpting them, the same rules mechanics issues were being debated with rancour on occasion, and the discussions of price (doubling the price from 25 cents to 50 cents almost started WW3) versus value existed then.
Compared to many figures today these far from as suggestive or near nudity attired as many that are out there now. I hate to sound like a broken record but, at the end of the day buy what appeals and just shake your head at he figures your friends buy (as they do to your buying.) While I have my opinions on stuff from miniatures to American Politics to the Culture Wars I frequently think we tend to act like physicians - view with alarm so you can point with pride - about way too much in life. My Liberal friends and co-workers are simply ;) wrong, not evil, and they "mistakenly' believe :o the same about me. So it is with miniatures, I like 3/6 mm for armies and 25 mm or less for "single figure" games (skirmish and RPG) while others won't consider anything under "28" mm; styles of sculpting are even more individual evaluations.
Not getting into this KS but obviously others have different tastes and way more discretionary income than I do... Which is not bad, just a choice.
Gracias,
Glenn
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another consideration: 39£ for four "heroes" is not that crazy, it is the same than the price of four characters from Avatars of War or from Tales of War. If you are looking for troops, of course, you should look at the various addons, 15$ for three troops is quite reasonable.
That's exactly the sort of market model I first referred to -- it's straight out of the GW playbook, basically. Avatars was one of the earliest companies to make GW-type models (same basic sculpting style and for what are, let's face it, the same factions as in WFB) and they priced their heroes within the same range as GW.
And like GW, AoW (and now Raging Heroes) price the models based on their points value in the game. So "man with sword" who is a 500 point hero could cost two to four times as much as the same model were he a 15 point grunt.
The fact that these companies which are adopting GW's marketing model are also applying the same pricing and marketing style is hardly surprising.
Needless to say, I don't think anything wrong's being done here, not my point at all. Whether the RH models are quality sculpts is entirely subjective (I actually like them myself as good examples of the cartoony GW aesthetic), but it seems objectively true they are designed in the 40k style and the line is structured to work with it as well (fitting into an IG list and even having the same types such as "Troops" and "Support"). This type of marketing is sunk so deep into gamer's attitudes that it's very easily transferable over to ranges other than GW's.
I began miniature wargaming well before the advent of GW's integrated hobby marketing and have watched it grow, mostly with admiration, not the anger at the company one sometimes sees. In fact, I'm wondering if that model isn't the only model going forward -- it could well be the lifeline that you need to get out of the money pit that has characterised the hobby for small companies for so long.
Of course, the problem with that is, you don't get to make exactly what you want to -- you have to work within that GW framework. But just looking at the sales in a kickstarter like this one, it makes you feel a bit silly to be doing anything else really.
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Of course, the problem with that is, you don't get to make exactly what you want to -- you have to work within that GW framework. But just looking at the sales in a kickstarter like this one, it makes you feel a bit silly to be doing anything else really.
I don't think it is silly to do what you want instead of following the money. I don't produce miniatures myself, but can kind of relate to problems anyway.
I play a lot of music and have all the time chosen to go my own way and never the money way. I doubt I could get rich playing music, but I am sure I could make more money on it than I do now, if I chose to adapt to the market instead of what I want to do for myself.
In the the end I hope it is more satisfying this way. As long as the bills are paid, there is a roof over my head and I get something to eat I guess it is enough for me so far.
But then again, I wouldn't think that these Raging Heroes guys do this just to make money, they probably do this because it is what they want to do and if they can make money at the same time, who is to blame them.
I hope it makes a bit sense and I am not just rambling here.
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I suppose it comes down to what you want. GW has long been a commercial venture and had CEO's that are experts in business, economics and marketing and in many occasions no great fan of war games or miniatures.
As a small Indie sculptor or musician you can either do what you enjoy and sell it any which way you can or you make music you thing the big wigs want to hear in the hope you get signed and make miniatures/music for the commercial powers.
Sometimes you can be lucky and what you enjoy is exactly what the commercial types are looking for.
But tbh these are boring. I'm getting fed up with kick starters and I'm getting fed up with this sort of model. There are tons of them out there. They only fit with GW stuff or as a force of their own. Very little about them is particularly original and they borrow a lot from GW.
The music comparison works well. These are like the spice girls of the miniature world. They are a phase, a fad, a heavily commercialized product. And to be fair I'm being harsh, they are not designed to be sophisticated anatomically accurate or believable pieces, they are thoughtless fantastical miniatures.
