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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Luddite on July 25, 2014, 10:19:11 AM
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Hi all,
So I'in a few gaming groups.
My boardgames group is firmly mixed gender and some sessions, the men are in the minority.
With my wargames groups, women are a rare breed indeed.
So a topic poped up recently that I've been chatting about and I'd love to hear opinions on here (especially from any female s present).
Anyway, the discussion was basically, why don't many girls/women play wargames?
One of my friends suggested that its becase there aren't really any armies 'for girls'.
What do you think?
What would an army 'for girls'even be?!
Is the fact that I'm even asking the question indicative of why women don't play much?
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I sell these pony figures which might arguably make a suitable army for 'the girls'.
http://www.slapminis.com/pewter-ponies-24-c.asp (http://www.slapminis.com/pewter-ponies-24-c.asp)
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I sell these pony figures which might arguably make a suitable army for 'the girls'.
http://www.slapminis.com/pewter-ponies-24-c.asp (http://www.slapminis.com/pewter-ponies-24-c.asp)
I know my daughter would like those :-)
When my 2 (8 yr old twins) set up my figures, she grabs all the cavalry.
G
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gonna draw on my psychology studies here and say it's the way girls are taught to play.
young girls have dolls, and create characters,mimic social interaction and just generally learn social play.
boys have toy soldiers and learn "large" play, creating scenarios rather than interactions, or play sport and learn conflict play, which promotes teamwork, but as a large group rather than 1 to 1 interaction.
so whiles roleplaying is more suited to the type of play girls are brought up with, wargaming isn't, not in the same way anyway.
It's easy to transfer skills learned playing in groups with other girls to roleplayoing than wargaming, which lacks that actual personal ability to interact.
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well, I would say that wargames are mostly about the mechanics and guys like to discuss these topics to death while playing, whereas girls are more interested in the narrative - I don't see DPhipps complaing about not enough girls.
So, make Your wargames more scenario and narrative oriented and less competitive or technical and You might have more fun - for two reasons.... ;)
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gonna draw on my psychology studies here and say it's the way girls are taught to play.
young girls have dolls, and create characters,mimic social interaction and just generally learn social play.
boys have toy soldiers and learn "large" play, creating scenarios rather than interactions, or play sport and learn conflict play, which promotes teamwork, but as a large group rather than 1 to 1 interaction.
so whiles roleplaying is more suited to the type of play girls are brought up with, wargaming isn't, not in the same way anyway.
It's easy to transfer skills learned playing in groups with other girls to roleplayoing than wargaming, which lacks that actual personal ability to interact.
Having twins, one of each, I was quite surprised to find that at a certain age they started doing the "typical boy and girl thing". In some areas it was quite sudden and at that stage certainly not to do with the way they were brought up and the toys they had.
Boys and girls ARE wired differently. That is a massive generalisation but it is true.
G
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Having twins, one of each, I was quite surprised to find that at a certain age they started doing the "typical boy and girl thing". In some areas it was quite sudden and at that stage certainly not to do with the way they were brought up and the toys they had.
Boys and girls ARE wired differently. That is a massive generalisation but it is true.
G
I'm afraid children take their influence from alot of other places. they might have friends or peers who do the typical barbie and action man thing, or see it on tv, and it really does affect them. boys play aggressive resolution of conflict, girls play social interaction around conflict. this is what gets sold to them and it seems to weedle it's way in regardless of how much you try to keep stereotypes at the door.
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Having twins, one of each, I was quite surprised to find that at a certain age they started doing the "typical boy and girl thing". In some areas it was quite sudden and at that stage certainly not to do with the way they were brought up and the toys they had.
Boys and girls ARE wired differently. That is a massive generalisation but it is true.
G
I don't know, girls and boys are obviously slightly different generally but my two will be happy to at least join in with one anothers activities.
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I'm afraid children take their influence from alot of other places. they might have friends or peers who do the typical barbie and action man thing, or see it on tv, and it really does affect them. boys play aggressive resolution of conflict, girls play social interaction around conflict. this is what gets sold to them and it seems to weedle it's way in regardless of how much you try to keep stereotypes at the door.
I don't disagree with that at all, but they are also influenced by the fact that they are male or female.
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I don't disagree with that at all, but they are also influenced by the fact that they are male or female.
Aye,that too :D
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Gender is a social construct, the neurobiological difference between girls and boys is negligible (says the psychologist(that's me))!
Then why do not girls play wargames?
My guess would be that the wargaming community isn't very welcoming to girls/women. The portrayal of women in most wargame settings are awful and the language I've met at different gaming stores/conventions/etc. is horrible!
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Gender is a social construct, the neurobiological difference between girls and boys is negligible (says the psychologist(that's me))!
Then why do not girls play wargames?
My guess would be that the wargaming community isn't very welcoming to girls/women. The portrayal of women in most wargame settings are awful and the language I've met at different gaming stores/conventions/etc. is horrible!
This too! i have already told my story regarding my girlfriend coming into my flgs with me in another thread
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Elves?
On a serious note I think the lack of heroines in a lot of wargames settings causes a problem. The majority of wargames brush over any female involvement. Positive female role models are hard to come by in wargames.
Can't think of many
Fantasy there is some
Eowyn in LOTR.
Various Warmachine people (but often female stereotypes)
Historically you really struggle
Joan of Arc?
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My Mrs is a deifinte sci-fi and fantasy fan - although she seldom plays, she frequently buys and paints tyranids, eldar, Necrons, Lizardmen and keeps trying to filch my Quar. She also has a fairly extensive collection of 'movie/TV characters' - Riddick, the Firefly crew, assorted Dr Who regenerations, etc....
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I think you are asking the wrong question.
Try what GAMES would girls like to play.
I think the sticking point is rules and style of games over girls don't want to wargame.
Yep.
