28mm miniatures and skirmish rules for the First Crusade?

[FriendlyNeighbourhoodNerd]

Lately I've been itching for some new miniatures, to branch out into a new period, and one of the things I've been considering is the First Crusade (and maybe Second, mostly because Hospitallers are cool). I'm looking for some skirmish rules to get started, and (most importantly, as I'm more into painting anyways and I'm fine with this just being a "hobby" project and not a gaming one) some miniatures. Looking at 28mm, as I like the scale, I've found quite a few manufacturers and I would like some opinions on them (help, I'm indecisive).

There's the Perry range, both Christians and Muslims, and, while the Perrys have a solid reputation, this one seems to be one of their older ranges, so for those who have any of their stuff for the period, would you recommend them?

There's also the "Outremer" range recently released by Footsore, and the figures do look really good, but they seem a bit expensive to me (as is the case with all Footsore stuff afaik) and more suitable for the Second Crusade from what I understand? (Since the Crusader states were established with the First one and all). They have another range of Arabs too, as well as some Normans. But for those who've bought either from the Outremer range (or supported the Kickstarter), or any Footsore ranges for that matter, do you think they're worth the extra price?

Gripping Beast seem to be the only ones with plastic Arabs, and they have ranges of metals as well; the metals seem a bit rough to me, but perhaps the paintjobs aren't doing them justice, again thoughts and opinions on them are much appreciated.

There's also Victrix and Conquest Games's plastic Normans, both very much suitable for the First Crusade as far as I'm aware. Everyone loves the Victrix Normans it seems, opinions on the Conquest Games sets are less enthusiastic (?) it appears. As usual would love to hear your thoughts on them.

Fireforge seem to be another popular choice, and I do have a box of mounted knights so I've got a bit of a headstart there, but I was a bit disappointed by the quality of the casting and the level of detail on these guys. And they're suitable for at least a century later than the period I'm interested in.

Which one of these (or any other manufacturers for that matter) "should" I go with and why? To be honest there's miniatures I like from everyone's ranges. Also, how do they scale with each other? I don't mind a bit of variation, mostly in the proportions (grossly heroic/realistic, I like both but I'd rather not mix them in the same army) is what I'm asking. Bonus points if they offer some "other" stuff, like perhaps a camp set or casualties, I really like these for some reason.

As for rules, I'm looking for a skirmish ruleset that can be played with, say, 5 or 6 figures a side (which just so happens to be the amount of miniatures in a set of metals, usually I'm an impatient mf). Some light RPG elements are welcome – after all, I've always wanted to roleplay as a band of religious extremists! – but not required or anything.

I've looked into Outremer: Faith and Blood already, but it seems to require a few more models and also is a little more RPG than what I'm looking for. I was thinking maybe hacking Ravenfeast, the rules seem pretty nice and simple. Really I'm not too bothered about the rules, I just wanna push some minis and roll some dice on a table. Not doing that at all for this project is fine too, again I'm more into the painting side of things anyways.

Thanks in advance for any responses! Looking forward to hearing opinions on these miniature ranges.

[jauntyharrison]

The Perry Miniatures 1st crusade range (both the crusaders and the Seljuks) are still my favorite historicals available on the market today. I've been slowly working through a pile of a hundred or two of them. They do often end up with a little bit of flash when they come out of the molds, so I do generally have to sit with an exacto knife and a file to clean some of them up a touch before I think they're ready to take paint. I've yet to have one where the flash was somewhere disasterous to remove (such as the face).
Their horses are the prettiest that can be found anywhere, but those legs are quite delicate so it takes some care to straighten them before gluing them to bases.

Footsore has a couple of ranges from different sculptors, but their late anglo saxons, normans and outremer range all scale well with Perry miniatures. I agree the the price point isn't exactly where I would like it to be, but they sometimes have something like "Saga Warband" deals which will bring the price point down a touch if you buy a decent number.

The muslim forces from the Outremer range look fine for the First through Third crusade. The crusaders from their Outremer range are wearing some great helms, I wouldn't use them before the 13th century. The Footsore Normans work for the first crusade and they fill a few gaps in the Perry miniatures line (the archers in the Perry 1st crusade stuff don't have the look of franks, I think they're Greek or Armenian auxiliaries with composite bows). I don't think their horses are quite as pretty.

Mentioning a few other metal choices that I've had in hand. Gripping beast does metal Normans, they are bigger than perry and footsore. I don't much like how they're sculpted. Wargames Foundry has some Normans and Saxons that are nice sculpts. They are quite big, however, and spendy.

For plastics. >>>
I find Fireforge to be fiddly to assemble (shield arms tend to end up sticking out ways that don't look naturalistic to me. Lances tend to be pointed in awkward angles too. I don't think their knights work too well before the 13th century.

