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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Arthadan on 25 February 2016, 09:07:51 PM

Title: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Arthadan on 25 February 2016, 09:07:51 PM
Check out Tre's last KS:

(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/005/426/098/19893baffa4470c4b5934000bdcd1df0_original.jpg?v=1456430901&w=680&fit=max&auto=format&q=92&s=c79553a714186a0aa3e3eda7ec806032)

(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/005/423/753/a2eea12087dd8336cbb82fdcbb03e9fc_original.png?v=1456408497&w=680&fit=max&auto=format&lossless=true&s=2d3df7086081160b9958002eac15ef91)

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1103158358/warbands-of-the-cold-north-epic-viking-28mm-miniat/description (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1103158358/warbands-of-the-cold-north-epic-viking-28mm-miniat/description)
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Elbows on 25 February 2016, 09:12:39 PM
Ohhhh man...this is something I'd definitely be into.  I hope they scale them up a little bit though, as they're still a bit small compared to most of the lines I use/run.

EDIT: It says 28mm and "Epic" so I'd imagine these may be a little bigger than some of his normal 25's.  I'll probably buy in for at least a box.  Doesn't look like huge savings from the KS but I love Tre's work and would love to support this through to fruition.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Malebolgia on 25 February 2016, 09:12:57 PM
Quote
high quality hard PVC plastic

...no...
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Elbows on 25 February 2016, 09:19:41 PM
...no...

From his vague description it sounds like Renedra will be doing the sprues (my guess).  I'll assume it's normal quality hard plastics.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: audrey on 25 February 2016, 09:24:34 PM
Oh this is tempting. I hope Tre hits his goal.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Elbows on 25 February 2016, 09:41:34 PM
Audrey, let me know if you want to split a pledge.  I'd like one box, but I wouldn't be averse to buying two...I'm more enthused about supporting him so we get more plastic kits.  Vikings are a little low on my necessity list.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Timbor on 25 February 2016, 10:08:46 PM
Yeah, the PVC line made me not interested.  If it was HIPS then I would consider it.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Elbows on 25 February 2016, 10:46:33 PM
If it is PVC who would be making them?  I imagine that's a typo or technical cock-up.  The only two I can think of are Renedra or Wargames Factory...both using normal gaming plastics. 
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: MattW on 25 February 2016, 11:18:54 PM
I think that he's using the same manufacturing process (or maybe the same manufacturer) as Cool Mini or Not did for their board games. Eg Blood Rage, Zombiecide, etc.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Duncan McDane on 25 February 2016, 11:21:59 PM
I wish Tre all the best with this KS but I won't be buying into plastic r&f miniatures.
But, maybe ( and I know to some ears this is heresy ) maybe the metal days are over and it is either plastic in all its different forms or resin ( ditto ).
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: rob_the_robgoblin on 26 February 2016, 12:11:05 AM
PVC is a big no-no...

Tre is incredibly talented, but why the heck would you want to put them into PVC?

However, the fact that Tre is so talented and has spent years proving that he really does understand his customers would imply that he has found a very good supplier. Lets face it, PVC is as diverse as Polyurethane resin. We've had downright terrible stuff and absolutely fantastic stuff, like Blood Rage.

I'm pretty sure I'll always avoid PVC for my own ranges (who knows!), but I guess I trust him to make a sensible decision. :)
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: rob_the_robgoblin on 26 February 2016, 12:12:31 AM
But that is a $40k goal, with no pictures of what we should expect, even concept art.

Hmm. Come on, Tre. :P
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: eMills on 26 February 2016, 12:25:11 AM
But that is a $40k goal, with no pictures of what we should expect, even concept art.

Hmm. Come on, Tre. :P
There is a work in progress shot at the top of the campaign page and reposted literally at the top of this one. Come on Rob... :D

Personally, I'm in. The Blood Rage minis are fantastic, and I'm reasonably certain Tre said it was the same manufacturer for his KS.

~Eric
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Elbows on 26 February 2016, 05:35:55 AM
Hmmm...while I wouldn't hate that material, it makes me question the $45-55 per box of 15.  If I'm paying that much I'd like the best quality possible. 
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: madzerker on 26 February 2016, 06:14:59 AM
I have the blood rage minis and I have heard that Cool mini or not other recent stuff are that quality. If he is using the same as that then it will be good, not like the restic or bones crap pvc.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Hupp n at em on 26 February 2016, 07:05:00 AM
I have the blood rage minis and I have heard that Cool mini or not other recent stuff are that quality. If he is using the same as that then it will be good, not like the restic or bones crap pvc.