Despite being a rare breed, it's amazing how many more ladies seem to play Malifaux than 40k (at least, judging by photos of tourneys and people posting on relevant games forums). I think it is exactly as you say that different games appeal to different people.
In fact, at a more local level, we have a mixed boardgaming group, and there are some games that just don't appeal as much to the ladies as others (and vice-versa).
So if you don't see many female wargamers, maybe there just aren't many wargames that are really intended to cater for them?
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I think the gender preferences would definately point to a length answer, blue for boys pink for girls stereotyping etc.
My daughters dabbled with greek gods and also liked splintered light minis as in Redwall books they were reading at the time, they also enjoyed zombie games.
But you have to think what their peers are doing which will more than likely not fit in with those hence the dabble in wargames rather than it becoming a hobby.
An interesting change which to be honest I cant see has been over the last 20 years or so the move certainly in my circle of friends for women to start supporting football teams etc, whether genuine or going with the flow because hubby is a football fan I am not sure. Wargaming may have similar appeal in that respect
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My guess would be that the wargaming community isn't very welcoming to girls/women. The portrayal of women in most wargame settings are awful and the language I've met at different gaming stores/conventions/etc. is horrible!
Yep. Behavior would suggest we obviously don't want them there.
Look adults have a lot to do with this. Dad wants his boy to play football, and praises him when they do. Mom's want their daughter to learn how to dance, and praise them when they do.
In fact, if we want to break stereotypes we need to praise our children in what ever venture they might find interest. A good friend of ours has 2 male twins (age 5) and a daughter aged 11. The daughter took to playing football this year and I make a point of asking her how she is doing whenever I see her.
Folks need to ... well, grow up.
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My daughters gravitate to female figures, animals and children. I have made it a point in recent years to collect and paint small warbands that they are prone to relate to: Crooked Dice's Savage School Girls, the kid super-hero team "Power Pack", Tarzan-Jane-animal allies, Fox Force Five, the Cave Girls, etc. They like to dig them out between games and look at them or play dollhouse type games on by spare office table. My 7-yr old loves her 'steam-o bull' (mechanical minotaur) with Amazon archer allies.
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Maybe its all in the title.
"Wargames". War is typically/historically fought by men.
Thus wargaming is played by a more male oriented audience.
I wonder what Wolfgirl or Jevenkah (or every other female LAFer i have missed) have to say about this.
However, following threads by both, they belong to a deep,d scenario based campaign style game systems with regular players and games and support from family.
Whereas, often I line up my troops and my friend lines up his and we fight to the death with little to no correlation or linkages between games.
Perhaps being ogled and drooled over has stopped some women from entering wargames stores but the language some women i know possess could make sailors blush. lol
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Girls are about communication and social interaction. They tend to develop language and inter-personal skills faster.
Boys are about personal goals and their self. They tend to develop coordination and movement skills faster.
Generalisations of course, because real humans are a little bit of everything and outside influences will always have their say, but from the womb and the development of the brain it's biology, not psychology.
From that it would suggest women would be more likely to game, not less. Having said that, perhaps the natural male aggression and tendency to compete leads us to play more games against other people.
Q. Why do girls wear make-up and perfume?
A. Because they're ugly and they smell.
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oh, if only everyone would understand wargaming as social interaction......
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Isn't the answer to the question "Armies for girls?" obvious? Elves, and goth girls play Dark elves. This also explains the parsity of female players as the extreme disparity in gender gaming choices puts them all off. ;)
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oh, if only everyone would understand wargaming as social interaction......
We know it is, but it's the sort of interaction that males are taught more of , being conflict and dominance based.
rpg's are more to do with team work, social structure and navigating and managing relationships between people.
i think really it's a big mixture of things that stops women engaging in wargaming , and the reasons are probably as diverse as the women themselves.
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I much prefer to play cooperatively than competitively. It's not so much how I grew up (I have three older brothers and we all played and fought together) as it is my personality. I like cooperation. Role-playing games allow for that cooperation much more so than wargames. The same holds true for board games -- Arkham Horror allows cooperation and I like it better than Monopoly, where the point is to screw everyone else up.
A nice thing about mweaver and his brother is that they created a number of Mordheim scenarios that are cooperative. I like Mordheim when I'm working toward a goal alongside a friend, rather than against a friend.
What faction I play makes no difference to me, as long I am in a cooperative game. (To be strictly honest, I'll pick the one sans bimbos in bikinis (or less) if I have a choice. I know how much a smack to the boobs hurts; I'd rather pick a faction where the women are interested in protecting themselves over titillating the guys.)
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Q. Why do girls wear make-up and perfume?
A. Because they're ugly and they smell.
Nailed it. lol
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I much prefer to play cooperatively than competitively. <snip>
That is why I like THW so much - the games are specifically designed for solo and cooperative play as much as competitively.
I can play my niche eras/genres solo, play my fringe games cooperatively with fellow fanatics, and play 'standard' (WW2, Napoleonic, Fantasy,) across the table with my competition oriented friends.
Gracias,
Glenn
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I mentioned once before that my wife once had an Ork army. Then she went and married me instead. lol lol lol
'ere wot boyz I does wot me missus tellz me. dats how we play dem gamez round herez
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<snip>blue for boys pink for girls stereotyping etc.
<snip>
Which was reversed at one time.
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/when-did-girls-start-wearing-pink-1370097/
Gracias,
Glenn
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Jokes aside, I must say that I've seen a lot of women and girls play Pulp Alley in various AARs, etc.
It's still a competitive game, but it does have a very strong vibe of fun-and-storytelling being more important than any actual victory.
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Well, I play a lot of video games, and in the video gaming community this exact sort of issue has become a really big topic in the last few years. There's been lots of discussion, looking at statistics, culture etc. I think a lot of the insights from that would be equally valuable here.
