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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: flags_of_war on December 01, 2014, 11:30:11 PM
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Guys looking for some help. Im going to build a Lion Rampant force. Im looking to do some sort of German or Flemish mercenary force.
A friend is doing The White Comany and i was wondering if there was any similar famous force from Germany or Flanders? Im going to use the Claymore Casting figures so looking at late 1300 - early 1400.
Im wanting to do some flags and some heraldry etc but im unsure who i would pick?
Thoughts?
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Ill take that as no then :D
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About any other mercenary companies for that period i dont know but check Front Rank miniatures for a greater variety of minis both full plate armour and partial plate armour on their HYW range.
The new plastic Perry´s agincourt and their metals might be usefull also.
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I'd love to be of assistance, but I'm coming up empty myself as well. :'(
I've been looking for similar information about Brabancon mercenary groups during the HYW, but so far I've found none of note or notoriety. (Though the mercenaries of Brabant are mentioned in English and French sources, there is depressingly little in-depth information or even mention of them in sources from their area of origin...)
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You could look at the Ordenstaat of the Teutonic Knights. Apart from the bretheren themselves they frequently hired mercenaries or adventurers, among whom are some familar names: Henry, Duke of Lancaster in 1352; Jean de Grailly, Captal de Buch in 1357; Albert, Duke of Austria in 1377; Henry, Earl of Derby (future Henry IV) in 1390 with around 200 men and, at least three times, Marshall Boucicault of France led troops in the Teutonic armies.
As the names above suggest, French and English commanders were more frequently the leaders of such routier forces, emerging after Poiters and the associated truces of Bordeaux and Brettigny to generally loot and pillage France and join in any foreign 'crusade' that offered similar looting opportunities in Prussia, Spain or Italy. Often described as 'English', they usually consisted of English, Gascon, Germans, Navarrese, Spainards, Welsh and Scots. Indeed the Gascons can be identified in historical documents by the use of 'bourc' in their name, Le Bourc Camus, Le Bourc de Breteuil
etc (bourc meaning bastard - literally and metaphorically :)). One such company was known as the Compaigne des Batards. The companies were often only 100-200 strong, banding together only for major conflicts and often splitting up for the majority of the year. Individual leaders include Sir Robert Knollys, Perrot le Bearnois, Geoffrey Tetenoir, Seguin de Badefol, Sir John Aimery, Sir Silvester Bude, Arnaud de Cervole (known as the Archpriest), Sir Thomas de Grandison, Bernadet de la Salle and Jaques Tiquerel. John Hawkwood and the White Company was just one of many, who may have joined him or fought against him on the toss of a coin.
For purely Flemish forces, the White Hoods of Ghent were orginally established as a communal defence force but emerged in 1379 as a more mercenary force under Jan Youens (this might be a Flemish version of Robin Hood) who were described as 'men who loved war more than peace'. They only seem to have lasted 2 years, being virtually wiped out in 1381, but there's no reason why you can't assume they survived ;)
The Hussities might be a choice for the early to mid 1400's if you assume that the Taborite sect of the Hussities went wandering off after the death of Jan Hus.
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You could look at the Ordenstaat of the Teutonic Knights. Apart from the bretheren themselves they frequently hired mercenaries or adventurers, among whom are some familar names: Henry, Duke of Lancaster in 1352; Jean de Grailly, Captal de Buch in 1357; Albert, Duke of Austria in 1377; Henry, Earl of Derby (future Henry IV) in 1390 with around 200 men and, at least three times, Marshall Boucicault of France led troops in the Teutonic armies.
