Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Mitch K on 02 March 2014, 06:20:08 PM
-
First off I know "heraldry" isn't strictly the correct term but I can't think of another and I think it conveys the meaning.
I can't find anything that says what Strathclyde Welsh banners and/or shield designs might have been. Arguably, you could just leave them blank but where's the fun in that? lol
The pragmatic bit of my mind says "do something that looks like a combination of Sub-Roman and Pictish", but can anyone make any other suggestions?
Cheers,
M
-
First off I know "heraldry" isn't strictly the correct term but I can't think of another and I think it conveys the meaning.
I can't find anything that says what Strathclyde Welsh banners and/or shield designs might have been. Arguably, you could just leave them blank but where's the fun in that? lol
The pragmatic bit of my mind says "do something that looks like a combination of Sub-Roman and Pictish", but can anyone make any other suggestions?
Cheers,
M
What century?
Darrell.
-
I agree with the idea of using some Pictish elements, especially animals - stag, boar, bull, etc and I personally would add some Celtic crosses into the mix. This would look suitably 'Dark Ages'...
-
I agree with the idea of using some Pictish elements, especially animals - stag, boar, bull, etc and I personally would add some Celtic crosses into the mix. This would look suitably 'Dark Ages'...
Works for me! ;)
-
Get a couple of bottles of Fraoch and look at the labels for inspiration?
http://www.williamsbrosbrew.com/
Kelpie is quite decent too.
-
What century?
Darrell.
Good question. I would question the validity of the force in later contexts - by the time Northumbria has conquered what is now Cumbria, I wonder how this force fits in, given that later descriptions of Galwegian armies sounds nothing like the Strathclyde Welsh.
I'm punting for a 5th/6th Century maybe.
-
Get a couple of bottles of Fraoch and look at the labels for inspiration?
http://www.williamsbrosbrew.com/
Kelpie is quite decent too.
I seem to recall it really is quite tasty lol
-
'Arthurian'.
As in, white shields, red chi-rho symbols. Can't remember offhand which of the legendary dynasts was called 'Pesraut' (red-cloak) but it may have been the founder of Stathclyde (it was probably Lothian though).
Strathclyde was supposedly evangelised by Ninian from around AD 400. So in theory at least in the 5th-7th centuries it was a Christian kingdom. And it was 'British', never 'Pictish'. There are no Pictish symbol-stones in Strathclyde, and no Pictish place-names either ('Pitten-' placenames are found between Dunfermline and Inverness). It was as 'British' as Calleva or Corinium.
-
'Arthurian'.
As in, white shields, red chi-rho symbols. Can't remember offhand which of the legendary dynasts was called 'Pesraut' (red-cloak) but it may have been the founder of Stathclyde (it was probably Lothian though).
Strathclyde was supposedly evangelised by Ninian from around AD 400. So in theory at least in the 5th-7th centuries it was a Christian kingdom. And it was 'British', never 'Pictish'. There are no Pictish symbol-stones in Strathclyde, and no Pictish place-names either ('Pitten-' placenames are found between Dunfermline and Inverness). It was as 'British' as Calleva or Corinium.
So given the date of evangelism, the possibility of "insular Celtic" artwork couldn't be excluded? I realised it was a non-Pictish area. By the time in question the neighbours in that direction were Scotti, essentially. I guess. What I find confusing is that by the time you get to descriptions of "Wild Galwegian warbands", the more northern strand doesn't seem to resemble the "Strathclyde Welsh" as they have been described in the game, and post the Northumbrian supremacy in that area there seems to be little that sounds like this either.
I'm happy with basically "Arthurian" but I think I want to add a bit more simply to discriminate them from the rest of the "Sub-Roman rabble".
-
'Insular Celtic' hasn't really developed at this period. Pictish symbol-stones are one thing, and Hiberno-Norse interlace is much later. Columba doesn't arrive in Scotland until 563, and it's some time after that that the Book of Kells, the Northumbrian manuscript tradition and whatnot occur (Aidan dies in 651, Cuthbert in 687).
My feeling is that the Strathclyde British looked south; if that's the case they would regard themselves as 'com-brogi' (Cymry, Cumbrians), fellow-countrymen of the British south of the Hadrian's Wall, rather than having any connection with those north of Antonine's (whether Pictish or Scots).