The biggest thing is that, in the video game word, current stats show that roughly 40% of video gamers are female, and that things like violence or competition don't really seem to be a factor in whether or not a game or genre has a female audience. Female gamers have the illusion of being scarce on the ground, however, because both the fan communities and the corporate marketeers have a tendency to respond poorly to them; so many hide or downplay the fact that they're female when online. When you see a game with an actual hard-numbers rock-bottom female player percentage, it usually correlates to either the game itself or it's fan community having something about it that can be perceived as hostile to women or women gamers.
TL/DR: Psychological incompatibility with women in genre or mechanics appears to be an empirically flawed notion at best, but perceived hostility to and/or active dismissiveness of women can make a big difference. Most of the debate these days is over what kinds of elements or behavior reasonably constitute such hostility/dismissiveness.
I can't really speak to the reasons why you don't see as many female tabletop gamers (I'm afraid these boards are my main interaction with the community these days), but in light of the above, I feel pretty confident in believing they're a matter of culture, not biological bias.
I'd speculate that tabletop gaming may be perceived by the general public as something that's been mostly outmoded by computer gaming. Compounding this, while video gaming has become increasingly mainstream to the point where it now sometimes competes on the same level with movies and TV for the under 30 demographics, tabletop gaming has remained an entrenched niche of turbogeekery in the eyes of the general public. All concerns about the gaming community culture's welcoming of women aside, many women who in a better world might be interested may be preemptively turned off to the hobby sight unseen because of these things. In other words, any problems in getting women interested are likely greatly magnified by the general problems in getting any new blood interested.
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Similar to the above, the wife and I both play Magic and have for twenty years and for many years it was our primary hobby, though we've slowed down quite a lot now and we're wargaming more than we're playing cards (by the way, I don't mean to keep playing some sort of brag card where I'm saying "Look! My wife plays games!", just that we get both perspectives in my home).
Female players there are on the rise too, albeit gradually. For a long time, women made up no more than 10% of the population of the game and now it's probably closer to 20% of the playing population. But female representation at tournaments - which are the real big events - is vastly lower, maybe around two percent. So while it is a male-dominated game, it appears to be far more so than it really is.
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My niece used to play zombie games
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There probably aren't any armies 'for girls', and if there aren't any, then I don't think that's really the problem.
This too! i have already told my story regarding my girlfriend coming into my flgs with me in another thread
What's the story/where's the thread Nic-e?
My other half enjoys playing games, looking at miniatures, wants to learn to paint and really enjoys playing Discworld boardgames, but I'm fairly certain she would not enjoy most of the gaming groups I've been to, or game shops. Can't say that I have really to be honest, they tend to be pretty forbidding places, and if you're one of only a couple of women (or the only one) It can only be more so.
And there's a rather vociferous vote here against the chainmail bikini brigade...
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We have two girls in our regular gaming group, and while they both prefer roleplaying games, they will murder with a vengeance once they get the hang of a character in any wargame they're placed in.
If anything, they might be said to play "better" than us lads, because they take the part of the person in the game (and personally!) which leads to less metagaming and more KILL THEM! FOR CROM! FOR ODIN! FOR THE SHEER SATISFACTION!
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There probably aren't any armies 'for girls', and if there aren't any, then I don't think that's really the problem.
What's the story/where's the thread Nic-e?
My other half enjoys playing games, looking at miniatures, wants to learn to paint and really enjoys playing Discworld boardgames, but I'm fairly certain she would not enjoy most of the gaming groups I've been to, or game shops. Can't say that I have really to be honest, they tend to be pretty forbidding places, and if you're one of only a couple of women (or the only one) It can only be more so.
And there's a rather vociferous vote here against the chainmail bikini brigade...
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=68770.15
I would recount it here for you, but it would be cross thread double posting, and would be no fun for anyone :)
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I agree with everything said thusfar, which is to say, it's all true... at least to some degree.
Boys and girls are biologically different... but probably not enough to matter.
The different things society teaches girls impacts their interests... except when it doesn't.
Girls don't like to play the same way boys do... except the ones that do.
The most relevant thing, I think, is that in the end it comes down to the individual, and therefore: yes, you are asking the wrong question. Instead of asking about good armies "for girls", you need to find good armies "for Sarah and Danielle". Even moreso, you need to think about how they want to play; that means figuring out which game(s) might interest them, not just which factions. Think about the diversity of interests here on LAF. You're not going to sell me on 54mm Napoleonics, and it's not because I have anything against Prussians. There are plenty of people who hate silly-kiddie-Warhammer, and lots of others that would never touch stuffy-boring-WRG. (You can continue on here, with your own preferences and prejudices.) My point is this: will an army of Amazons and ponies will make the difference in whether or not they like playing Hail Caesar? Maybe, but maybe not.
A while ago, I wanted to diversify my gaming a bit, so I went through the LAF forums and thought about which bits interested me. I had a buddy of mine do the same thing, and then narrowed down the things that overlapped. There's a very good cross-section of wargaming represented here, even if it's not all equally popular, so if there's anything they'd possibly like in the wide world of wargames, you should be able to find it mentioned here somewhere.
So, maybe that's a good place to start?
- H8
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It's hard work but I'm slowly corrupting my girls :D
(http://www.germy.co.uk/images/playtest.jpg)
But I agree with some of what has been said. I spend most of my time fighting against the stereotypes imposed on them at every turn.
My girls like Steam Trains, Knights, Castles, Dragons and Stompy Robots. But they also like pretty dresses and being princesses.
I read something recently saying if their role models break the gender stereotypes they grow up with a more open approach to what they themselves are into.
They refer to my wargaming as Daddy's nerdy stuff and love to see what I'm up to. Long may it continue 8)
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My wife refers to my minis as "your little monsters." :D
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I think others have covered the topic rather well. I will chime in with my own view, which I think does echo some previous statements.
