(KICKSTARTER) Raging Heroes KS is already on fire, I see

[Sangennaru]

I honestly don't know how to respond to this! Eyebrows, through the roof.

Sorry i touched your idol. I was trying to say my opinion, apparently when we're about saying something less orthodox people here get on fire.

Once again, i love HF miniatures, eh! But i don't consider them at the top just because they were the first. And i don't see why you should blame me for thinking that. That's inappropriate.

[Momotaro]

I like some of these - I could see them as characters in plenty of other armies.  The necro-priestess I'd pick up, but I reckon it will be a screaming nightmare to glue together.

Bit of nit-picking going on here though.  All-female army?  An idea that's no dafter than Necromunda Eschers, 40k Sisters of Battle, or the Hinterlands range.  Or, for that matter, half the science-fantasy minis that dominate our hobby.

Sculpting style?  I reckon that Kev White is one of the best out there, but these are deliberately pin-up style, with long legs, slim waists and big guns.  See also - plenty of other minis lines.  I have Infinity characters that have similar proportions.  Realism is not the be-all and end-all in miniatures, indeed in many genres it's just another choice.

That's not an excuse for poor minis, but these are done well and consistently (well, what we've seen so far, and I'm incuding their previous stuff, which all looks decent).

Another bloody Kickstarter?  Seems to be working for plenty of companies and their customers.  Caveat emptor, very much so, but I've been chuffed with what I've picked up so far (and it's all painted).

Bit pricey?  Yeah.  Customer choice and all that though - a lot of people don't seem to mind.  I'd rather pay £20 for one mini that will be painted and played with than for 10 that will sit in a box in the attic.

[Dr Mathias]

Sculpting style?  I reckon that Kev White is one of the best out there, but these are deliberately pin-up style, with long legs, slim waists and big guns.  See also - plenty of other minis lines.  

I can't even begin to say how many times I've been painting a figure, and thinking "I wish Kev White had sculpted these" or "Too bad this wasn't done by Kev White". His stuff is highly detailed, but easily paintable.

I have the Raging Heroes Sci-Fi Blood Vestals and although I've not painted them, they're very nice sculpts and am looking forward to getting to them. I'm sure this new range of figures will be great too- stylized, which may or may not meet a person's needs or desires, but I think they will be high quality, crisp and clean unlike some other highly-touted ranges out there.

If you want realistic hard sci-fi females, I'm sure that the forthcoming Dreamforge figures will do the trick. The 'Ada' figure is suitably feminine, realistically so- but even so the new figures are going to piss some people off because the helmets are wrong, they're plastic, <insert reason> etc.  

Have patience people, realistic sci-fi chicks with weapons will arrive some day. I recall just a few short years ago asking for robed cultists without weapons, with revolvers, etc. Now its hard to keep up with the releases of them there's so many  

ETA: My wife wasn't put off by the Raging Heroes Kickstarter, all girl armies don't bother her at all, and a lot of other females with a particular vision of 'girl power' feel likewise. Not sure what that says honestly, just thought I'd mention it.

[eMills]

Sorry i touched your idol. I was trying to say my opinion, apparently when we're about saying something less orthodox people here get on fire.

Once again, i love HF miniatures, eh! But i don't consider them at the top just because they were the first. And i don't see why you should blame me for thinking that. That's inappropriate.

I don't think Vermis meant anything other than to show his extreme surprise at your point of view.

Technically speaking, as someone who has studied anatomy and kinesiology, Kev White is far, far superior a sculptor to most other miniature sculptors out there.  His anatomy and proportions suffer fewer distortions (and those are intentional from some of the comments that I have read from him) than Raging Heroes sculpts.  Plus, his depictions of movement and weight in miniature are second to none.

Stylistically speaking, people may or may not like his work.  To boil it down to a comparison that most people (in this hobby) can relate to: RH figures are GW with a heavy helping of Anime.  Kev is realistic with a dash of GW.

Some like one, some the other.  Some people like both.

~Eric

[Sangennaru]

Technically speaking, as someone who has studied anatomy and kinesiology, Kev White is far, far superior a sculptor to most other miniature sculptors out there.  His anatomy and proportions suffer fewer distortions (and those are intentional from some of the comments that I have read from him) than Raging Heroes sculpts.  Plus, his depictions of movement and weight in miniature are second to none.

Actually, that is my doubt about him:
all the characters have fat legs and arms, and cartoonish shapes and flat surfaces... But i respect your knowledge, probably it's just an effect of the small scale.

Some like one, some the other.  Some people like both.

I definitely do

[Conquistador]

I think it is all a matter of keeping perspective.

