Strathclyde Welsh "Heraldry" Question

[Mitch K]

For what it's worth a lot of later Welsh heraldry has a strong black & white colour bias!

I think that 'white shields' are a bit of a Celtic poetical convention too!

Dan Mersey's 'Glutter of Ravens' covers poetical content of military items quite well by analysing the mentions of items in the Gododdin (if my memory serves me well). Checking that (I think Outpost Wargames may still stock it?) might be a help?

Thanks for the reminder - I had forgotten Y Gododdin  ! My copy (Clancy's translation) is buried somewhere. I ought to give it similar weight to Beowulf!

[Red Orc]

There's not much description of kit as far as I remember, but Y Gododdin does rather back up my point that the intervallum kingdoms were 'British'.

Was 'Strathclyde' actually Strathclyde at this point, rather than Alt-Clud (or even 'Damnonia')? My understanding is it didn't become 'Strathclyde' until about AD580, when the capital was moved from Alt-Clud ('Rock of the Clyde' ie Dumbarton, 'Fort of the Britons') to the vicinity of Kentigern's church at Glasgow.

Julesav, I agree that white shields are something of a poetic convention, but they're a convention that seems to have passed over into gaming. My opening 'Arthurian' was intended to convey 'however your game system represents the British Kingdoms south of the Wall...'.

Mitch K, if you really want to distinguish your intervallum British from those south of Hadrian's Wall, there is one thing that could conceivably but also plausibly mark them out as 'future Scottish'. In the Prehistoric Gallery of the National Museum of Scotland is a small piece of cloth that has a notice next to it reading 'Scotland's first tartan?'. And the question-mark is there on the notice! It dates from the 3rd century AD (I think) in the vicinity of Falkirk (whether that was in 'Damnonian' or 'Votadinian' territory I'm not sure) and isn't very large but it's from a piece of cloth that looked something like this:



If you want something that says 'these British are not like the other British' then maybe you could make use of check-patterns.

[Mitch K]

Guys, I think the whole essence of this problem is what Red Orc said: "what was Strathclyde and when?". This area was highly dynamic in the time we are talking about, as Northumbria and Scotland (Alba) and later England start to coalesce and expand. In the context just of Saga we are talking about a force that faces everything from Carolingians to Normans, which never mind the geographic spread covers centuries of rapid change!

Let's leave on one side the probability of some of these matchups, and even then I think it's fair to say that if the "Strathclyde Welsh" had managed to survive as a readily distinguishable political/social polity over the whole period from AD410 to 1066 their appearance might have changed a bit...

Hence, I'm increasingly convinced that based on the width of the time frame involved here, there isn't a single right answer.  I think I'll end up punting for Chi-Rho's, a bit of chequering and a touch (just a touch!!!) of Insular Celtic. Short of having a series of differently-painted "Strathclyde Welsh" armies to use against different enemies, I think this will work for me.

And no, I am not having a series of different Strathclyde Welsh armies! If I wanted a differently painted army for every ten year period, I'd be wargaming the20th century!

[Atheling]

Guys, I think the whole essence of this problem is what Red Orc said: "what was Strathclyde and when?". This area was highly dynamic in the time we are talking about, as Northumbria and Scotland (Alba) and later England start to coalesce and expand. In the context just of Saga we are talking about a force that faces everything from Carolingians to Normans, which never mind the geographic spread covers centuries of rapid change!

Let's leave on one side the probability of some of these matchups, and even then I think it's fair to say that if the "Strathclyde Welsh" had managed to survive as a readily distinguishable political/social polity over the whole period from AD410 to 1066 their appearance might have changed a bit...

Hence, I'm increasingly convinced that based on the width of the time frame involved here, there isn't a single right answer.  I think I'll end up punting for Chi-Rho's, a bit of chequering and a touch (just a touch!!!) of Insular Celtic. Short of having a series of differently-painted "Strathclyde Welsh" armies to use against different enemies, I think this will work for me.

And no, I am not having a series of different Strathclyde Welsh armies! If I wanted a differently painted army for every ten year period, I'd be wargaming the20th century!

When I painted up (a lot!) of Welsh for Gripping Beast I was asked to avoid checkers and go for something like this:

[Mitch K]

Lovely work!

[Atheling]

Lovely work!

Thanks  .

Darrell.

[huevans]

If they were only Christianized in 400AD, some pagan imagery may well be present.

[Red Orc]

The Christainisation of Britain between the Walls is a somewhat legendary event. Some historians of the period (eg David Dumville) completely reject the narrative of 'Ninian' in anything like its received form.

If the suggestion that the intervallum kingdoms were established by Roman policy, however (either during the reign of Valentinian, or of Maximus) is accepted, then the rulers at least would likely have been Christian from 367 (or maybe 383) onwards.

[Atheling]

The Christainisation of Britain between the Walls is a somewhat legendary event. Some historians of the period (eg David Dumville) completely reject the narrative of 'Ninian' in anything like its received form.

If the suggestion that the intervallum kingdoms were established by Roman policy, however (either during the reign of Valentinian, or of Maximus) is accepted, then the rulers at least would likely have been Christian from 367 (or maybe 383) onwards.

Sounds about right to me too.

Darrell.

[Red Orc]

Reading up on all this again, I was reminded that there's supposed to have been a 'Pagan revival' in Britain (especially around the Severn Estuary) in the late 4th century. If it's true (it's somewhat disputed - what isn't in the 5th century?) then it may have been the case that the Northern kingdoms were less Pagan at the beginning of the 5th century than areas further south!

[Mitch K]

Reading up on all this again, I was reminded that there's supposed to have been a 'Pagan revival' in Britain (especially around the Severn Estuary) in the late 4th century. If it's true (it's somewhat disputed - what isn't in the 5th century?) then it may have been the case that the Northern kingdoms were less Pagan at the beginning of the 5th century than areas further south!

A period where we have largely conflicting evidence, or else no evidence at all. What's to not like? No wonder people get confused. I'll keep my "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" reigned in, thanks to your input, and go with something that feels plausible - like I said above, Chi-Rho's and checks. With just a few twiddles because I can't resist totally

Thanks for your input - very useful, not just to me but to others I'm sure.

Merry meet again!

M

[Red Orc]

A period where we have largely conflicting evidence, or else no evidence at all. What's to not like? ...

A friend of mine told me that one of his history professors used to claim '"history" is what no-one has yet managed to disprove'. To which end, yeah, why not? Unless there's good evidence that something didn't happen (like, as far as we know the Kingdom of Strathclyde didn't have helicopters) then I think it's OK. It certainly doesn't strain plausibility to think that the 'North British' (I think the Welsh poems call them 'Gwyr y Gogledd', 'the Men of the North'?) may have mixed Christian and 'barbarian' motifs, and possibly thrown in some checky cloth too.