For myself the question isn't what army appeals to me, it is what game or better yet, how the game is presented. A straight up engagement battle of two armies doesn't usually interest me. But a story/reason/objective to it and the game can be that much more interesting. My favorite type of game is what I call adventure gaming. Think IHMN, Inquisitor, Super System, Fantastic Worlds, etc. Typically skirmish so you can get more personal with your force. Also there usually is an objective beside wiping out the opposing force(s) and the game is it's own story. Men are drawn to the visual, women like to have a connection :).
Granted I have been working on a 6mm 30k heresy era army. Which seems to go against what I mentioned above. But what even drew me to the project was reading the first four Horus Heresy novels. What was going on in the background with the main characters, what led to Horus' fall. How everything lined up leading to the battle of Istvaan III. How Saul Tarvitz, Garviel Loken and Tarik Torgaddon defied the traitors, not willing to sacrifice their beliefs and willing to die to delay Horus so word could reach the Emperor.
Other factors related but I won't go into are how guys act in groups, gaming stores, cheese cake female figures. Granted over all things have gotten a lot better with the embracing of geek culture.
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Sorry for being late to this interesting discussion - the topic is dear to my heart as my girlfriend is a war gamer. And a very good one, she beats me regularly, she plays much more aggressively than me. Also, she likes SAGA 'because of the brutality', as she said, so I don't think girls are per se more peaceful. However, she does like to have figures she can relate to, and that brings me to a question I have been thinking about a lot recently:
Why do historical figure manufacturers produce so little female warriors? There have been quite a lot of them in history, but 1. they are not covered by most mainstream military history and 2. they are not done as wargaming figures. You might find a figure of Joan of Arc or Boudica, but what about the female elite archers used by the Moors in 11th century Spain? How many SAGA Viking warbands contain female warriors? There were some very fascinating articles on this subject in one of the last issues of Medieval Warfare, and since than I have done some research on others.
Anyway, I think it would be great if figure manufacturers would acknowledge the role of women (leaders as well as rank-and-file) on historical battlefields (and also produce female figures that have realistic proportions and armor, my girlfriend has no interest in all those half naked 'Amazon' or whatever figures around).
Cheers,
Shandy
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<snip>
Why do historical figure manufacturers produce so little female warriors? There have been quite a lot of them in history, but 1. they are not covered by most mainstream military history and 2. they are not done as wargaming figures. You might find a figure of Joan of Arc or Boudica, but what about the female elite archers used by the Moors in 11th century Spain? How many SAGA Viking warbands contain female warriors? There were some very fascinating articles on this subject in one of the last issues of Medieval Warfare, and since than I have done some research on others.
Anyway, I think it would be great if figure manufacturers would acknowledge the role of women (leaders as well as rank-and-file) on historical battlefields (and also produce female figures that have realistic proportions and armor, my girlfriend has no interest in all those half naked 'Amazon' or whatever figures around).
Cheers,
Shandy
I think it depends on the historical army and even more so on the perception of the historical army. Some armies lend themselves to inclusion of female warriors where other executed women who infiltrated disguised as men.
Many armies quietly ignored individual women disguised as men if they were perceived as 'contributing' to the battle either fighting or supplying soldiers with "non-essentials" like alcohol, tobacco, food, or first aid (or a officer's... 'favorite',) but I would like to know how most table top armies bigger than squads/platoons would represent units of women in battle as opposed to disguised or openly female individual warriors. at a 1:10 or more ratio how many armies seriously had significantly larger than bodyguards units of women warriors historically? Some yes, but how common was it?
This would be especially important for battle scenarios rather than skirmish level forces.
And disguised females should look like men since they are in disguise, right?
Cantinières and Vivandières of the French Army and others - see above - are a completely different situation and would be single figure stands/bases.
Gracias,
Glenn
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although she seldom plays, she frequently buys and paints tyranids, eldar, Necrons, Lizardmen and keeps trying to filch my Quar.
Xander, you lucky bugger.
Maybe we should ask THIS girl what she thinks: http://www.youtube.com/user/thatterigirl
-Todd
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I think the sticking point is rules and style of games over girls don't want to wargame.
I agree, my domestic goddess plays and would rather play sci-fi or fantasy than historical.
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I think it depends on the historical army and even more so on the perception of the historical army. Some armies lend themselves to inclusion of female warriors where other executed women who infiltrated disguised as men.
[...]
This would be especially important for battle scenarios rather than skirmish level forces.
And disguised females should look like men since they are in disguise, right?
I don't want to hijack the thread, so just a short answer: You are right, it depends whom you want to portrait and at what level. I think there are three principal possibilities: 1. Leaders (Joan of Arc, Boudicca, Joanne the Flame etc.) - those are the easiest, just include them in the command stand. 2. Individual fighters or units. That depends, as you say, on the scale. I'm not saying that every army should include a female contingent, just that it would be interesting to explore the historical possibilities, e.g. the Dahomey women in colonial warfare. For skirmish, it depends: I think one female viking warrior in a SAGA warband would be plausible (at least as plausible as a berserker unit from a historical point of view :)). For SCW or WW2, female soldiers (in the international Brigades) or partisans would be plausible on a skirmish level and could be included in stands. The third possibility, the women in disguise as men, don't have to get special figures - you can just declare them :)
Your argument is a good one because it raises the question what we want to represent with our figures - there is a similar discussion about Wars of the Roses army composition in the medievals board. Basically, I think that apart from 1:1 skirmish games, our figures are always abstractions and tend to show what we would like to see on our table - e.g. units of mounted knights even if they probably played a very small role in historical battles. After all, the visual component is integral to miniature wargaming, otherwise we would use cardboard counters!
So I think there is an argument to be made for including women warriors in those representations - they have, after all, played an important part in some historical conflicts. Of course, I'm not arguing for including them for their own sake, but I'm really interested in giving the historical evidence space on our tables.
Cheers,
Shandy
P.S.: Sorry, the answer got longer than I intended. But I'm working on a project that addresses this topic, so I get easily carried away :)
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Other factors related but I won't go into are how guys act in groups, gaming stores, cheese cake female figures.