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Man, Sangennaru. I dunno what would happen if I tried to insult you.
I'll go out on a limb and say it's not my opinion. Eric said it very well - I haven't had any formal education on this subject myself, but I've studied a little anatomy for mini-sculpting, and the cartoonier lot is not Hasslefree. Maybe some compromises for scale and casting considerations, but it's Raging Heroes who are following the superhero-comic playbook with overstretched legs, sucked-in waists, and so on. And like comic-book proportions, I'd say it's skewing some perceptions about what 'realistic' anatomy is.
Since I'm here: that's just part of what narks me about this kickstarter. They've got wonky proportions, but I'll bet RH and the backers don't care. They are very finely rendered, but I'll bet that's not the main USP of these for RH and the backers. They might fill a niche for female soldiers and please some with their 'girl power', but despite the kickstarter title I'll bet that's not what RH is relying on to pull in the backers.
You might say that they're more covered than other female minis out there; but when they open their kickstarter with this (https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/643/190/6c9a425f64cada4e7ac60a06e922e561_large.jpg?1370303460) and this (https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/643/197/e58c9701aed49c4df21d31f5f24d6112_large.jpg?1370303538), I'd say that's a fairly weak excuse. Even the heavy trooper concepts, well-covered from head to toe, have breasts pushing out of their armour. What's that about? Considering the other concept -> render translations, what're they going to look like afterwards? Granted, Hasslefree has a bit of this as well, in some minis, but overall Kev scores another point (http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?category=miniatures~sci%252dfi-humans).
So in a nutshell, TL;DR: the main aim of these is not to promote diversity, toughness, grrl power, or female soldiers - even a full army of them. It's to sell an army of pinups. An upscaled version of the most common of Raging Heroes' usual marketing ploys.
Yes, that's their prerogative, and they're mini-sellers not social activists; but I don't have to like it, and please don't help their meagre attempts at wool-pulling by making them out to be more noble than they are. I can't change the minds of everyone scuttling and clambering over eachother to throw money at these, but I can still say it irritates me that they're doing so; about other worthy - worthier - kickstarters and shops slowly scraping pledges and sales while hype, questionable promises, and the lowest common denominator send numbers skyrocketing once again. Not just about the bare-midriff brigade, specifically, but about the massive cashing in on GW's popularity; greed for more freebies and (ironically) money for freebies; and the ability to deliver. I've already heard rumblings in some corners about how difficult some of these might be to produce, and the strains it could cause. Maybe it won't happen this time, with this kickstarter, but somehow I don't expect Roginshirozz to buck the trend.
Not to begrudge anyone making a bit of dosh, but it's all starting to look a bit grubby and grasping. It's like one of the biggest contributions kickstarter's made to the wargaming hobby is to allow a bunch of mini-GWs to sprout up and take advantage of it. Whether this level and method of wargaming kickstarter is sustainable or even tolerable in the future, I have no idea. But I kind of hope not.
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Fortunately about 90% of my "large"/small scale (25+ mm) figures are from the 1970s and 1980's (LWR Soldado are later I believe.)
Mostly I am filling niches (Meridian KS for my 'VSF "Spanish Sikhs" elite troopers') and are converting to 3 mm (or some older 6 mm) with new armies.
I have decided to not pay excessive amounts anymore ($60 for 6 Grenadier/Gamma World Power Armor has always been outside my 3rd sigma,) especially as I reduce my armies pending retirement. Again, you like it that much then enjoy. I am glad this is going well but i am thinking y=tha I glad I m not stating fresh in the hobby.
Gracias,
Glenn
slightly iconoclastic by personality...
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...I frequently think we tend to act like physicians - view with alarm so you can point with pride - about way too much in life. My Liberal friends and co-workers are simply ;) wrong, not evil, and they "mistakenly' believe :o the same about me. So it is with miniatures, I like 3/6 mm for armies and 25 mm or less for "single figure" games (skirmish and RPG) while others won't consider anything under "28" mm; styles of sculpting are even more individual evaluations.
Not getting into this KS but obviously others have different tastes and way more discretionary income than I do... Which is not bad, just a choice.
Smartest thing said in this thread. Thanks Glenn.
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Edit: Ah bugger it, who needs to rant about toy soldiers? Each to their own ;)
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The Walker is pretty cool:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/655/731/9123e2333e25150ed1b9eada1b94297e_large.jpg?1370649978)
Like I say, I like the minis, but I think they are probably too detailed for me to do a decent job painting them.