What game is it that describes them (not that it matters much, as I don't know what any games say about anyone, this is entirely historical rather than gaming knowledge)?
I's been proposed (and refuted by others) that the foundation of the kingdoms of the North British was a deliberate act of policy in the late Empire involving alliances and possible even client-status; if this is the case (and there's no reason it needs to be in your game!) the rulers at least would regard themselves as 'Romans', or 'British' perhaps in the 6th century.
-
What game is it that describes them?
Saga, probably... ;)
-
More likely Dux Brit from Mitch K. :)
Saga, probably... ;)
-
Although Pictish, if you were to change the general design of these images to something more 'Celtic' then you're into a winner:
-
These are for Saga, but since I am well known for my frugality and wish to get the maximum possible use from anything I paint, they will probably see service in Dux Brit, Dux Bell and WAB too lol
I confess that whilst I like the concept of them in Saga I find the historical context of them slightly perplexing. But then I'm a residues biochemist, not a medievalist, so maybe it isn't too surprising o_o
I think, after due consideration, I'm going to go with a Chi-Rho theme, enlivened with a little bit of anachronistic pseudo-Celtic twiddling, just for the sheer hell of it.
Thanks guys - this has been really helpful. This is why we all come to this board!
Merry meet again,
M
-
For what it's worth a lot of later Welsh heraldry has a strong black & white colour bias!
I think that 'white shields' are a bit of a Celtic poetical convention too!
Dan Mersey's 'Glutter of Ravens' covers poetical content of military items quite well by analysing the mentions of items in the Gododdin (if my memory serves me well). Checking that (I think Outpost Wargames may still stock it?) might be a help?
-
For what it's worth a lot of later Welsh heraldry has a strong black & white colour bias!
I think that 'white shields' are a bit of a Celtic poetical convention too!
Dan Mersey's 'Glutter of Ravens' covers poetical content of military items quite well by analysing the mentions of items in the Gododdin (if my memory serves me well). Checking that (I think Outpost Wargames may still stock it?) might be a help?
Thanks for the reminder - I had forgotten Y Gododdin :o! My copy (Clancy's translation) is buried somewhere. I ought to give it similar weight to Beowulf!
-
There's not much description of kit as far as I remember, but Y Gododdin does rather back up my point that the intervallum kingdoms were 'British'.
Was 'Strathclyde' actually Strathclyde at this point, rather than Alt-Clud (or even 'Damnonia')? My understanding is it didn't become 'Strathclyde' until about AD580, when the capital was moved from Alt-Clud ('Rock of the Clyde' ie Dumbarton, 'Fort of the Britons') to the vicinity of Kentigern's church at Glasgow.
Julesav, I agree that white shields are something of a poetic convention, but they're a convention that seems to have passed over into gaming. My opening 'Arthurian' was intended to convey 'however your game system represents the British Kingdoms south of the Wall...'.
Mitch K, if you really want to distinguish your intervallum British from those south of Hadrian's Wall, there is one thing that could conceivably but also plausibly mark them out as 'future Scottish'. In the Prehistoric Gallery of the National Museum of Scotland is a small piece of cloth that has a notice next to it reading 'Scotland's first tartan?'. And the question-mark is there on the notice! It dates from the 3rd century AD (I think) in the vicinity of Falkirk (whether that was in 'Damnonian' or 'Votadinian' territory I'm not sure) and isn't very large but it's from a piece of cloth that looked something like this:
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm219/redorc01/simplecheque_zps2ea10524.png~original)
If you want something that says 'these British are not like the other British' then maybe you could make use of check-patterns.
-
Guys, I think the whole essence of this problem is what Red Orc said: "what was Strathclyde and when?". This area was highly dynamic in the time we are talking about, as Northumbria and Scotland (Alba) and later England start to coalesce and expand. In the context just of Saga we are talking about a force that faces everything from Carolingians to Normans, which never mind the geographic spread covers centuries of rapid change!
Let's leave on one side the probability of some of these matchups, and even then I think it's fair to say that if the "Strathclyde Welsh" had managed to survive as a readily distinguishable political/social polity over the whole period from AD410 to 1066 their appearance might have changed a bit...