I always remember an AD&D character my brother once had, twenty odd years ago. She was a female warrior, big, sturdy and ugly, called Brunhild. He had a hell of a time finding a suitable model for her since all the female figures you could buy were right out of a booby calendar and apparently bought their armour so it could double as naughty swimwear.
Eventually after a long search he found a model of an operatic-style Valkyrie type dressed in a normal mail shirt, but it did open our eyes to the fact that a lot of the sculptors were indulging strange fantasies at the time (or perhaps responding to the buying public's wants ... who can tell).
Of course, that opens up another question altogether. Is this a sexist thing or simply the desire to produce figures that aspire to a physical 'ideal' (and display it) in the same way that most male barbarian models are gym-bunnies wearing fur underpants. It may well be a unisex phenomenon. I mean, how many girls like Buffy because she is able to be hard as nails, 'spunky' (something we haven't quite got a word for in Britain) and also physically appealing?
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Shandy,
Good post (and I will quit the unintentional hijack too after this) and a valid view/point. Inclusion of a female figure on a stand would certainly be a conversation/thought point with others.
Playing the historical forces I have, (IHMN/VSF, Fantasy, and even SF has more latitude,) I would be pressed to have a combat female but plenty of room for one on a command or character stand.
Gracias,
Glenn
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I always remember an AD&D character my brother once had, twenty odd years ago. She was a female warrior, big, sturdy and ugly, called Brunhild. He had a hell of a time finding a suitable model for her since all the female figures you could buy were right out of a booby calendar and apparently bought their armour so it could double as naughty swimwear.
Eventually after a long search he found a model of an operatic-style Valkyrie type dressed in a normal mail shirt, but it did open our eyes to the fact that a lot of the sculptors were indulging strange fantasies at the time (or perhaps responding to the buying public's wants ... who can tell).
Of course, that opens up another question altogether. Is this a sexist thing or simply the desire to produce figures that aspire to a physical 'ideal' (and display it) in the same way that most male barbarian models are gym-bunnies wearing fur underpants. It may well be a unisex phenomenon. I mean, how many girls like Buffy because she is able to be hard as nails, 'spunky' (something we haven't quite got a word for in Britain) and also physically appealing?
I think you answered your own question: You can get "regular-looking" male figures quite easily. Women you have to search quite hard for. Though it's certainly better now than it used to be.
If there's one thing I wish would go away, it's boob armour with cleavage. Of all the complaints about women in unrealistic kit, that's the one that bugs me.
Reason being, if you know ANYTHING about hard armour (and I expect quite a few folks on here do!), putting cleavage into an armour plate is basically the stupidest thing anyone could possibly do - that's not protection, that's a deathtrap! Modern kevlar armour, scales, chainmail, maaaaybe even boiled leather armour... those can get maybe get a pass even though it's still a bit silly (nothing wrong with being a little silly). But hard plate is insanity.
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Amusingly enough, back when WotC had the Star Wars license, there were about the same number of women as men for the game...including one lady who turned 85 on the day of one of the tournaments.
One of the people behind the running 40K group I've been part of since college was a girl who plays Tyranids...
A good chunk of it has more to do with perception at the moment, a lot of places have people who don't really want to share with outsiders, often meaning more with the women who come in to play, while a lot of places that had other differences either were already basically shamed open or collapsed. Add in the reverse of the situation also creating problems via a lot of girls getting their opinions of shops via media, and, well, that's not got quite a good impression either with the stereotypes..
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There are a lot of good answers here and very little I could add other than men and women are a lot more alike that you might think. Lets take topless amazons for example most women don't like them and they are historically incarnate now lets think about early Spartan armies they historically fought naked like Irish spear men and many other ancient units but you don't see units of troops swinging in the breeze as it where. You don't see hordes of penises because guys who play wargames don't want to see that you do see armies of boobs and girls who might like to play wargames don't want to see that so they don't play.
The statements about video gaming are apt bu lets include 2 more important issues about girls and modern culture, boardgames have become very popular with college and after college kids and 50% of board game players are women. Most board games are not cooperative. The cosplay movement, girls into comic books, TV shows anime, dressing up as these characters this movement is overwhelmingly women. Women even women who like comic books like clothes I would say the clothes a model is wearing is more important to a woman then men, the outfit reflects the character of the model and women identify better with model they feel have character (as do I really).
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There are a lot of good answers here and very little I could add other than men and women are a lot more alike that you might think. Lets take topless amazons for example most women don't like them and they are historically incarnate now lets think about early Spartan armies they historically fought naked like Irish spear men and many other ancient units but you don't see units of troops swinging in the breeze as it where. You don't see hordes of penises because guys who play wargames don't want to see that you do see armies of boobs and girls who might like to play wargames don't want to see that so they don't play.
The statements about video gaming are apt bu lets include 2 more important issues about girls and modern culture, boardgames have become very popular with college and after college kids and 50% of board game players are women. Most board games are not cooperative. The cosplay movement, girls into comic books, TV shows anime, dressing up as these characters this movement is overwhelmingly women. Women even women who like comic books like clothes I would say the clothes a model is wearing is more important to a woman then men, the outfit reflects the character of the model and women identify better with model they feel have character (as do I really).
I kind of want an army of butt nekked spartans now.
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You mean models or for real?
This brings to mind what my missus said when she found out that Marvel had decided to make Thor female. "Why the hell would they want to do that? Men don't want him to be a girl, and after seeing the film I really don't want him to be a girl!"
I thought this was some sort of hint, so I threw a claw hammer at her.
It didn't come back.
So far neither has she.
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You mean models or for real?
This brings to mind what my missus said when she found out that Marvel had decided to make Thor female. "Why the hell would they want to do that? en don't want him to be a girl, and after seeing the film I really don't want him to be a girl!"
I thought this was some sort of hint, so I threw a claw hammer at her.
It didn't come back.
So far neither has she.