As the names above suggest, French and English commanders were more frequently the leaders of such routier forces, emerging after Poiters and the associated truces of Bordeaux and Brettigny to generally loot and pillage France and join in any foreign 'crusade' that offered similar looting opportunities in Prussia, Spain or Italy. Often described as 'English', they usually consisted of English, Gascon, Germans, Navarrese, Spainards, Welsh and Scots. Indeed the Gascons can be identified in historical documents by the use of 'bourc' in their name, Le Bourc Camus, Le Bourc de Breteuil
etc (bourc meaning bastard - literally and metaphorically :)). One such company was known as the Compaigne des Batards. The companies were often only 100-200 strong, banding together only for major conflicts and often splitting up for the majority of the year. Individual leaders include Sir Robert Knollys, Perrot le Bearnois, Geoffrey Tetenoir, Seguin de Badefol, Sir John Aimery, Sir Silvester Bude, Arnaud de Cervole (known as the Archpriest), Sir Thomas de Grandison, Bernadet de la Salle and Jaques Tiquerel. John Hawkwood and the White Company was just one of many, who may have joined him or fought against him on the toss of a coin.
For purely Flemish forces, the White Hoods of Ghent were orginally established as a communal defence force but emerged in 1379 as a more mercenary force under Jan Youens (this might be a Flemish version of Robin Hood) who were described as 'men who loved war more than peace'. They only seem to have lasted 2 years, being virtually wiped out in 1381, but there's no reason why you can't assume they survived ;)
The Hussities might be a choice for the early to mid 1400's if you assume that the Taborite sect of the Hussities went wandering off after the death of Jan Hus.
Thank you. mate. Now this is what i was looking for as this gives me something to go an look for. I have a few troops already painted in mostly Yellow and Black and i thinking that i might do Teutonic Knights and they guys can be some mercs from Saxony or something. This will allow me to do other troops to go with them.
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Just remember to take pictures to share with us. ::)
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I don't know if you know some german, but here is a link:
http://www.kriegsreisende.de/mittelalter.htm (http://www.kriegsreisende.de/mittelalter.htm)
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I don't know if you know some german, but here is a link:
http://www.kriegsreisende.de/mittelalter.htm (http://www.kriegsreisende.de/mittelalter.htm)
Cheers mate. Given my love for your dear City is there any infamous Knights or Families that i could look at doing a Retinue for from Hamburg or did they stick mostly to the sea.
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Great thread. Looking to do something similar using the new Perries set, by using the hounskull helmets, keeping the men at arms closer to late 1300's.
Apart from Hawkwood I wasn't getting very far though.
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Ian,
Like most replies I don't know of any other Mercenary companies. However what about some of the Komtura of the Teutonics.
Background could be along the lines of Free Company hired by Henry and transplanted to the Baltic where they run riot and have to be reigned in by Komtura troops. Historically there were a few skirmishes between Crusading troops from various countries.
There are some pics for Komtura at this website which may give you ideas they also have some German/Luxemburg coats of arms for the HYW.
http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_3.html
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Ian,
Like most replies I don't know of any other Mercenary companies. However what about some of the Komtura of the Teutonics.
Background could be along the lines of Free Company hired by Henry and transplanted to the Baltic where they run riot and have to be reigned in by Komtura troops. Historically there were a few skirmishes between Crusading troops from various countries.
There are some pics for Komtura at this website which may give you ideas they also have some German/Luxemburg coats of arms for the HYW.
http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_3.html
Cheers Jack. As David was doing Teutonics i wanted to do something different and as Medieval is not my period i don't have a clue. Ive done a load of Archers and a Load of Bill men i wanted to use for my Baratheons (i still will) and they are all Yellow and Black. So this drew me to Flemish or some other German state that may use these colours.
Almost tempted to make something up like Willem of Brugge and his band of Bastards. Various Yellow and Black vests and some Flemish flags :)
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The employment of mercenaries in the Holy Roman Empire was very limited. Political and social conditions differed a lot from France and Italy, and feudal arrays were readily available up to the later 15th century. Occasionally these were bolstered by random people willing to take up arms for money. But we have no clue if and how these were organised, even if they might appear as entities at times – like the Brabaçons, a term originally (about the 12th century) used for soldiers from Brabant but soon to include all sorts of people recruited 'on the border' or 'abroad'. Which could be beyond the next hill, of course. ;)
Thus, any kind of uniformed 'mercenary company' would appear ahistorical anyway, at least in a (Imperial) German context. Troops organised by urban communities – not necessarily citizens but often individually paid substitutes – were probably among the first to wear some kind of uniformed livery, i.e. distinctly coloured vests or jackets over their ordinary cloths and armour. Again, only very late, about mid to late 15th century, we get a clue what these may have looked like. Yet most people would stick to just badges to show their allegiance.
