Armies 'for girls'

[Cubs]

i do find a lot of the cheesecake models to be in poor taste

Ditto. It's never floated my boat beyond adolescent titillation, but neither do I feel outraged by nudity. It happened, it happens and if it's appropriate to the subject matter I'm unlikely to have an attack of the vapours over the odd wang or pair of tits (the recent Northstar Anne Bonny model being a case in point).

But then my interest is almost entirely for historical subjects. If I was into fantasy, then perhaps I'd accept the occasional bit of cheese as part of the genre, whether it be the barbarian in fur pants or the female in a tin bra. It's all very tongue in cheek and perhaps not to be taken seriously.

I tend not to think too deeply about these things and to paraphrase Freud, sometimes a model is just a model. I don't know how much my collection of toys projects my own values in the real world.  

[nic-e]

Ditto. It's never floated my boat beyond adolescent titillation, but neither do I feel outraged by nudity. It happened, it happens and if it's appropriate to the subject matter I'm unlikely to have an attack of the vapours over the odd wang or pair of tits (the recent Northstar Anne Bonny model being a case in point).

But then my interest is almost entirely for historical subjects. If I was into fantasy, then perhaps I'd accept the occasional bit of cheese as part of the genre, whether it be the barbarian in fur pants or the female in a tin bra. It's all very tongue in cheek and perhaps not to be taken seriously.

I tend not to think too deeply about these things and to paraphrase Freud, sometimes a model is just a model. I don't know how much my collection of toys projects my own values in the real world.  

If the model works in the setting it's made for or is a tasteful display piece (like the hasslefree nudes) then i will happily have them.

The zombiecide survivor really does stick out like a sore thumb doesn't she? I only just got my hands on a set of the figures and they are all practical and full of character, her character just so happens to be tits magee.

I also feel like "geek" culture is seen as just as abnormal as it ever was.shows like the big bang theory may boost the sales of  star wars t shirts, but if you actually look at the characters and how they develop they are seen as  zoo animals to be mocked and laughed at, and then normalized by the non freaks in their life.
The role of women in that show is to try and get rid of the nerd stuff and avoid being contaminated by it.

Geek culture in that show is still seen as a silly boys lifestyle and is presented as a polar opposite to the lifestyles of the female characters.the show may have made many people look into things they wouldn't have before, but it still gives the message that Nerdy stuff=stupid boy stuff and girls should try and avoid it, lest they be stricken with the curse.

[kidterminal]

The zombiecide survivor really does stick out like a sore thumb doesn't she? I only just got my hands on a set of the figures and they are all practical and full of character, her character just so happens to be tits magee.

I also feel like "geek" culture is seen as just as abnormal as it ever was.shows like the big bang theory may boost the sales of  star wars t shirts, but if you actually look at the characters and how they develop they are seen as  zoo animals to be mocked and laughed at, and then normalized by the non freaks in their life.

I think that's true for that show but that's a network show still stuck in the 1980s. Consider the large female audiences for "The Walking Dead" and "Game of Thrones" those would be male only shows in the 1980s the mindset of the "Big Bang Theory" I often think the writers of that show are trapped in a time warp. This is off top we should get back to girls armies like wood elves.

[FramFramson]

Every time I saw Big Bang theory the characters were just so grating I had to turn it off right away. I have no idea how anyone watches that.

A friend of mine has described the show as "Geek blackface".

[former user]

I would call it "Friends" with nerds
I also never understood how anyone could watch "friends" or "Sex and the City" for that matter

[grant]

Girls are icky, and should be avoided.

I thoroughly enjoy The Big Bang Theory. So there.

[former user]

so do I, some of the episodes

strangely..

[grant]

so do I, some of the episodes

strangely..

Definitely some are better than others!

[Major_Gilbear]

[...]i'll say for my part that i do find a lot of the cheesecake models to be in poor taste if they are out of context.
(i'm looking at you pinup kingdom death and infinity bootleg)

But, in each of the cases you mention above, these are not intended to be gamed with - they are purely artistic pieces intended for display only.

And, in that context, how would they be any different to Life Drawing or depictions of nudes in more traditional forms of art like sculpture or paintings?

[...] i'd feel like i couldn't share my new hobby with people without it looking like a creepy masturbatory aid. It's the same reason i never got into anime.

Whilst I completely understand this*, it is still odd when you consider how sexualised things like music videos often are - would you be okay watching a music video with some friends? Lots of young people do, and often well inside the watershed.

What's socially acceptable seems to me to be just what other people are comfortable enough with - and nothing at all to do with right/wrong/morally correct/equality/etc.
 
 
 
*I simply couldn't face playing Red Alert 3, despite being a big fan of C&C previously. The overly-sexualised campiness of all the female protagonists was just too embarrassing to watch even when alone. Consequently, I gave up after completing only 2/3 of the SP campaign and never even bought the expansion. Never played MP or Co-op either.

[Connectamabob]

And, in that context, how would they be any different to Life Drawing or depictions of nudes in more traditional forms of art like sculpture or paintings?

Well, to be fair, there's still a wide spectrum of difference between a Renascence nude and a Penthouse centerfold, just in the pose and implied context. In fact, I'd say it isn't nudity that determines whether a model is a pin-up or not, but rather things like pose and style. There are actually any number of figures where the model is fully clothed, yet far more of a sexualized pin-up than another, fully nude model. And that's without getting into the distinction that while all pin-ups are sexualized by definition, not all sexualized images are pin-ups.