I didn't get the thor thing..it's a ballsy move and could be pretty fun, but it is a tad odd.
Either is fine by me, although 28mm ones would be easier to manage and require much less body oil. (i can't be the only one who rolls dice oiled and covered in warpaint?....)
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You mean models or for real?
This brings to mind what my missus said when she found out that Marvel had decided to make Thor female. "Why the hell would they want to do that? en don't want him to be a girl, and after seeing the film I really don't want him to be a girl!"
I thought this was some sort of hint, so I threw a claw hammer at her.
It didn't come back.
So far neither has she.
As in figure time to throw another claw hammer!
@nic-e I've long considered a naked Celts army but it would offend the guy I play against so I haven't.
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lets think about early Spartan armies they historically fought naked like Irish spear men and many other ancient units
lol lol where did You get that one? Like artistic depictions and historiography were 1:1 documentaries...
The reason why in the romano-hellenistic tradition warriors were depicted without clothes or celts reported to attack naked in a frenzy is because of the concept of "heroic nudity", not because they did it for real. Sports was done in the nude, that is true, for the same reason. a narrative trope is not reality. al least not in warfare.
where, on the other hand, traditional tribesmen fight with little clothes on is because they run around like that anyway. The only reason we know about that is because it is still done or we have a good 19thC documentation about that.
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As in figure time to throw another claw hammer!
@nic-e I've long considered a naked Celts army but it would offend the guy I play against so I haven't.
does a 28mm scale set of male genitals make him feel inadequate?
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@nic-e I've long considered a naked Celts army but it would offend the guy I play against so I haven't.
So miniature genitals is offending but not playing war-games? I'm curious to know how is that so.
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So miniature genitals is offending but not playing war-games? I'm curious to know how is that so.
And curious you will remain. This little naked man comparison has been surprisingly apt in showing why wargaming specifically the historical chaps are very unappealing to women or possibly young people in general. Wargaming especially historical wargaming is a representational art where you are at best putting you are putting your (or a collective) own slant on the art of a long gone period & culture. Choosing to represent an early Greek army naked as their artists choose to is far more accurate than the many figures that have them in kilts. :) There are several naked male ancients & fantasy figures as well as naked aboriginals of several continents but they are out number hundreds to one against the naked female ancients, naked fantasy and even naked fantasy female aboriginals. They female figures show up on this forum and other places all the time even the most rabid "historical accuracy" usually has one or two of this hidden in the cupboard.
Taken as a whole this suggests to many women that wargaming is an old boys club that should die with the old boys.
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Taken as a whole this suggests to many women that wargaming is an old boys club that should die with the old boys.
there might be a certain truth in this......
still, there are newcomers in the hobby, not only old boys
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there might be a certain truth in this......
still, there are newcomers in the hobby, not only old boys
Does 19 count as a newcomer?
I've actually been collecting miniatures and playing tabletop games since i was 5 but i'll say for my part that i do find a lot of the cheesecake models to be in poor taste if they are out of context.
(i'm looking at you pinup kingdom death and infinity bootleg)
I would say that if i were to look at the hobby from the outside now and saw some of these female models i would be alot more put off because i'd feel like i couldn't share my new hobby with people without it looking like a creepy masturbatory aid.It's the same reason i never got into anime.
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Does 19 count as a newcomer?
I've actually been collecting miniatures and playing tabletop games since i was 5 but i'll say for my part that i do find a lot of the cheesecake models to be in poor taste if they are out of context.
(i'm looking at you pinup kingdom death and infinity bootleg)
I would say that if i were to look at the hobby from the outside now and saw some of these female models i would be alot more put off because i'd feel like i couldn't share my new hobby with people without it looking like a creepy masturbatory aid.It's the same reason i never got into anime.
These are excellent points I tried to make, I like most of the members here is a man in his 40's from a generation who like you started in their teens and grew up as an insular community that's now difficult for young people to get into. I play board games with my friend (same age as me) his 20 yrd son and his friends we were thinking about zombicide but I saw a new zomvior figure girl with her skirt up to her waist and her ass hanging out. This sort of thing is really getting out of hand. :-[ If miniatures stopped skewing so creepy a lot of girls your age would get into skirmish games.
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i do find a lot of the cheesecake models to be in poor taste
Ditto. It's never floated my boat beyond adolescent titillation, but neither do I feel outraged by nudity. It happened, it happens and if it's appropriate to the subject matter I'm unlikely to have an attack of the vapours over the odd wang or pair of tits (the recent Northstar Anne Bonny model being a case in point).
But then my interest is almost entirely for historical subjects. If I was into fantasy, then perhaps I'd accept the occasional bit of cheese as part of the genre, whether it be the barbarian in fur pants or the female in a tin bra. It's all very tongue in cheek and perhaps not to be taken seriously.
I tend not to think too deeply about these things and to paraphrase Freud, sometimes a model is just a model. I don't know how much my collection of toys projects my own values in the real world.
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Ditto. It's never floated my boat beyond adolescent titillation, but neither do I feel outraged by nudity. It happened, it happens and if it's appropriate to the subject matter I'm unlikely to have an attack of the vapours over the odd wang or pair of tits (the recent Northstar Anne Bonny model being a case in point).
But then my interest is almost entirely for historical subjects. If I was into fantasy, then perhaps I'd accept the occasional bit of cheese as part of the genre, whether it be the barbarian in fur pants or the female in a tin bra. It's all very tongue in cheek and perhaps not to be taken seriously.
I tend not to think too deeply about these things and to paraphrase Freud, sometimes a model is just a model. I don't know how much my collection of toys projects my own values in the real world.
If the model works in the setting it's made for or is a tasteful display piece (like the hasslefree nudes) then i will happily have them.
The zombiecide survivor really does stick out like a sore thumb doesn't she? I only just got my hands on a set of the figures and they are all practical and full of character, her character just so happens to be tits magee.