Hence, I'm increasingly convinced that based on the width of the time frame involved here, there isn't a single right answer. I think I'll end up punting for Chi-Rho's, a bit of chequering and a touch (just a touch!!!) of Insular Celtic. Short of having a series of differently-painted "Strathclyde Welsh" armies to use against different enemies, I think this will work for me.
And no, I am not having a series of different Strathclyde Welsh armies! If I wanted a differently painted army for every ten year period, I'd be wargaming the20th century! lol
-
Guys, I think the whole essence of this problem is what Red Orc said: "what was Strathclyde and when?". This area was highly dynamic in the time we are talking about, as Northumbria and Scotland (Alba) and later England start to coalesce and expand. In the context just of Saga we are talking about a force that faces everything from Carolingians to Normans, which never mind the geographic spread covers centuries of rapid change!
Let's leave on one side the probability of some of these matchups, and even then I think it's fair to say that if the "Strathclyde Welsh" had managed to survive as a readily distinguishable political/social polity over the whole period from AD410 to 1066 their appearance might have changed a bit...
Hence, I'm increasingly convinced that based on the width of the time frame involved here, there isn't a single right answer. I think I'll end up punting for Chi-Rho's, a bit of chequering and a touch (just a touch!!!) of Insular Celtic. Short of having a series of differently-painted "Strathclyde Welsh" armies to use against different enemies, I think this will work for me.
And no, I am not having a series of different Strathclyde Welsh armies! If I wanted a differently painted army for every ten year period, I'd be wargaming the20th century! lol
When I painted up (a lot!) of Welsh for Gripping Beast I was asked to avoid checkers and go for something like this:
-
Lovely work!
-
Lovely work!
Thanks :).
Darrell.
-
If they were only Christianized in 400AD, some pagan imagery may well be present.
-
The Christainisation of Britain between the Walls is a somewhat legendary event. Some historians of the period (eg David Dumville) completely reject the narrative of 'Ninian' in anything like its received form.
If the suggestion that the intervallum kingdoms were established by Roman policy, however (either during the reign of Valentinian, or of Maximus) is accepted, then the rulers at least would likely have been Christian from 367 (or maybe 383) onwards.
-
The Christainisation of Britain between the Walls is a somewhat legendary event. Some historians of the period (eg David Dumville) completely reject the narrative of 'Ninian' in anything like its received form.
If the suggestion that the intervallum kingdoms were established by Roman policy, however (either during the reign of Valentinian, or of Maximus) is accepted, then the rulers at least would likely have been Christian from 367 (or maybe 383) onwards.
Sounds about right to me too.
Darrell.
-
Reading up on all this again, I was reminded that there's supposed to have been a 'Pagan revival' in Britain (especially around the Severn Estuary) in the late 4th century. If it's true (it's somewhat disputed - what isn't in the 5th century?) then it may have been the case that the Northern kingdoms were less Pagan at the beginning of the 5th century than areas further south!
-
Reading up on all this again, I was reminded that there's supposed to have been a 'Pagan revival' in Britain (especially around the Severn Estuary) in the late 4th century. If it's true (it's somewhat disputed - what isn't in the 5th century?) then it may have been the case that the Northern kingdoms were less Pagan at the beginning of the 5th century than areas further south!
A period where we have largely conflicting evidence, or else no evidence at all. What's to not like? lol No wonder people get confused. I'll keep my "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" reigned in, thanks to your input, and go with something that feels plausible - like I said above, Chi-Rho's and checks. With just a few twiddles because I can't resist totally :D
Thanks for your input - very useful, not just to me but to others I'm sure.
Merry meet again!
M
-
A period where we have largely conflicting evidence, or else no evidence at all. What's to not like? lol ...
A friend of mine told me that one of his history professors used to claim '"history" is what no-one has yet managed to disprove'. To which end, yeah, why not? Unless there's good evidence that something didn't happen (like, as far as we know the Kingdom of Strathclyde didn't have helicopters) then I think it's OK. It certainly doesn't strain plausibility to think that the 'North British' (I think the Welsh poems call them 'Gwyr y Gogledd', 'the Men of the North'?) may have mixed Christian and 'barbarian' motifs, and possibly thrown in some checky cloth too.