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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: nic-e on 22 December 2013, 06:27:27 PM
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Just a quick legality question,
I want to use AT-43 walkers for my mantic corporation army, but considering that they can range from £20-£40 i worry i won't be able to afford the amount i need.
I have a lot of resin casting gear kicking around and thought that i could make some recasts of the walkers for personal use as it would save me an immense amount of money in the long run.
But I'm wondering how legal this is?
The company in question is gone,the miniatures are out of production and i have no idea who holds the IP rights, so would i be okay to do this and post my results online without breaking the law?
(I know the issue of recasting is a sensitive one that has been poked and prodded many times,but i couldn't find anything on the recasting of miniatures from a dead company.)
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For own use I would say yes but when you are bored of them I wouldn't sell them on ;) Just my thoughts, no idea of the legal side.
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For own use I would say yes but when you are bored of them I wouldn't sell them on ;) Just my thoughts, no idea of the legal side.
Whilst im sure there is a market for at-43 recasts i wouldn't have the time to sell them on,even if i wanted too. :)
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The company might be dead but its assets were sold and I would be surprised if the AT-43 properties were not sold to someone.
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The company might be dead but its assets were sold and I would be surprised if the AT-43 properties were not sold to someone.
This is why i want to know the legality of recasting the miniatures.
I'm sure someone owns the rights to them in some way, but with them being out of production and with there being no formal plans (that i know of) for them to be remade, i feel that recasting them SHOULD be okay without getting up anyones nose.
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It's definitely not ok, recasting without permission never is.
If you just did it without broadcasting it on a forum then no one's going know though. :?
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It's definitely not ok, recasting without permission never is.
If you just did it without broadcasting it on a forum then no one's going know though. :?
The point of this post was to figure out how legal it was and so decide if it would be okay for me to display my work at a later date without the possibility of upsetting whoever owned the rights should they come across my efforts.I'm deliberatley trying to ensure i don't end up stealing someones property.
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The point of this post was to figure out how legal it was and so decide if it would be okay for me to display my work at a later date without the possibility of upsetting whoever owned the rights should they come across my efforts.I'm deliberatley trying to ensure i don't end up stealing someones property.
Law varies by country. It is not legal in the UK for example, nor in the USA I *think*.
Law also varies according to media somewaht, with some rules around digital formats etc., at least in the UK. The point being that even though there may be some leeway with digital formats, the same is not necessarily wit other media.
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Law varies by country.
What he said. Not every country respects international copyright laws ... that's probably best left where it is, for fear of wandering into politics.
If you're serious about checking the legality, first of all I'd follow the paper trail as far as you can, first to see who bought the copyright (if anyone did) and see if they're selling the item. How would you do this? Pass, but I'd probably start with Companies House. If you find the copyright holder is no longer selling the item, they may give you express permission to recast for personal use if you ask nice ... or nic-e.
Of course, if the copyright itself has lapsed, you can do what you like with it.
As an aside, I just wasted five minutes of my life reading the ranting insanity on PMT about this subject. Dear Lord.
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As an aside, I just wasted five minutes of my life reading the ranting insanity on PMT about this subject. Dear Lord.
All good advice,i'll begin looking around.I shall see if i can get in touch with the artist (as i believe he is currently still working on dust) and see what he can tell me.
I suppose i could also contact the former rackham sculptors.
And yes ,this is why i wanted to avoid this being a general topic on recasting, because we have all had it a hundred times and it always just ends with a locked thread and some very angry posters.
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If you painted a 'copy' of the Mona Lisa and put it on your wall and say look I copied the Mona Lisa... no issue, if you put it on your wall and said, look I have the Mona Lisa, still no issue... If you copied the Mona Lisa and said its for sale, I painted it... no issue, If you said I have the Mona Lisa... Lights Bells Whistles. Thats for graphic ,literary, and such.
As for products. If you make it for yourself. No Issue. If you make it and someone wants to buy it... Big Issue in all countries including the USA since 2001 and 2010. The intellectual rights, production rights will be with a number of people. The intellectual rights may be with the designers sill, the production rights with who owned them and had permission from the designers. These can be transferred...
Cut a long story short... Make em, dont tell us - or - show us, and me for 1 will forget you even mentioned it.