Those of us, ahem, of a certain age remember when Starguard (30+ years ago) really kicked off Science Fiction wargaming when they basically wasn't any such thing.  Reviresco miniatures were the rage in many areas and while some of them have come along well (1/144th WW1 aircraft) and some still have value - I use the Starguard Power Armor and Terran Imperium Trolls super Power Armor to fight "Bugs" - many of the sculpts (unchanged since then) have not aged well (basically anything "human" not in power Armor) at all, IMO.

The "realistic" versus "representative" discussion has raged since day 1, there was no "female armies" discussion because it was  the 1960s/1970s and essentially no one was sculpting them, the same rules mechanics issues were being debated with rancour on occasion, and the discussions of price (doubling the price from 25 cents to 50 cents almost started WW3) versus value existed then.

Compared to many figures today these far from as suggestive or near nudity attired as many that are out there now.  I hate to sound like a broken record but, at the end of the day buy what appeals and just shake your head at he figures your friends buy (as they do to your buying.)  While I have my opinions on stuff from miniatures to American Politics to the Culture Wars I frequently think we tend to act like physicians - view with alarm so you can point with pride - about way too much in life.  My Liberal friends and co-workers are simply   wrong, not evil, and they "mistakenly' believe    the same about me.    So it is with miniatures, I like 3/6 mm for armies and 25 mm or less for "single figure" games  (skirmish and RPG) while others won't consider anything under "28" mm;  styles of sculpting are even more individual evaluations.

Not getting into this KS but obviously others have different tastes and way more discretionary income than I do...  Which is not bad, just a choice.

Gracias,

Glenn

[Khurasan Miniatures]

another consideration: 39£ for four "heroes" is not that crazy, it is the same than the price of four characters from Avatars of War or from Tales of War. If you are looking for troops, of course, you should look at the various addons, 15$ for three troops is quite reasonable.

That's exactly the sort of market model I first referred to -- it's straight out of the GW playbook, basically.  Avatars was one of the earliest companies to make GW-type models (same basic sculpting style and for what are, let's face it, the same factions as in WFB) and they priced their heroes within the same range as GW.

And like GW, AoW (and now Raging Heroes) price the models based on their points value in the game.  So "man with sword" who is a 500 point hero could cost two to four times as much as the same model were he a 15 point grunt.  

The fact that these companies which are adopting GW's marketing model are also applying the same pricing and marketing style is hardly surprising.

Needless to say, I don't think anything wrong's being done here, not my point at all.  Whether the RH models are quality sculpts is entirely subjective (I actually like them myself as good examples of the cartoony GW aesthetic), but it seems objectively true they are designed in the 40k style and the line is structured to work with it as well (fitting into an IG list and even having the same types such as "Troops" and "Support").  This type of marketing is sunk so deep into gamer's attitudes that it's very easily transferable over to ranges other than GW's.  

I began miniature wargaming well before the advent of GW's integrated hobby marketing and have watched it grow, mostly with admiration, not the anger at the company one sometimes sees.  In fact, I'm wondering if that model isn't the only model going forward -- it could well be the lifeline that you need to get out of the money pit that has characterised the hobby for small companies for so long.

Of course, the problem with that is, you don't get to make exactly what you want to -- you have to work within that GW framework.  But just looking at the sales in a kickstarter like this one, it makes you feel a bit silly to be doing anything else really.

[Jonas]

Of course, the problem with that is, you don't get to make exactly what you want to -- you have to work within that GW framework.  But just looking at the sales in a kickstarter like this one, it makes you feel a bit silly to be doing anything else really.

I don't think it is silly to do what you want instead of following the money. I don't produce miniatures myself, but can kind of relate to problems anyway.

I play a lot of music and have all the time chosen to go my own way and never the money way. I doubt I could get rich playing music, but I am sure I could make more money on it than I do now, if I chose to adapt to the market instead of what I want to do for myself.

In the the end I hope it is more satisfying this way. As long as the bills are paid, there is a roof over my head and I get something to eat I guess it is enough for me so far.

But then again, I wouldn't think that these Raging Heroes guys do this just to make money, they probably do this because it is what they want to do and if they can make money at the same time, who is to blame them.

I hope it makes a bit sense and I am not just rambling here.

[mcfonz]

I suppose it comes down to what you want. GW has long been a commercial venture and had CEO's that are experts in business, economics and marketing and in many occasions no great fan of war games or miniatures.

As a small Indie sculptor or musician you can either do what you enjoy and sell it any which way you can or you make music you thing the big wigs want to hear in the hope you get signed and make miniatures/music for the commercial powers.

Sometimes you can be lucky and what you enjoy is exactly what the commercial types are looking for.

But tbh these are boring. I'm getting fed up with kick starters and I'm getting fed up with this sort of model. There are tons of them out there. They only fit with GW stuff or as a force of their own. Very little about them is particularly original and they borrow a lot from GW.

The music comparison works well. These are like the spice girls of the miniature world. They are a phase, a fad, a heavily commercialized product. And to be fair I'm being harsh, they are not designed to be sophisticated anatomically accurate or believable pieces, they are thoughtless fantastical miniatures.