In essence, if you got a 'fantasy' force at hand, just use it as is and call it whatever you like. Most likely there won't be a ready-made crossover, and it's always better and much easier not to force history to fit one's imagination. :)
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There were a lot of mercenary companies around, but usually shortlived and largely unknown to history. Effectively every captain in every army was a mercenary leader of sorts, as by the mid-14th Century onwards contracts between kings and captains merely stipulated the number of men they were to raise, who were usually professional soldiers, or 'new men of war' in search of adventure.
Making up your own is probably both the easiest and possibly the most accurate option truth told. I would imagine (although I don't know for certain) that by and large there might be little to distinguish them as a company, save perhaps some simple field sign. 'Knights' would of course have their coats of arms, but the rank and file not so much. It is of course possible that a captain might purchase a batch of cloth to sell to his men for clothing, which might be your excuse for representing a degree of uniformity within them.
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I had a quick read but I can't see that anybody has mentioned Werner Von Urslingen who was the first leader of the the 'Grand Company' of mercenaries in italy. It did fight against the White Company (probably after Werner's death and before Hawkwood took on the Leadership of the White Company) and he's quite a colourful character.
I think his arms are on the right
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/ZC_580a_078_crop_Urslingen.jpg/220px-ZC_580a_078_crop_Urslingen.jpg)
After Werner retired the Grand company were led by Fra' Moriale, Giovanni Moriale d'Albarno, A french ex-hospitaller followed by another german Konrad von Landau who was the leader of the grand company when they were defeated by the white company at Canturino.
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTkYwVbP35sL_6Zj7-LuMtv83V64iZk4DvrWQMdoA9kew3VY4nv:upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/XIngeram_Codex_120-Landau.jpg/220px-XIngeram_Codex_120-Landau.jpg)
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They sound very interesting. Not suited for my figures i think but id maybe be interested in getting other figures to suit these guys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Company_%28German%29
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There were a lot of mercenary companies around, but usually shortlived and largely unknown to history. Effectively every captain in every army was a mercenary leader of sorts, as by the mid-14th Century onwards contracts between kings and captains merely stipulated the number of men they were to raise, who were usually professional soldiers, or 'new men of war' in search of adventure.
Like said, that appears to me less common in the Empire, at least its transalpine part. Since the 14th century every prince, bishop etc kept records of vassals he could and would call to arms. These were required to answer themselves or send someone else on their expense or, increasingly, provided just the money. Some wouldn't answer at all, of course. Therefore during the 15th century large parts of Germany became 'feud-ridden', as princes encouraged their nobles to harass an enemy instead of having to wage overly expensive full-scale wars themselves. Feuds were also easier to manage and to appease, and there was an incentive for a retainer to steal cattle from his obnoxious neighbour and call it 'good service'. In turn, battles were very rare, and in that event genuine mercenaries were brought in from distant parts of the Empire like Switzerland or Bohemia.
Of course, it all depends on the definition of what makes a man "at arms" a mercenary. Again, since the 14th century most feudal retainers around here were paid a small salary or they were granted privileges in return for their services. Yet that wasn't limited to military service but included fulfilling duties at court and such. Surely, every knight kept a few servants, some of them to follow him into battle, and every castle was garrisoned by – surprisingly few – armed men the owner(s) had to pay for. But were such men mercenaries or members of their master's household?
Sorry for the digression. Couldn't resist. ::)
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Fair points all and in typically Anglocentric fashion I used 'every' instead of 'in England, France and Burgundy'... Germany is indeed a different matter and an area I know very little about.
Mea culpa. :)
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Fair points all and in typically Anglocentric fashion I used 'every' instead of 'in England, France and Burgundy'... Germany is indeed a different matter and an area I know very little about.