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If you painted a 'copy' of the Mona Lisa and put it on your wall and say look I copied the Mona Lisa... no issue, if you put it on your wall and said, look I have the Mona Lisa, still no issue... If you copied the Mona Lisa and said its for sale, I painted it... no issue, If you said I have the Mona Lisa... Lights Bells Whistles. Thats for graphic ,literary, and such.
As for products. If you make it for yourself. No Issue. If you make it and someone wants to buy it... Big Issue in all countries including the USA since 2001 and 2010. The intellectual rights, production rights will be with a number of people. The intellectual rights may be with the designers sill, the production rights with who owned them and had permission from the designers. These can be transferred...
Cut a long story short... Make em, dont tell us - or - show us, and me for 1 will forget you even mentioned it.
so err on the side of caution or use bribery? got it.
As for the actual rights, i have quickly found that cyanide studios currently own the rights to AT-43 and confrontation.They apparently have no interest in AT-43 and only wanted confrontation when buying the rights.
The molds are all destroyed and the artist has no say in things (which makes me sad.)
I have contacted them to see what they say.if they tell me that they no longer have any interest in these rights or that they have run out, then I will get the resin ball rolling.If they redirect me to the current owner i shall put my begging ht back on and see how they feel.
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Homecasting a miniature for your own use is like hometaping a CD to put into your walkman was.
Technically it isn't legal but I wouldn't care really.
it's an enormous hassle but it would bring a lot of gratification if suppose.
And it's not like you're downloading films or music, or printing out copyrighted images from the internets at work. And don't you dare to photocopy anything from a book or a magazine!
That would be like, totally illegal. lol
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Homecasting a miniature for your own use is like hometaping a CD to put into your walkman was.
Technically it isn't legal but I wouldn't care really.
it's an enormous hassle but it would bring a lot of gratification if suppose.
And it's not like you're downloading films or music, or printing out copyrighted images from the internets at work. And don't you dare to photocopy anything from a book or a magazine!
That would be like, totally illegal. lol
Everything you just listed is something i have to do at college on a daily basis, in fact once a week i have to do casting of some sort, often of someone elses work ;D
Here's hoping cyanide tell me that they don't care about AT-43 and open the flood gates for us all ....
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If you gaze into a pool of slime you should expect to see disgusting little things wiggling in it. Goes with the territory. Whats more astounding is you actually found a topic about the Minis industry there! Has he added a talk about miniatures sub board?
Ugh. Slimy pool is right!
On the subject of recasting: I wouldn't do it. Couldn't do it. :)
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If you gaze into a pool of slime you should expect to see disgusting little things wiggling in it. Goes with the territory. Whats more astounding is you actually found a topic about the Minis industry there! Has he added a talk about miniatures sub board?
Not to make my own thread go off topic,but am i the only one who finds it next to impossible to read the miniatures page? The layout and formatting just go against every fiber of my being.
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As an aside to the aside - I have found TMP to be useful... but only when I'm googling a certain topic and one of the hits is a TMP topic. That gets me to a range/information I didn't know before.
But as to actually posting and engaging on there? Dear Lord, no.
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Homecasting a miniature for your own use is like hometaping a CD to put into your walkman was.
Technically it isn't legal but I wouldn't care really.
I believe that people are legally allowed to duplicate a CD or record for their own performance on a seperate device.
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Whats more astounding is you actually found a topic about the Minis industry there! Has he added a talk about miniatures sub board?
I hear he recently added it after people called for something to read other than posts by and about Tango.
On the original topic: I don't have very strong feelings about recasting OOP minis and less knowledge about the legality of it. Very interested to read about what you get back from Cyanide, though.
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I hear he recently added it after people called for something to read other than posts by and about Tango.
On the original topic: I don't have very strong feelings about recasting OOP minis and less knowledge about the legality of it. Very interested to read about what you get back from Cyanide, though.
I'll be sure to let you know.
Personally i feel that if no one is willing to produce the miniature that is in demand then someone should be free to step up and fill that demand,regardless of who is sitting on the rights.But the law is the law and I thought it'd be good to know what i'm getting into before i start posting pics of my army.
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It is totally illegal in most of europe, the us , canada and australia.
But I would not worry about it. Just do it. All you have to worry about is having them seized and the moulds destroyed. Im sure no one would be that draconian though.
Home recasting is a well documented hobby endevour, and I have never heard of anything bad happening to any one over it.
Its good practice for your mould making and casting skills, which leads to a higher appreciation of the professionals and so a greater value you will place on further purchases.