[Vermis]

Man, Sangennaru. I dunno what would happen if I tried to insult you.

I'll go out on a limb and say it's not my opinion. Eric said it very well - I haven't had any formal education on this subject myself, but I've studied a little anatomy for mini-sculpting, and the cartoonier lot is not Hasslefree. Maybe some compromises for scale and casting considerations, but it's Raging Heroes who are following the superhero-comic playbook with overstretched legs, sucked-in waists, and so on. And like comic-book proportions, I'd say it's skewing some perceptions about what 'realistic' anatomy is.

Since I'm here: that's just part of what narks me about this kickstarter. They've got wonky proportions, but I'll bet RH and the backers don't care. They are very finely rendered, but I'll bet that's not the main USP of these for RH and the backers. They might fill a niche for female soldiers and please some with their 'girl power', but despite the kickstarter title I'll bet that's not what RH is relying on to pull in the backers.

You might say that they're more covered than other female minis out there; but when they open their kickstarter with this and this, I'd say that's a fairly weak excuse. Even the heavy trooper concepts, well-covered from head to toe, have breasts pushing out of their armour. What's that about? Considering the other concept -> render translations, what're they going to look like afterwards? Granted, Hasslefree has a bit of this as well, in some minis, but overall Kev scores another point.

So in a nutshell, TL;DR: the main aim of these is not to promote diversity, toughness, grrl power, or female soldiers - even a full army of them. It's to sell an army of pinups. An upscaled version of the most common of Raging Heroes' usual marketing ploys.
Yes, that's their prerogative, and they're mini-sellers not social activists; but I don't have to like it, and please don't help their meagre attempts at wool-pulling by making them out to be more noble than they are. I can't change the minds of everyone scuttling and clambering over eachother to throw money at these, but I can still say it irritates me that they're doing so; about other worthy - worthier - kickstarters and shops slowly scraping pledges and sales while hype, questionable promises, and the lowest common denominator send numbers skyrocketing once again. Not just about the bare-midriff brigade, specifically, but about the massive cashing in on GW's popularity; greed for more freebies and (ironically) money for freebies; and the ability to deliver. I've already heard rumblings in some corners about how difficult some of these might be to produce, and the strains it could cause. Maybe it won't happen this time, with this kickstarter, but somehow I don't expect Roginshirozz to buck the trend.

Not to begrudge anyone making a bit of dosh, but it's all starting to look a bit grubby and grasping. It's like one of the biggest contributions kickstarter's made to the wargaming hobby is to allow a bunch of mini-GWs to sprout up and take advantage of it. Whether this level and method of wargaming kickstarter is sustainable or even tolerable in the future, I have no idea. But I kind of hope not.

[Conquistador]

Fortunately about 90% of my "large"/small scale (25+ mm) figures are from the 1970s and 1980's (LWR Soldado are later I believe.)

Mostly I am filling niches (Meridian KS for my 'VSF "Spanish Sikhs" elite troopers') and are converting to 3 mm (or some older 6 mm) with new armies.

I have decided to not pay excessive amounts anymore ($60 for 6 Grenadier/Gamma World Power Armor has always been outside my 3rd sigma,) especially as I reduce my armies pending retirement.  Again, you like it that much then enjoy.  I am glad this is going well but i am thinking y=tha I glad I m not stating fresh in the hobby.

Gracias,

Glenn

slightly iconoclastic by personality...

[Lawful Evil]

...I frequently think we tend to act like physicians - view with alarm so you can point with pride - about way too much in life.  My Liberal friends and co-workers are simply   wrong, not evil, and they "mistakenly' believe    the same about me.    So it is with miniatures, I like 3/6 mm for armies and 25 mm or less for "single figure" games  (skirmish and RPG) while others won't consider anything under "28" mm;  styles of sculpting are even more individual evaluations.

Not getting into this KS but obviously others have different tastes and way more discretionary income than I do...  Which is not bad, just a choice.

Smartest thing said in this thread. Thanks Glenn.

[Momotaro]

Edit: Ah bugger it, who needs to rant about toy soldiers? Each to their own

[Ray Rivers]

The Walker is pretty cool:



Like I say, I like the minis, but I think they are probably too detailed for me to do a decent job painting them.

[Viper]

The Walker is pretty cool

Nonsense, look at her, all exposed on the front there! This is nothing but sexism and pandering to the immature young boys! I demand she gets a fully enclosed and armoured cock...pit this instant!

 

All joking aside there are a few of the miniatures coming out of this kickstarter that I am going to keep an eye on, basically any with semi-plausable looking power armour, but I'm not going to bite just for some nice concept art and 3d sculpt pictures. If they get some pictures up of a physical copy of any that I'm interested in and I still like them then I might have a word with my bank card.