I also feel like "geek" culture is seen as just as abnormal as it ever was.shows like the big bang theory may boost the sales of star wars t shirts, but if you actually look at the characters and how they develop they are seen as zoo animals to be mocked and laughed at, and then normalized by the non freaks in their life.
The role of women in that show is to try and get rid of the nerd stuff and avoid being contaminated by it.
Geek culture in that show is still seen as a silly boys lifestyle and is presented as a polar opposite to the lifestyles of the female characters.the show may have made many people look into things they wouldn't have before, but it still gives the message that Nerdy stuff=stupid boy stuff and girls should try and avoid it, lest they be stricken with the curse.
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The zombiecide survivor really does stick out like a sore thumb doesn't she? I only just got my hands on a set of the figures and they are all practical and full of character, her character just so happens to be tits magee.
I also feel like "geek" culture is seen as just as abnormal as it ever was.shows like the big bang theory may boost the sales of star wars t shirts, but if you actually look at the characters and how they develop they are seen as zoo animals to be mocked and laughed at, and then normalized by the non freaks in their life.
I think that's true for that show but that's a network show still stuck in the 1980s. Consider the large female audiences for "The Walking Dead" and "Game of Thrones" those would be male only shows in the 1980s the mindset of the "Big Bang Theory" I often think the writers of that show are trapped in a time warp. This is off top we should get back to girls armies like wood elves. ;)
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Every time I saw Big Bang theory the characters were just so grating I had to turn it off right away. I have no idea how anyone watches that.
A friend of mine has described the show as "Geek blackface".
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I would call it "Friends" with nerds
I also never understood how anyone could watch "friends" or "Sex and the City" for that matter
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Girls are icky, and should be avoided.
I thoroughly enjoy The Big Bang Theory. So there.
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so do I, some of the episodes
strangely..
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so do I, some of the episodes
strangely..
Definitely some are better than others!
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[...]i'll say for my part that i do find a lot of the cheesecake models to be in poor taste if they are out of context.
(i'm looking at you pinup kingdom death and infinity bootleg)
But, in each of the cases you mention above, these are not intended to be gamed with - they are purely artistic pieces intended for display only.
And, in that context, how would they be any different to Life Drawing or depictions of nudes in more traditional forms of art like sculpture or paintings?
[...] i'd feel like i couldn't share my new hobby with people without it looking like a creepy masturbatory aid. It's the same reason i never got into anime.
Whilst I completely understand this*, it is still odd when you consider how sexualised things like music videos often are - would you be okay watching a music video with some friends? Lots of young people do, and often well inside the watershed.
What's socially acceptable seems to me to be just what other people are comfortable enough with - and nothing at all to do with right/wrong/morally correct/equality/etc.
*I simply couldn't face playing Red Alert 3, despite being a big fan of C&C previously. The overly-sexualised campiness of all the female protagonists was just too embarrassing to watch even when alone. Consequently, I gave up after completing only 2/3 of the SP campaign and never even bought the expansion. Never played MP or Co-op either.
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And, in that context, how would they be any different to Life Drawing or depictions of nudes in more traditional forms of art like sculpture or paintings?
Well, to be fair, there's still a wide spectrum of difference between a Renascence nude and a Penthouse centerfold, just in the pose and implied context. In fact, I'd say it isn't nudity that determines whether a model is a pin-up or not, but rather things like pose and style. There are actually any number of figures where the model is fully clothed, yet far more of a sexualized pin-up than another, fully nude model. And that's without getting into the distinction that while all pin-ups are sexualized by definition, not all sexualized images are pin-ups.
I'm OK with pin-ups in a general sense, as long as the implied context doesn't point in a rapey or similarly dehumanizing direction (I think the viewpoint that eroticism itself is dehumanizing says waaaaay creepier things about the people who believe it than it does about eroticism). I think keeping things in context in an actual game setting makes all the difference in the world though. There are a lot of those figures which I wouldn't bat an eye at if they were sitting on a shelf among someone's other display models, but on a tabletop they'd just look like a childish excuse. You can't just fudge up an excuse for a mini in a game to be naked and/or sexualized 'cause you want more smexxxy booby time in your day. It has to be something that not only legitimately makes sense, but which you wouldn't have to go out of your way explaining why it makes sense (being able to convince yourself is hardly a fair test).
In fact when I think about it, I think I'm defining "pin-up" specifically as a character that is sexualized in a way which is overtly and deliberately divorced from context. An image that has little or no internal world or logic, but which exists as an abstract expression of sexuality. There is no world in which a woman wearing nothing but chaps and stiletto heels is a cowgirl on the job (you could say "unless she's dressed for her a second job as a stripper", but that changes nothing: she's still portraying a reason-free abstraction of "erotic cowgirl-ness" on stage).
At the end of the day though, that's all academic. What the women in the room think is the only legitimate measure for the purposes of this discussion (see above parenthetical about convincing oneself).
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Thor movie with a female Thor?
sounds like Wonder Woman to me.
Why women no play war games? probably as its not really presented to them in a way they can get into it, using subjects/game fluff that does not appeal, and then they loose all interest, don't bother etc.
After all its just another tactical boardgame with coloured counters on it. often using dice as well, just like.. other boardgames.
I suspect, with the right kind of description/explanation from the boys, they would be much more inclined to try and play them. especially once they started winning.
And they would, at which point we would wish we never figured out how to get more girls playing in the first place.
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Context, context and er....oh, context!
An army of gritty, heavily armoured Imperial mercenaries marching out to battle the hordes of Nagash, and the female commander has a chain bikini and her spine curved at an angle that would shame a boomerang. Yeah right..
A horde of woad stained, naked fanatics screaming little 28mm war cries at their Roman opponents and amongst them are bare breasted, blood covered women waving axes around. A-ok.