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The Walker is pretty cool
Nonsense, look at her, all exposed on the front there! This is nothing but sexism and pandering to the immature young boys! I demand she gets a fully enclosed and armoured cock...pit this instant!
;)
All joking aside there are a few of the miniatures coming out of this kickstarter that I am going to keep an eye on, basically any with semi-plausable looking power armour, but I'm not going to bite just for some nice concept art and 3d sculpt pictures. If they get some pictures up of a physical copy of any that I'm interested in and I still like them then I might have a word with my bank card.
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Oh look...the matrix and GW dreadknight... ::)
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I haven't read the rest of this topic. I've said my piece and don't want to rant anymore. (It takes up too much time and angries up the blood) But I can imagine someone calling out my criticism of the tech-priestess concept art: "what are you talking about? It's a bit of skin surrounded by gross metal bits!" I don't know if that's the case, but here you go anyway.
http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/post/49565498424/spinnywizards-submitted-witchblade-redesign
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http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/post/49565498424/spinnywizards-submitted-witchblade-redesign
Interesting :)
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The Walker is pretty cool:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/655/731/9123e2333e25150ed1b9eada1b94297e_large.jpg?1370649978)
Like I say, I like the minis, but I think they are probably too detailed for me to do a decent job painting them.
Still not getting any of my money but it does follow their thematic feel quite well. I wonder if the miniature will come out looking like the picture - many a slip between the lip and the cup.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Hello dear LAF-members,
I cann't or wont understand most the the discussion so far. For me a forum is a place to share the personel projects and opinions but not to attack other members for theirs.
Here are my 2 Cents...
... about the discussion so far:
There are so many companies and ten-thousands of miniatures on the market. So everybody in this hobby has to choose what and how many miniatures and rules he want/could buy. It is all a matter of interest and personal taste - and I think that it isn't a good idea to argue about such points. I didn't read all the comments but some seemed very offending.
... about my opinion about the miniatures:
Even if I am in the minority group I can honestly say that I like the concepts and miniatures (3D-renders, masters) so far. This is my first Kickstarter and I pledged for the Major Level so far. I already bought 20 Blood Vestrals (for my personal taste the best Dark Elf Witch Elves). For me the company has proven with this miniatures that they can transpose their concepts into highly detailed and well cast miniatures. The following picture shows my painted blood vestal next to a Dark Elf miniature from Marc Copplestone (for size comparison).
(http://www.elladan.de/047%20Darkelves%20old/DSCN3754.jpg)
I agree with some oppinions that the miniatures from Raging Heroes are a challenge to the painting skills. They may not the best choice to be painted in greater numbers in a good quality to do the sculpts justice. And when I sometimes will paint them every single miniature might be a showcase in my cabinet. And yes, they are not on the cheap side but for me they are worth the money.
I hope that the Kickstarter will work well in the next days and hopefully will unlock many more great miniatures to choose from.
Ciao
Elmar
http://www.elladan.de/ (http://www.elladan.de/)
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It's a bit of skin surrounded by gross metal bits!" I don't know if that's the case, but here you go anyway.
http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/post/49565498424/spinnywizards-submitted-witchblade-redesign
Well likewise - I can respond to your points in a civilised manner now :)
On the subject of T&A, I agree that plenty of companies do objectify women - I have Infinity figures that have even more extreme proportions than the RH ones. I can't see why you've singled out RH, or how you can compare Hasslefree favourably with RH on this point (I know someone else raided the HF connection first).
Where on the Witchblade diagram would you put Hasslefree's pole dancer sculpt? Or any of their demonettes or harem girls or fantasy adventurers? How different is RH's One-Shot Blondie from Hasslefree's Boudi figure, young and buxom with a bare midriff? Is "within the bounds of reality" what separates the two companies for you? For me Hasslefree makes a lot of pinup and fantasy stereotype figures, anatomically correct though they are.
Ditto for ripping off other people's work. Not only is it industry-wide, but since we've brought them up, Hasslefree have "not-" figures that are recognisably based on characters from Battlestar Galactica, Scooby Doo, Shaun of the Dead, Dirty Harry, Hot Fuzz and Army of Darkness. And he's sculpted not-Doctor Who figures for Crooked Dice. Again, why pick on RH, when their models are probably more "reminiscent of" GW's Catachan, Cadian (or Valhallans?) and Death Korps rather than a direct ripoff?