I backed Zombicide: Black Plague, and also own the original Zombicide.  While the original's figures certainly aren't on the worst end of the PVC spectrum, I did notice the Z:BP miniatures being a bit firmer and a little crisper in detail.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: beefcake on 26 February 2016, 07:14:59 AM
I'd love to back this. Tre is one of my favourite sculptors. I can't justify that amount though for PVC minis.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Malebolgia on 26 February 2016, 07:25:51 AM
I backed Zombicide: Black Plague, and also own the original Zombicide.  While the original's figures certainly aren't on the worst end of the PVC spectrum, I did notice the Z:BP miniatures being a bit firmer and a little crisper in detail.

But for me the main problem with Zombicide-like PVC's is that mould lines are annoying to remove (even more annoying than with restic!) they don't take sprays well. My Zombicide paintjobs went tacky and glossy and still are. Even after applying multiple coats of brush-on matt varnish. Read that this is due to a chemical process between the plastic and the varnish.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Vermis on 26 February 2016, 11:57:56 AM
The detailing is very, very good, as ever; but the blue... banner? Info panel? ... says five unique designs for the bodies. TBH I wish there was a bit more uniqueness, so they aren't all the speechmaking pose (http://www.emeraldfrog.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/the-stance.jpg) (to put it politely), with knock-knees and hunchbacks.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Hupp n at em on 26 February 2016, 01:13:14 PM
But for me the main problem with Zombicide-like PVC's is that mould lines are annoying to remove (even more annoying than with restic!) they don't take sprays well. My Zombicide paintjobs went tacky and glossy and still are. Even after applying multiple coats of brush-on matt varnish. Read that this is due to a chemical process between the plastic and the varnish.

Any plastic that's not the hard Renedra/GW type, I'd just avoid sprays entirely. They're a problem with Reaper Bones too.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: katie on 26 February 2016, 06:04:03 PM
As posted elsewhere;

The problems seem come from when people use enamel spray paints (Humbrol, Testors). Do NOT use enamel paints on PVC; either as base or as detail or as a final varnish. PVC's plasticisers apparently interact with the alkyd resin binder and prevent it going off (I don't know the exact details of why).

Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Ogrob on 26 February 2016, 06:20:17 PM
They look super sweet for Frostgrave soldiers. Probably the same plastic Privateer Press uses a lot, and while it is more annoying then HIPS, it is perfectly workable.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: qazbnm on 26 February 2016, 09:29:29 PM
Interesting. I like the 'feel' of the RBG figures in general, but I have some issues with the poses. The feet are often just too wide apart. I had to put one figure on a 30mm base just because it didn't fit on a 25. Another issue is that the heads are often way too small, especially on the 'bulkier' figures. Separate heads should make this easier to fix :)
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Mo! on 26 February 2016, 09:30:51 PM
I just dont get why the shields are modelled on the bodies... the scale etc would be awesome for frostgrave but the shields ruin them as thiefs or thugs...
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: rwwin on 27 February 2016, 04:07:59 AM
But that is a $40k goal, with no pictures of what we should expect, even concept art.

Hmm. Come on, Tre. :P

Yes, because that Alien campaign I backed for resin minis with all those pretty pictures turned out so well.  I'll take PVC over the big pile of NOTHING I have so far from that kickstarter.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: mcfonz on 27 February 2016, 10:20:23 AM
Best not to compare Red Box to Defiance who even by the point of that KS were having difficulties.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Vermis on 27 February 2016, 10:37:03 AM
Best not to compare Red Box to Defiance who even by the point of that KS were having difficulties.

I assumed he was talking about Prodos. lol
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: rwwin on 27 February 2016, 03:32:38 PM
I assumed he was talking about Prodos. lol

Bingo.  Stones and glass houses and all that. 

Like or hate PVC as a material, at least Red Box is being realistic.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: mcfonz on 27 February 2016, 05:38:59 PM
Yup . . . . my bad.

Still. I wouldn't compare the two.