It's how a female gamer wants to see herself represented in the avatar of her little figures. Power fantasy for women does not exist for the horny male gaze. It can do, but that's NOT the point of the exercise, more an occasional coincidence. Cheesecake is fine in context, and with the admission of what it is, a lust fantasy not a power fantasy.
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It's how a female gamer wants to see herself represented in the avatar of her little figures.
I hope that doesn't also apply to men. Realisation of the 'why' would see thousands of French Napoleonic armies put up on e-bay overnight... I mean, who would want their 'on-table representation' to be a cherubic vertically-challenged Corsican? And Dwarf and Elf armies, what's going on there?
;)
As to why more women don't play wargames? I couldn't possibly imagine being a guy (psychological research not withstanding) and with no insult implied, guys and girls who do play are perhaps not the best people to try to work it out, as essentially they both do find something in it that appeals to them. I think I would struggle to even explain why I play them as far as the psychology goes and anything I did offer is unlikely to be the 'real' motivation at the root of it all.
If I had to guess, I think that as someone mentioned earlier, it is likely to be something to do with the somewhat rigid structure of rules, army lists, points values, troop choices etc. In a general sense men like defined parameters and structures, while women prefer more open ones and the opportunity to imagine and create, hence the more numerous female rpg players.
Both my daughters are now adults and despite having been exposed to gaming and having been dragged off to shows on occasion, show no interest at all in playing either tabletop wargames or p&p rpgs. They will play Left for Dead, COD or similar 'boy' console games where there is a co-op play element, otherwise its solo sim-style games. Only one of them reads a lot and she would never touch a historical-based novel, nor fantasy (LOTR excepted), but reads sci-fi and horror. She also shares my love of old school sci-fi and horror.
By the same token, neither son-in-law has anything put a polite interest in tabletop gaming. One reads a lot and has an interest in politics and recent history, while the other is almost wholly devoted to FPS and similar console games and does not read.
Obviously as a whole we all have interests which coincide in various ways, but wargaming/rpgs are not on that list.
Take from that what you will. :)
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how nice! thie discussion is moving away from the pin-up dollies and towards the interesting fields of why wargamers play and how this might reflect on gender identities. very interesting!
there might be even some common ground to the other thread about the heritage of orphaned collections.
I my long "playing with miniatures" career I believe to have identified one strong incentive of the "reconstruction of a miniature world" aspect: it might be the fact that we control this mimetic construct and subdue it to our will. We argue about the visual aspects (sculpting, painting, clothing) and also about the rules, not to mention when two such "worlds" collide on the miniatures battlefield.
Too psychological for the common wargamer? I don't think so - make your own reflections and observations in the hobby or beyond (railway modelling perhaps?). I do not believe that chess players who are purely interested in the game project much background into their figure set.
If this impression of mine is shared, we can start to think how the female half of our population translates the isuue of control into a hobby ;)
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If this impression of mine is shared, we can start to think how the female half of our population translates the isuue of control into a hobby ;)
No offense intended to the women here but 'control" can radiate from either gender but the methodologies preferred by 'gender generically' may vary. All tools are available to all carpenters but some prefer saws or drills over hammers.
Gracias,
Glenn
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my point exactly :D
I should have added:
How comes that women rather often do not choose to reflect "control" in the wargaming hobby?
Or: is it the aspect of the control issue that reflects in wargaming, that leads to a diverging demographic in gender distribution in the hobby?
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How comes that women rather often do not choose to reflect "control" in the wargaming hobby?
Do we even know that's the case though? It seems a bit of a "blue sky" hypotheses to me.
Again, I'd point to video games, and the fact that a lot of these ideas about what women may or may not have psychological biases to/against (relative to men) have, if anything, been empirically disproven in that arena.
The only reasons I can think of as to why tabletop games would be different from video games in this regard all have to do with the in-person nature of tabletops, and how that effects player culture, rather than the nature or content of the games themselves.
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EX7Q9_xt2aU/TpNgeLdI4DI/AAAAAAAABE4/m7y6ySwYUdA/s1600/no+girls+allowed+sign.jpg)
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EX7Q9_xt2aU/TpNgeLdI4DI/AAAAAAAABE4/m7y6ySwYUdA/s1600/no+girls+allowed+sign.jpg)
At least at a sausage fest you're never short of bbq food.
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EX7Q9_xt2aU/TpNgeLdI4DI/AAAAAAAABE4/m7y6ySwYUdA/s1600/no+girls+allowed+sign.jpg)
I see you've noticed the sign on the door to GW's headquarters.
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I see you've noticed the sign on the door to GW's headquarters.
They don't want money from females? Why? Cooties?
;)
Gracias,
Glenn
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They don't want money from females? Why? Cooties?
;)
Gracias,
Glenn
Crap I just violated the "GW has it's own thread" rule. :o :'(
Sorry Moderators... :(
Gracias,
Glenn
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I think one-off jokes are fine so long as it doesn't devolve into the usual argy-bargy. :)
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I think one-off jokes are fine so long as it doesn't devolve into the usual argy-bargy. :)
I agree lol
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I did have a reply anyway, but I moved that to the GW argy-bargy thread. lol
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I was curious, and dug through my lead mountain.
I have a serious lack of bikini clad, sword/gun carrying bimbo models.
Which is to my mind not a bad thing. I must be getting old.er.
Granted, I reckon most of those big armoured knights and warriors etc are all wearing enchanted bikini tops and thongs under the full plate, who would know, and hey its extra protection, having those +2 nipple plates of arrow attraction isn't it?
That aside, it seems to come down to the usual:
Presentation
Context, context and er....oh, context!
Perception
Boobies
and of course the classic "not allowed".
Look how that was addressed by the online gaming industry, if there was a similar interest in doing so for our "little" hobby, it would be done, and maybe will, if a different company strategy is adopted, to gain access to the revenue that might be generated by doing so..
Meanwhile. If they want to be weird/play war games to, they are always welcome - I am more than happy to hide the bikini clad minis somewhere out of site if need be now I know I still have some.