Now kudos to Hasslefree - their Libby figures are not just realistic, but actually representative of real women, in an industry where normal-looking female sculpts tend to end up in the "medieval villagers" pack. And I own a number of the above "famous" sculpts - but I'm not the one complaining.
I do think a couple of the sculpts in the RH Kickstarter - Bernadette the Nurse, all boobs and rubber gloves, and one of the artiller figures, knock-kneed and bum in the air - are cheesecake to the point of being naff. But I don't see the majority being cheesecake, or any worse than Hasslefree or many other companies' offerings.
As for Kickstarter and the virtues of being a small-timer, I just plain disagree with You and Mcfonz. I don't think that small-timers are inherently more virtuous just because they do their own thing (worked for and with big and small companies over the past 25 years).
Kickstarter - some small companies I've backed have done some nice stuff that otherwise they might not have had the courage to try - Dreamforge, Stonehaven. Nor do I think it's "grubby" or "grasping" to make stuff your customers want, or to take those requests on board. I genuinely don't get the Kickstarter hate.
I also don't think that the customer base as a whole is "greedy" for freebies. There are plenty of people who are happy to be on board and pay up front, excited by the product, keen to test the rules, as well as the selfish whiners. Kickstarter feedback, internet forums (present company excluded) and Youtube comments all confirm what customer service staff and French existential philosophers have always known - hell is other people :)
TL;DR: Why pick on Raging Heroes specifically?
Last up - what's a "worthy" miniatures Kickstarter? One you like? One where you know the guy?
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They look great for some settings and as collectibles. There is more to this hobby then pushing toy soldiers around and rolling dice. Not as useful for a more realistic sci-fi but that could be said of male figures in similarly unrealistic outfits and poses which there are plenty of. As far as "blue humor" absolutely! My wife if planning to build a sniper squad consisting of ummm "entertainers" from the local gentleman's club for her militia army. You can have fun with some of these settings especially sci-fi and fantasy in a way you often can't with historic settings.
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Scurv,
Tell grandpa that Noch make some, uh, interesting, 1/72 figures in a lot of compromising positions for his model railway layout lol
As for Raging Heroes, there are enough that I'd buy if I had a use for them.
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Scurv,
Tell grandpa that Noch make some, uh, interesting, 1/72 figures in a lot of compromising positions for his model railway layout ...
It's 1:87 not 1:72 ;) You can also buy a redlight district magazine and toys shop by Bush-Model and I remember someone produced tons of nudists and artists doing nude painting already back in the 80s
... still I remember no model railroader ever showing those around despite the affirmation by the model railroad supplier of my choice, that they are his best sellers...
We wargamers seem have no problem showing those minis around, ... I begin to wonder why?
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Model railroad displays are usually static in one's loft or basement, garage or shed. You don't take them down to the club and lay them out!
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Well, as we all know by this KS was a big success. Didn't surprise me one bit, after all who (apart from yours truly) doesn't love GW aesthetics with a side order of boobies? What does surprise me a bit is that some of the actual trooper miniatures that look to be about to come out of this aren't really as overblown as the sketches seemed to imply. The characters seem to have been lavished with an overt degree of superfluous detail tho but I suppose that' sorta unavoidable, given the genre.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy/posts/625391
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What does surprise me a bit is that some of the actual trooper miniatures that look to be about to come out of this aren't really as overblown as the sketches seemed to imply.
Surprised me as well.
Perhaps if they had showed off the minis or 3d renders early on they would have gotten more attention.
The sketches actually scared me away from this one.
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<snopP, after all who (apart from yours truly) doesn't love GW aesthetics with a side order of boobies? <snip>
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy/posts/625391
Make that two.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Yes, the final versions are actually quite a bit less lunatic. Kind of funny how that worked out, especially given how over-the-top their existing models were.
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Maybe it's a cost issue or something. I should think less Gothic encrustation leads to lower production costs ???
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A big update on this one. Lotsa piccies, mostly of the more over-the-top models, much to some people's liking I'm sure. The artillery pieces are still looking nice enough but I'm thinking the pix featuring them aren't actually even new.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy/posts/771967
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Personally, I'm waiting for the standard troopers, as those are the most plausible offerings and more likely to match my current minis.
Nice playlist in the latest update, btw.