Strathclyde Welsh "Heraldry" Question

[Mitch K]

First off I know "heraldry" isn't strictly the correct term but I can't think of another and I think it conveys the meaning.

I can't find anything that says what Strathclyde Welsh banners and/or shield designs might have been. Arguably, you could just leave them blank but where's the fun in that?

The pragmatic bit of my mind says "do something that looks like a combination of Sub-Roman and Pictish", but can  anyone make any other suggestions?

Cheers,

M

[Atheling]

First off I know "heraldry" isn't strictly the correct term but I can't think of another and I think it conveys the meaning.

I can't find anything that says what Strathclyde Welsh banners and/or shield designs might have been. Arguably, you could just leave them blank but where's the fun in that?

The pragmatic bit of my mind says "do something that looks like a combination of Sub-Roman and Pictish", but can  anyone make any other suggestions?

Cheers,

M

What century?

Darrell.

[guitarheroandy]

I agree with the idea of using some Pictish elements, especially animals - stag, boar, bull, etc and I personally would add some Celtic crosses into the mix. This would look suitably 'Dark Ages'...

[Mitch K]

I agree with the idea of using some Pictish elements, especially animals - stag, boar, bull, etc and I personally would add some Celtic crosses into the mix. This would look suitably 'Dark Ages'...

Works for me!

[fastolfrus]

Get a couple of bottles of Fraoch and look at the labels for inspiration?

http://www.williamsbrosbrew.com/

Kelpie is quite decent too.

[Mitch K]

What century?

Darrell.

Good question. I would question the validity of the force in later contexts - by the time Northumbria has conquered what is now Cumbria, I wonder how this force fits in, given that later descriptions of Galwegian armies sounds nothing like the Strathclyde Welsh.

I'm punting for a 5th/6th Century maybe.

[Mitch K]

Get a couple of bottles of Fraoch and look at the labels for inspiration?

http://www.williamsbrosbrew.com/

Kelpie is quite decent too.

I seem to recall it really is quite tasty

[Red Orc]

'Arthurian'.

As in, white shields, red chi-rho symbols. Can't remember offhand which of the legendary dynasts was called 'Pesraut' (red-cloak) but it may have been the founder of Stathclyde (it was probably Lothian though).

Strathclyde was supposedly evangelised by Ninian from around AD 400. So in theory at least in the 5th-7th centuries it was a Christian kingdom. And it was 'British', never 'Pictish'. There are no Pictish symbol-stones in Strathclyde, and no Pictish place-names either ('Pitten-' placenames are found between Dunfermline and Inverness). It was as 'British' as Calleva or Corinium.

[Mitch K]

'Arthurian'.

As in, white shields, red chi-rho symbols. Can't remember offhand which of the legendary dynasts was called 'Pesraut' (red-cloak) but it may have been the founder of Stathclyde (it was probably Lothian though).

Strathclyde was supposedly evangelised by Ninian from around AD 400. So in theory at least in the 5th-7th centuries it was a Christian kingdom. And it was 'British', never 'Pictish'. There are no Pictish symbol-stones in Strathclyde, and no Pictish place-names either ('Pitten-' placenames are found between Dunfermline and Inverness). It was as 'British' as Calleva or Corinium.

So given the date of evangelism, the possibility of "insular Celtic" artwork couldn't be excluded? I realised it was a non-Pictish area. By the time in question the neighbours in that direction were Scotti, essentially. I guess. What I find confusing is that by the time you get to descriptions of "Wild Galwegian warbands", the more northern strand doesn't seem to resemble the "Strathclyde Welsh" as they have been described in the game, and post the Northumbrian supremacy in that area there seems to be little that sounds like this either.

I'm happy with basically "Arthurian" but I think I want to add a bit more simply to discriminate them from the rest of the "Sub-Roman rabble".

[Red Orc]

'Insular Celtic' hasn't really developed at this period. Pictish symbol-stones are one thing, and Hiberno-Norse interlace is much later. Columba doesn't arrive in Scotland until 563, and it's some time after that that the Book of Kells, the Northumbrian manuscript tradition and whatnot occur (Aidan dies in 651, Cuthbert in 687).

My feeling is that the Strathclyde British looked south; if that's the case they would regard themselves as 'com-brogi' (Cymry, Cumbrians), fellow-countrymen of the British south of the Hadrian's Wall, rather than having any connection with those north of Antonine's (whether Pictish or Scots).

What game is it that describes them (not that it matters much, as I don't know what any games say about anyone, this is entirely historical rather than gaming knowledge)?

I's been proposed (and refuted by others) that the foundation of the kingdoms of the North British was a deliberate act of policy in the late Empire involving alliances and possible even client-status; if this is the case (and there's no reason it needs to be in your game!) the rulers at least would regard themselves as 'Romans', or 'British' perhaps in the 6th century.

[Daeothar]

What game is it that describes them?

Saga, probably... 

[Poiter50]

More likely Dux Brit from Mitch K.

Saga, probably... 

[Atheling]

Although Pictish, if you were to change the general design of these images to something more 'Celtic' then you're into a winner:

[Mitch K]

These are for Saga, but since I am well known for my frugality and wish to get the maximum possible use from anything I paint, they will probably see service in Dux Brit, Dux Bell and WAB too

I confess that whilst I like the concept of them in Saga I find the historical context of them slightly perplexing. But then I'm a residues biochemist, not a medievalist, so maybe it isn't too surprising

I think, after due consideration, I'm going to go with a Chi-Rho theme, enlivened with a little bit of anachronistic pseudo-Celtic twiddling, just for the sheer hell of it.

Thanks guys - this has been really helpful. This is why we all come to this board!

Merry meet again,

M

[julesav]

For what it's worth a lot of later Welsh heraldry has a strong black & white colour bias!

I think that 'white shields' are a bit of a Celtic poetical convention too!

Dan Mersey's 'Glutter of Ravens' covers poetical content of military items quite well by analysing the mentions of items in the Gododdin (if my memory serves me well). Checking that (I think Outpost Wargames may still stock it?) might be a help?