Mea culpa. :)
In turn I know very little if anything about English and French custom in that area. :) But since the TO wondered about Flemish/German mercenaries in particular… nerd alert. ::)
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Well im going to do a Band of Germans lead by Konrad von Landau. They will be the Grand Company the will be fighting my friends White company.
Thanks for the help guys. Im now doing all the reading that i can on this guy and see what others knights i can throw in with him for my Lion Rampant force.
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Some more names i found here.
http://listverse.com/2014/06/19/10-swashbuckling-mercenaries-who-ravaged-medieval-europe/
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Cheers mate. Given my love for your dear City is there any infamous Knights or Families that i could look at doing a Retinue for from Hamburg or did they stick mostly to the sea.
Men, we in Hamburg do not have these long tradiition in knighthood. We are all mercahnts only looking for gold and wealth. lol
So, we had enough gold to look for southern mercenaries. ;)
But I will look for more information about soldiers from Hamburg. A famous pirate was Klaus Störtebeker (a Vitalienbruder - Vitalienbrother). So the hanse needed some soldiers to catch the pirates. But this was 1360 to 1401.
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... nerd alert. ::)
Phew! I thought the alarm sounded for me again. lolThanks for the help guys. Im now doing all the reading that i can on this guy and see what others knights i can throw in with him for my Lion Rampant force.
I'm sure 'help' is a polite way of saying 'thanks for not muddying the waters too much this time'. ;)
But hey! You got a starting point at least. :)
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Phew! I thought the alarm sounded for me again. lol
I'm sure 'help' is a polite way of saying 'thanks for not muddying the waters too much this time'. ;)
But hey! You got a starting point at least. :)
Not at all mate. All i ever ask for is a point in the right direction. Before asking this is was stumped and never really had anything to aim for other than generic coloured Knights. Now i have a group with an actual name and some names of knights. With that im now enthused and i last night i based about 20 Claymore figures, base coated and first layer of Armour.
Konrad von Landau and his band of Bastards from Das Große Unternehmen (is that correct?). Ill do some Germans, Scots, Hungarians, English and Flemish looking for some plunder over Europe :)
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Not wishing to derail your enquiries too much, here are my (somewhat later and entirely fictional) Flemish mercenaries - in case they spark any ideas :)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/7/577_23_01_11_2_32_41_0.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/12/577_25_01_13_11_06_36_4.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/14/577_27_09_13_7_59_17.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/15/577_01_11_13_11_45_42.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/15/577_27_10_13_6_14_41.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/7/577_04_12_10_12_34_32_3.jpg)
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I have them saved in my Painting inspiration folder already mate :)
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Konrad von Landau and his band of Bastards from Das Große Unternehmen
German will only cause trouble, lots of inflexions and such. ;) Great Company, Grande Compagnia or its contemporary name Magna Societas will do. (If you must: die Große Kompanie.)
And now that you're aiming for "German" condottieri, here's for a start a list of other famous names (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwäbische_Condottieri).
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German will only cause trouble, lots of inflexions and such. ;) Great Company, Grande Compagnia or its contemporary name Magna Societas will do. (If you must: die Große Kompanie.)
And now that you're aiming for "German" condottieri, here's for a start a list of other famous names (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwäbische_Condottieri).
Ah Christ. For a guy who visits Hamburg once a year you think i should be able to understand German by now.
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Ah, but the difficulty is not in understanding German, it's in getting German to understand you! ;D
(No offence to my eastern neighbours, but the finesses of your Sprache are somewhat hard to get around for us non-natives...)
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Not wishing to derail your enquiries too much, here are my (somewhat later and entirely fictional) Flemish mercenaries - in case they spark any ideas :)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/7/577_23_01_11_2_32_41_0.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/12/577_25_01_13_11_06_36_4.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/14/577_27_09_13_7_59_17.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/15/577_01_11_13_11_45_42.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/15/577_27_10_13_6_14_41.jpg)
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/7/577_04_12_10_12_34_32_3.jpg)
I have been looking for information / inspiration for a WotR Flemish contingent and stumbled upon these rather splendid fellows.