Conquest Games has some older normans which are quite unlovely. Their plastic archers aren't so bad, but scale a bit weirdly with anything else. They have some later period knights which I rather like for 13th century cavalry. They have a very Maciejowsky Bible look to them, and they assemble and pose more naturalistically than the fireforge knights. (Worth mentioning, conquest also has some cute metal character models for robin hood stuff)

Gripping beast's plastic Arabs aren't too bad. The only think I'd dock against them is that the Arab infantry assembles dreadfully as archers. I rather like the Gripping beast dark age archers, even though it's just three poses. It greatly benefits from stealing heads from some other gripping beast plastic sets.

The Victrix normans have been generally well reviewed, but personally I don't like how they sculpt mail. Maybe I'm the singular dissenting opinion about this? It just looks uncanny to me. The rings seem to large, too regular.  Anyway, I don't think any plastic miniatures do mail well. The last point I'll bring up about Victrix against any other historical range is just that they're awfully big.

Oh, final mention, V&V does pretty miniatures in resin. They're also quite big.

Ok, one last note that deserves to be its own little paragraph. Spears are going to be a nuisance whichever you pick. Plastic spears look chunky, and are prone to break. I think all of the metal miniatures I've mentioned come with cast pewter spears that aren't really serviceable either. Wire spears from somewhere like Northstar are much more pleasant!

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

Metal for 1st Crusade - also Crusader miniatures are nice in a slightly older, very easy to paint style.  First Corps aren't bad.  The latter also have figures suitable for 3rd Crusade.

I would agree that Fireforge and Conquest plastrics are a bit meh.

[SJWi]

I'd agree with the earlier comments. I wouldn't bother with plastics unless using the Gripping Beast Arabs to "bulk out" a force. I have both Gripping Beast and Perry metals and much prefer Perry. Yes they are one of their older ranges but IMHO still stand the test of time!  The Beast ones are quite crude in comparison.  The Perry Crusader and Seljuk/Arab forces are pretty well complete with Western European, Turcopole and Armenian troops as well as Seljuks and Arabs. They even include Hospitallers which allows you to go beyond the 1st Crusade itself. The ranges also have packs of clerics, civilians and casualties which add that little bit extra. Little Big Men also produce some very nice shield decals for both sides.

As for rules what about SAGA and its "Age of Crusades" supplement? Not cheap taken together but  they have a good reputation.       

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

With so few figures on each side, possibly something like A Song of Blades and Heroes (or a Song of Arthur and Merlin) or Fistful of Lead, Might and Melee.  Reduced figure Lion Rampant (a 12 figure unit might be represented as 4 figures with 3 "hit points" each).
The first options give you a little RPG flavour.

Lords and Servants always looked interesting but might be for a later time period.  Perhaps someone could comment o these rules.

[tikitang]

I was thinking maybe hacking Ravenfeast, the rules seem pretty nice and simple.

This would be my recommendation. I also hacked Ravenfeast for Crusaders and had a great time with it.

[FriendlyNeighbourhoodNerd]

Thanks y'all, I think I'll probably go with some Perrys then. Also I'll check out FFoL Might and Melee. I hadn't thought about Lion Rampant with reduced model units, that is an option as well (although I would assume at some point it becomes silly, like a 2 model unit with 6HP for each model

[SJWi]

By the way if you look at Lion Rampant Wargames Vault sell a "Crusades" Lion Rampant add-on volume for just over $12. Although aimed at 1st Edition Lion Rampant it contains a whole host of good stuff. 

[tikitang]

Here's a link to that:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/331054/Lion-Rampant-The-Crusader-States

[jauntyharrison]

If you're hunting for something on the smaller end of the skirmish spectrum. Osprey also published Outremer: Faith and Blood.

I'd describe it as a Mordheim style game, with around a dozen figures per team and an emphasis on individual models gaining XP and injuries over a series of linked scenarios.

[LouieN]

Hello,

Luck on your project.

I have to give a shout out the the Foundry Norman range.  These are good for units of the First Crusade.  Look for the newer Norman line. I was super impressed with the detail and scuplting.  They had lots of character great for paiting. 

They fit well with Crusader.  Bulkier than Perry

[bluewillow]

A big fan of the Perry miniatures range for this period, and they would be my first choice.

Personally I prefer the third crusade as more colour and of course kings, hospitallers and templars.

Cheers
Matt

[Codsticker]

I agree on the Perry's; although the range is older they are still wonderful figures, however.... I recently just received some of Footsore's Forces of Islam figures from their Baron's War: Outremer range and they are really nice: link.