I'm OK with pin-ups in a general sense, as long as the implied context doesn't point in a rapey or similarly dehumanizing direction (I think the viewpoint that eroticism itself is dehumanizing says waaaaay creepier things about the people who believe it than it does about eroticism). I think keeping things in context in an actual game setting makes all the difference in the world though. There are a lot of those figures which I wouldn't bat an eye at if they were sitting on a shelf among someone's other display models, but on a tabletop they'd just look like a childish excuse. You can't just fudge up an excuse for a mini in a game to be naked and/or sexualized 'cause you want more smexxxy booby time in your day. It has to be something that not only legitimately makes sense, but which you wouldn't have to go out of your way explaining why it makes sense (being able to convince yourself is hardly a fair test).

In fact when I think about it, I think I'm defining "pin-up" specifically as a character that is sexualized in a way which is overtly and deliberately divorced from context. An image that has little or no internal world or logic, but which exists as an abstract expression of sexuality. There is no world in which a woman wearing nothing but chaps and stiletto heels is a cowgirl on the job (you could say "unless she's dressed for her a second job as a stripper", but that changes nothing: she's still portraying a reason-free abstraction of "erotic cowgirl-ness" on stage).

At the end of the day though, that's all academic. What the women in the room think is the only legitimate measure for the purposes of this discussion (see above parenthetical about convincing oneself).

[Tactalvanic]

Thor movie with a female Thor?

sounds like Wonder Woman to me.

Why women no play war games? probably as its not really presented to them in a way they can get into it, using subjects/game fluff that does not appeal, and then they loose all interest, don't bother etc.

After all its just another tactical boardgame with coloured counters on it. often using dice as well, just like.. other boardgames.

I suspect, with the right kind of description/explanation from the boys, they would be much more inclined to try and play them. especially once they started winning.

And they would, at which point we would wish we never figured out how to get more  girls playing in the first place.

[Muddypaw]

Context, context and er....oh, context!

An army of gritty, heavily armoured Imperial mercenaries marching out to battle the hordes of Nagash, and the female commander has a chain bikini and her spine curved at an angle that would shame a boomerang. Yeah right..

A horde of woad stained, naked fanatics screaming little 28mm war cries at their Roman opponents and amongst them are bare breasted, blood covered women waving axes around. A-ok.

It's how a female gamer wants to see herself represented in the avatar of her little figures. Power fantasy for women does not exist for the horny male gaze. It can do, but that's NOT the point of the exercise, more an occasional coincidence. Cheesecake is fine in context, and with the admission of what it is, a lust fantasy not a power fantasy.

[Arlequín]

It's how a female gamer wants to see herself represented in the avatar of her little figures.

I hope that doesn't also apply to men. Realisation of the 'why' would see thousands of French Napoleonic armies put up on e-bay overnight... I mean, who would want their 'on-table representation' to be a cherubic vertically-challenged Corsican? And Dwarf and Elf armies, what's going on there?
  


As to why more women don't play wargames? I couldn't possibly imagine being a guy (psychological research not withstanding) and with no insult implied, guys and girls who do play are perhaps not the best people to try to work it out, as essentially they both do find something in it that appeals to them. I think I would struggle to even explain why I play them as far as the psychology goes and anything I did offer is unlikely to be the 'real' motivation at the root of it all.

If I had to guess, I think that as someone mentioned earlier, it is likely to be something to do with the somewhat rigid structure of rules, army lists, points values, troop choices etc. In a general sense men like defined parameters and structures, while women prefer more open ones and the opportunity to imagine and create, hence the more numerous female rpg players.

Both my daughters are now adults and despite having been exposed to gaming and having been dragged off to shows on occasion, show no interest at all in playing either tabletop wargames or p&p rpgs. They will play Left for Dead, COD or similar 'boy' console games where there is a co-op play element, otherwise its solo sim-style games. Only one of them reads a lot and she would never touch a historical-based novel, nor fantasy (LOTR excepted), but reads sci-fi and horror. She also shares my love of old school sci-fi and horror.

By the same token, neither son-in-law has anything put a polite interest in tabletop gaming. One reads a lot and has an interest in politics and recent history, while the other is almost wholly devoted to FPS and similar console games and does not read.

Obviously as a whole we all have interests which coincide in various ways, but wargaming/rpgs are not on that list.

Take from that what you will.  

[former user]

how nice! thie discussion is moving away from the pin-up dollies and towards the interesting fields of why wargamers play and how this might reflect on gender identities. very interesting!
there might be even some common ground to the other thread about the heritage of orphaned collections.

I my long "playing with miniatures" career I believe to have identified one strong incentive of the "reconstruction of a miniature world" aspect: it might be the fact that we control this mimetic construct and subdue it to our will. We argue about the visual aspects (sculpting, painting, clothing) and also about the rules, not to mention when two such "worlds"  collide on the miniatures battlefield.
Too psychological for the common wargamer? I don't think so - make your own reflections and observations in the hobby or beyond (railway modelling perhaps?). I do not believe that chess players who are purely interested in the game project much background into their figure set.

If this impression of mine is shared, we can start to think how the female half of our population translates the isuue of control into a hobby   

[Conquistador]

If this impression of mine is shared, we can start to think how the female half of our population translates the isuue of control into a hobby  

No offense intended to the women here but 'control" can radiate from either gender but the methodologies preferred by 'gender generically' may vary.  All tools are available to all carpenters but some prefer saws or drills over hammers.

Gracias,

Glenn