For starters Prodos is happily selling product to non backers . . . .
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: The Red Graf on 28 February 2016, 02:29:49 PM
I've asked on the Kickstarter for some clarification on what type of plastic is being used. I suspect it's the same sort of plastic used in all the other sprue based kits. I like my Bloodrage and Zombicide BP miniatures, but I just don't see that material translating into multipart kits.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: eMills on 28 February 2016, 02:54:43 PM
I've asked on the Kickstarter for some clarification on what type of plastic is being used. I suspect it's the same sort of plastic used in all the other sprue based kits. I like my Bloodrage and Zombicide BP miniatures, but I just don't see that material translating into multipart kits.
It's PVC, says so right in the KS Campaign description.

It turns out he is using the same manufacturer as Privateer Press.

As far as it being suitable for multipart models, the Wrath of Kings stuff all looks real good. The weapons on those (WoK) are a different material though (ABS plastic).

~Eric
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: The Red Graf on 28 February 2016, 10:48:06 PM
Yes, this was his response. "Plastic type.... This will NOT be HIPS. This will be cast in HARD PVC similar to Wrath of Kings, and Privateer Press for example. Not bendy plastic or brittle restic."

I have a box set of the Wrath of Kings figures and they seem to be quite nice.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: kaiser on 29 February 2016, 09:56:36 AM
So tempted by this..
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: dieselmonkey on 29 February 2016, 10:53:11 AM
I like Tre's stuff, but looking at the proposed sprue designs, it just doesn't give enough variation, in my mind. 5 body variants and 6 head choices is going to give a bunch of near-identical figures, especially when the shields/arms are cast on.

That sort of thing works fine in uniformed units, but not so much when you want individuals. I'd have preferred separate arms, shields and even a split at waist level to give more posing opportunities.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Cait Sidhe on 29 February 2016, 11:38:35 AM
I like Tre's stuff, but looking at the proposed sprue designs, it just doesn't give enough variation, in my mind. 5 body variants and 6 head choices is going to give a bunch of near-identical figures, especially when the shields/arms are cast on.

That sort of thing works fine in uniformed units, but not so much when you want individuals. I'd have preferred separate arms, shields and even a split at waist level to give more posing opportunities.

Yeah that pretty much sums up my thoughts. They look really good as per Tre's usual sculpts but it's not really a warband so much as an infantry unit with a handful of identical archers thrown in.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: mcfonz on 29 February 2016, 02:09:01 PM
I would sort of dread that sort of multi-part miniature in this material - so many iffy variables.

I certainly think separate shields would have been better. He could then sell shield sprues as add ons and in his store afterwards and allow a little more customization.

I know there is a target sum involved but I also wonder if a smaller warband would have been better. 10 miniatures and instead of an additional 5, a character maybe, which he could have produced via normal methods - at around $35 maybe?

However. if he wants what he is asking for 3 sets of 5 miniatures then I agree there should have been a little more variation.

Another issue with multi-part miniatures is that you tend to have to compromise on something with the cuts unless you make the poses mono-pose still. For example, how many multi-pose multi-part miniatures suffer around the waist and arm joints because of this? Too many.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Duncan McDane on 29 February 2016, 03:20:23 PM
I think it's safe to say this project will not be funded. Less then 2 weeks to go and still only about 30% on it's way with even the people who don't mind the plastic have some sensible criticism ( the fixed shileds e.g. , I would prefer them to be loose too ) I think it's best Tre would pull the plug and rethink his strategy.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Cubs on 29 February 2016, 04:23:55 PM
If he reveals full models with heads before the end I anticipate more backers.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Dilettante Gamer on 29 February 2016, 06:36:11 PM
Have looked at Redbox now and again. How do they scale against Perry and Fireforge historicals?
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Cubs on 29 February 2016, 06:57:56 PM
They're surprisingly delicate. Height-wise I'd say they're comparable with Perry, perhaps even a little smaller. But they're sculpted in 'heroic' proportions, which means the head is small compared to the body (it's often used in comics, to make the torso look bigger). I don't have any Fireforge, but I do have some Gripping Beast models (which tend to have quite large heads by comparison) and they look a little odd next to each other, but not enough to make me swoon. To compensate for the height, I always stack the base with a couple of slate chips or use lipped bases.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: FionaWhite on 29 February 2016, 10:01:00 PM
Have looked at Redbox now and again. How do they scale against Perry and Fireforge historicals?


(http://i.imgur.com/7OWg9Yc.jpg)

Fireforge, part-painted Red Box and Perry, in the usual poor quality my camera provides - note that the Fireforge and Perry have their integrated bases so without those they'd be a bit shorter.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Dilettante Gamer on 29 February 2016, 10:41:36 PM
Thank you Fiona and Cubs!