Although you say ‘entirely fictional’ I would be interested to know what your sources were for a staring point for these.
Cheers
JJ
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It was a long time ago now, so I’m not entirely sure lol
I think I just took the colour scheme from the flag of Flanders, which (among a myriad of other flags and arms of Flanders thrown up by Google) included, fairly prominently, a black lion rampant with red claws and tongue, on a yellow field. (Per the banner I painted on this company of mercenaries).
Hence the black and yellow parti-coloured livery coats, with a flash of red across the chest. Probably not very historical, but they look nice, so who cares really? ;)
I’m afraid I’ve long been a shameful advocate for things on the wargames table which look right rather than which necessarily are right :)
I have been looking for information / inspiration for a WotR Flemish contingent and stumbled upon these rather splendid fellows.
Although you say ‘entirely fictional’ I would be interested to know what your sources were for a staring point for these.
Cheers
JJ
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That makes sense to me. I would like to follow your lead there, although I may omit the horizontal red bar 🤔
I like the blue-ish black too …
Cheers
JJ
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Thinking … on this basis, would it be fair to represent Breton mercenaries with a black cross on a white ground?
Cheers
JJ
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Thinking … on this basis, would it be fair to represent Breton mercenaries with a black cross on a white ground?
Cheers
JJ
It's unlikely that foreign mercenaries would be wearing their 'national livery', if such a thing existed.
The best example is Burgundians fighting in England during the WOTR - it is extremely unlikely that they would be wearing Burgundian liveries. So they would be wearing either the liveries of their English employer (perhaps just a sash/bend rather than a full jacket, 'uniformed' on a budget), or no liveries at all.
So that wouid extend to French, Bretons, etc.
I'm assuming you're talking about using Flemish or Breton mercenaries in a WOTR project?
Now of course there is always the 'rule of cool' - if you want your foreign mercenaries to look distinct by giving them unique colour schemes, then go for it!
And putting them in their employer's liveries, i.e. the same as all your English troops, might be a bit boring.
Personally if I was doing this, I'd put the foreign mercenaries in no liveries - meaning they can be in a mix of any old colours you want, looking distinctly un-uniform alongside their slightly smarter English friends in their livery jackets.
Or, if you want to play with some green stuff, you could give them sashes / bends in their employer's livery colours. So if they were fighting for the Yorkists, perhaps some murray & blue sashes. Easily discarded if they suddenly realise they are working for the losing side ; )
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I'm assuming you're talking about using Flemish or Breton mercenaries in a WOTR project?
I am! And your post comprehensively covers all the angles I have considered.
In the midst of around 200 assorted English figures there will be four small contingents (eight figures each) of mercenaries armed with hand guns and crossbows, in addition to the crews for the cannons.
Differentiation and visual interest leans me towards the ‘rule of cool’, but the purist in me isn’t so sure.
I am going to need some captains, so the idea of giving these figures bends appeals to me.
Food for thought, thank you.
Cheers
JJ
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It was a long time ago now, so I’m not entirely sure lol
I think I just took the colour scheme from the flag of Flanders, which (among a myriad of other flags and arms of Flanders thrown up by Google) included, fairly prominently, a black lion rampant with red claws and tongue, on a yellow field. (Per the banner I painted on this company of mercenaries).
Hence the black and yellow parti-coloured livery coats, with a flash of red across the chest. Probably not very historical, but they look nice, so who cares really? ;)
I’m afraid I’ve long been a shameful advocate for things on the wargames table which look right rather than which necessarily are right :)
Imo this is the way to do it. Not completly simular, but what I mostly do. I open google maps. Go to the area I am interested in. Click on the cities, villages and etc.. read the history and what their coat of arms is and re-use part of it for a flag or shield. Thus for Flemish or Brabancons mercenaries I would look to the villages that belonged to the county of Flanders or Duchy of Brabant and use a part of that village/city coat of arms. :).