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It is totally illegal in most of europe, the us , canada and australia.
But I would not worry about it. Just do it. All you have to worry about is having them seized and the moulds destroyed. Im sure no one would be that draconian though.
Home recasting is a well documented hobby endevour, and I have never heard of anything bad happening to any one over it.
Its good practice for your mould making and casting skills, which leads to a higher appreciation of the professionals and so a greater value you will place on further purchases.
That's a nice way of looking at it, and it's reassuring to hear that from someone in the industry.
I highly doubt i will receive any reply from cyanide but at least on the off chance they do contact me i can say i at least tried.
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UK Copyright Service fact sheet (not that it is clear!)
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law (http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law)
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UK Copyright Service fact sheet (not that it is clear!)
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law (http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law)
Seems to be that the AT-43 should become public domain in just over a century (depending on how long the creators live).
Scurv,i have no reply to your post for the simple reason that it was so concise and well said that there is little i can add.
I really will have to see what response i get.If they tell me they have plans for the rights then i will simple have to face the prospect of intervention (however slim) but if they tell me they have no plans for them then i will be less inclined to worry as they are no longer filling to demand for the product they have the only rights to produce.
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I am not a lawyer but...
Any copyright on the Mona Lisa expired a long time before such laws existed.
Copyright does not expire like patents, nor can it be lost by common use like trademarks. It exists for a specified period after the creator's death. The problem now is big corporations lobbying to keep extending copyright on their creations (specifically, Disney and Mickey Mouse - it's unlikely, the way things are going, that anything created after Steamboat Willie will EVER see the public domain).
There are explicit exceptions for making a backup to CDs, academic research, parody and suchlike. Making copies of real, physical stuff is a denial of some future potential sale though.
I'd say that for home use, you're good to go - it's still illegal, but nobody will know. If you want to publish your work, buy the property. IIRC, the last word on AT-43 was that the moulds were rusting to uselessness in a shed in China.
I am still not a lawyer lol
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I am not a lawyer but...
Any copyright on the Mona Lisa expired a long time before such laws existed.
Copyright does not expire like patents, nor can it be lost by common use like trademarks. It exists for a specified period after the creator's death. The problem now is big corporations lobbying to keep extending copyright on their creations (specifically, Disney and Mickey Mouse - it's unlikely, the way things are going, that anything created after Steamboat Willie will EVER see the public domain).
There are explicit exceptions for making a backup to CDs, academic research, parody and suchlike. Making copies of real, physical stuff is a denial of some future potential sale though.
I'd say that for home use, you're good to go - it's still illegal, but nobody will know. If you want to publish your work, buy the property. IIRC, the last word on AT-43 was that the moulds were rusting to uselessness in a shed in China.
I am still not a lawyer lol
I heard they were destroyed.
(to my knowledge the Louvre has some sort of right of distribution for images of the mona lisa,so if you produce an officially licensed image of it some of it goes to them.not that anyone ever bothers licensing famous artwork for distribution in anything except books.)
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You lot be careful with all this talk of the Mona Lisa....I have the original in my kitchen and I will sue anyone who tries to copy it!
You have been warned!
:D
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You lot be careful with all this talk of the Mona Lisa....I have the original in my kitchen and I will sue anyone who tries to copy it!
You have been warned!
:D
I actually found a hand done oil copy of the mona lisa in a local charity shop once.(It was freaking awful!I was half tempted to buy it and hang it in my end of year show to see my painting tutor weep ;D)
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Copyright does not expire like patents...
It does. Which is why people like Disney have been working overtime to extend copyright deadlines in the US and EU.
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It does. Which is why people like Disney have been working overtime to extend copyright deadlines in the US and EU.
If you google copyright law this is one of the first things you'll find.
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Well for those interested I have news.cyanide got back to me with a very interesting little bit of information. Email reads
"Hi Nic,
I'm happy to say (from our point of view) that you have joined a list of
interested parties. We'll be sorting out the future of AT-43 in early
2014 and we certainly will be getting back to you. A precise date is
difficult, but it will definitely be within the 1st quarter.
Until then "Bonnes fêtes de fin d'année".
Regards"
So it seems the question has changed to how long am I willing to wait for something new and shiny.
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Great news. And a good opportunity to lock this thread, there is actually nothing to say any more about it apart from - it's illegal to recast the stuff of other people so don't do it.