I like his work and would like to find a place for it in my Westerosi project.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: ZeroTwentythree on 01 March 2016, 02:39:43 AM
Why does it seem like there a move away from HIPS lately? Is it an issue of material cost, or mold cost, or a bit of both, or...?
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: rwwin on 01 March 2016, 05:07:25 AM
I don't think it's a move away from polystyrene (HIPS) as it has never been the lions share of the market.  I think PVC is filling the roll that metal would have in the past. 
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Vermis on 01 March 2016, 06:07:45 PM
I just read the update email from 40 minutes ago:

Quote
Hey everybody,
Well with great regret I am announcing the end of this campaign today. As much as I would like for it to succeed I just do not think it can as it is planned and presented. Things such as they are I would have to remake the existing figures and use more mold space which may or may not exist. Trying to introduce the back catalogue as rewards will only undermine my relationship with retailers and further dilute my regular income source but worst of all would actually undermine the overall goal of this campaign by destroying the margins.
  I want to thank everyone who backed this project for their support and encouragement. I also want to say that I do very deeply regret the disappointment the cacnellation of this campaign must surely cause. I wish things were different but such as they are this campaign will not be able to succeed and I desperately need to get to work on a project that will succeed and start moving forward. I have spent the past year designing, redesigning, sculpting, and resculpting these same figures over and over again. I just do not have the will to do it again right now on the off chance that I will get it right and possibly attract enough backers with interest to fund the project.
 I have not given up on the effort of plastics production. I will find a way to fund a test run on my own to prove the process and my ability to produce great plastic minis. Right now however I am just going to try to fund these offered miniatures in metal and move on to the next project.
Again I thank you all for your encouragement and support and I deeply apologize for the disappointment of this cancellation.
Cheers,
Tre'

 :(
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Elbows on 01 March 2016, 06:40:33 PM
Not overly surprised given the glacial pace it was moving at.  I do hope to see plastics from him at some point in the future though.  That, or bring more of his wonderful metals out. 
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Duncan McDane on 01 March 2016, 07:31:08 PM
Metal. Good decision! Too much plastic already on the market and Tre's miniatures deserve being made into metal.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Cubs on 01 March 2016, 09:10:58 PM
A pity, but then he never showed anyone the finished models, so it's not surprising there weren't many backers.

I think he needs to sit and plan a bit better and get some good advice from people in the industry, because he seems a little undecided about where to go with his ranges. I love the models and the sculpting style, but the business decisions are often a bit off. Perhaps he needs to partner up and leave that to someone else.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: The Red Graf on 02 March 2016, 01:38:54 AM
A pity, but then he never showed anyone the finished models, so it's not surprising there weren't many backers.

I think he needs to sit and plan a bit better and get some good advice from people in the industry, because he seems a little undecided about where to go with his ranges. I love the models and the sculpting style, but the business decisions are often a bit off. Perhaps he needs to partner up and leave that to someone else.

I've had the same thought. Kev White seems to do very well with that model. He just sculpts and leaves the business end to his partners. Tre seems very disorganized. The last couple of Kickstarters included long periods where nothing was happening and he was not communicating. This time it bit him in the ass.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Cubs on 02 March 2016, 10:18:04 PM
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1103158358/warbands-of-the-cold-north-ii-epic-fantasy-viking

Well, he's relaunched the set, but this time they're all in metal and we can see some completed sculpts.

I'm in now. It's not cheap, but I do love his stuff and I'm afraid I tend to buy much more than I get round to painting!
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: dieselmonkey on 02 March 2016, 10:50:21 PM
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1103158358/warbands-of-the-cold-north-ii-epic-fantasy-viking

Well, he's relaunched the set, but this time they're all in metal and we can see some completed sculpts.

I'm in now. It's not cheap, but I do love his stuff and I'm afraid I tend to buy much more than I get round to painting!

I think it's a far better way to do it, and he'll easily hit his KS target with them in metal. They're just not modular enough to work in plastic, IMO.

Tempted to go in for a set myself now!
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Duncan McDane on 02 March 2016, 11:28:59 PM
And EU-friendly too. No excuses not too pledge now  ;).
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Cubs on 04 March 2016, 07:23:08 PM
Funded, and we're into stretch goals territory.
Title: Re: Red Box Games goes plastic!
Post by: Duncan McDane on 05 March 2016, 06:38:31 PM
And they look pretty much the bomb! Backin' this one for sure, and the wolves look too good to miss aswell.